EPTI would have expected that at least one of the A-list SC1 pro's to switch by now but other than MC and Fruitdealer ( who are both GSL champions now ), nobody has switched and from what I know neither of them could be considered A-list SC1 players at any point in their SC1 careers.
Why aren't more Brood War pro-gamers switching?
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
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mindspike
Canada1902 Posts
I would have expected that at least one of the A-list SC1 pro's to switch by now but other than MC and Fruitdealer ( who are both GSL champions now ), nobody has switched and from what I know neither of them could be considered A-list SC1 players at any point in their SC1 careers. | ||
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The Icon
Canada111 Posts
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Sid(TB)
United States314 Posts
edit* ^ ya contracts as well | ||
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Juxx
325 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:13 Pawshter wrote: because all of the well known players are making plenty of money, and theres probably no reason to switch. also, alot of people still like BW. i love BW <3 | ||
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DragoonPK
3259 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
Since when are JulyZerg, NaDa, and SlayersBoxer not A class players in BW? | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
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Thegilaboy
United States2018 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:21 JiYan wrote: if you've been with your girlfriend for 12 years and you truly love her, would you throw that away for a stranger with jessica alba's looks? bad analogy, this is their source of income not their spouse. | ||
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Krohm
Canada1857 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:21 JiYan wrote: if you've been with your girlfriend for 12 years and you truly love her, would you throw that away for a stranger with jessica alba's looks? Oh God yes Jessica Alba is amazing. Also everyone has pretty much said everything that needs to be said. It's a risky venture for a A-Class BW player. | ||
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Kazzabiss
1006 Posts
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zerious
Canada3803 Posts
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kaisr
Canada715 Posts
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Tyree
1508 Posts
Cant blame them for sticking with it, making any decent money in eSports is not that easy, not even in Korea the land of eSports. | ||
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theotherone
United States1 Post
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ThatsNoMoon
Mexico344 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:23 Fa1nT wrote: Because if someone like Flash switched to SC2, he would not be as hard to beat as in SC2. Why switch to a game where you have less chance to win? I think that he would still be just as hard to beat if he switched. He is Flash after all. | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:22 iCCup.Diamond wrote: BW has more $ in prizes and monthly salaries then SC2. Since when are JulyZerg, NaDa, and SlayersBoxer not A class players in BW? We haven't seen much of BoxeR or July in ages. Hell, NaDa didn't play a pro league match in a long time too. So yeah, they haven't been the cream of the crop for a while now. :/ BW Pros have no reason to switch with the guarantees on their contracts. I'm sure we'll see more transitioning in due time. As it stands, BW is still healthy. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:30 theotherone wrote: because alot of people still think broodwar is as awsome as it really is User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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11cc
Finland561 Posts
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11cc
Finland561 Posts
and ofcourse this.. they are pro bw players because they love the game... | ||
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TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
So from what I understand, its just delaying the inevitable. | ||
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fainez
United States91 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:40 11cc wrote: SC2 needs proleague. The prize pool is good in gsl but bw progamers (most of them) are dependent of regular salary that pl provides. Or atleast this is my understanding. There is going to be a team league in 2011, but It's only once in the year, so I don't know if thats as often as BW. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
I love watching brood war; its a nightmare to play after playing SC2. | ||
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
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Meldrath
United States620 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:42 11cc wrote: and ofcourse this.. they are pro bw players because they love the game... Wish Wc3 players could say the same ;( But money > love and passion after all | ||
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EliteAzn
United States661 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:51 junemermaid wrote: I love watching brood war; its a nightmare to play after playing SC2. I agree with the 2nd part of that statement... | ||
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SolidusR
United States217 Posts
More than that though, from what I hear most of these pros are only dominant because of their APM compared to average mortals. They know this APM won't translate into victory in SC2, so likely they know they won't be champions at SC2. Different skillsets I suppose, when you lose in SC2 it's usually not because your hand wasn't flying around the keyboard at lightspeed. I doubt any of them would see the same level of success they enjoy now if they switched to SC2, because SC1 seems much easier to understand whereas SC2 is new and intimidating with its undeveloped strategies and questionably balanced state. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
I personally think BW will still remain number 1 until Legacy of the Void comes out and, presumably, SC2 is finally "done" and balanced. | ||
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riverkim09
United States291 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
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riverkim09
United States291 Posts
On December 21 2010 08:30 krndandaman wrote: lol so true. jaedong and flash and others alike just have an amazing work ethic and rts understanding... Yep... Honestly, Flash Jaedong and Bisu will destroy people in SC2. The SC2 pros now should get ahead while they can. | ||
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kwkwookw
218 Posts
also, you have to remember that from a progamer's perspective, sc1 isn't just a game. it's their job and career. it's what brings them food to the table. hence you don't just switch to sc2 because it's "new" or the "next big thing" like many casual gamers do. and lastly, like the guy above said, i doubt you'd see jinro or idra in code s if players like flash, fantasy, jaedong, bisu, stork, zero, etc. played. sure it's a different game but they have the skillsets to be good at rts games other than sc1. | ||
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saltygrapes
181 Posts
why would lebron play football if he's already the best player in the NBA? is having a snowball fight with pitching great randy johnson a bad idea? | ||
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brentsen
1252 Posts
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
On December 21 2010 08:07 SolidusR wrote: The money is the biggest reason, no reason to gamble it away if you're already at the top. More than that though, from what I hear most of these pros are only dominant because of their APM compared to average mortals. They know this APM won't translate into victory in SC2, so likely they know they won't be champions at SC2. Different skillsets I suppose, when you lose in SC2 it's usually not because your hand wasn't flying around the keyboard at lightspeed. I doubt any of them would see the same level of success they enjoy now if they switched to SC2, because SC1 seems much easier to understand whereas SC2 is new and intimidating with its undeveloped strategies and questionably balanced state. I bet that Flash or Jaedong would be pretty damned dominant in SC2, hell Grack and others in Korea have said they fear the day when the current titans switch. Their APM isn't the only thing that sets them apart from the other BW players. These men have prodigious ability and creativity, they understand how to win RTS games at the most complex level. I don't think they will suck at SC2 lol. But really, if I was a BW pro-gamer I would switch once SC2 gets a more stable pro-scene. The maps are still really hectic, same with the game itself. BW is so well understood compared to SC2, it is only a matter of time before they are equal, but I wouldn't switch until SC2 is just as well understood as BW, or until my contract ran out xD | ||
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chobopeon
United States7342 Posts
On December 21 2010 08:46 saltygrapes wrote: why would flash/jaedong/etc. switch to SC2 when they're already the best at what they do? why would lebron play football if he's already the best player in the NBA? is having a snowball fight with pitching great randy johnson a bad idea? haha when it becomes the financially sound decision, theyll switch. no reason to do it now. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
afaik only mvp was top bw player .... | ||
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UberThing
Great Britain410 Posts
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JustQuitWarcraftIII
United States679 Posts
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
If you are talking b-teamers it's because they are also under contract and can be sued if they break that contract to switch games. The only players who we should see witching over are b-teamers who are off contract and think that they can make more money playing SC2. | ||
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Niji87
United States112 Posts
On December 21 2010 08:07 SolidusR wrote: The money is the biggest reason, no reason to gamble it away if you're already at the top. More than that though, from what I hear most of these pros are only dominant because of their APM compared to average mortals. They know this APM won't translate into victory in SC2, so likely they know they won't be champions at SC2. Different skillsets I suppose, when you lose in SC2 it's usually not because your hand wasn't flying around the keyboard at lightspeed. I doubt any of them would see the same level of success they enjoy now if they switched to SC2, because SC1 seems much easier to understand whereas SC2 is new and intimidating with its undeveloped strategies and questionably balanced state. Hoooooooooly shit. That's an incredibly ignorant statement. You really, honestly believe that SC1 professional players are only good because they have high APM? Have you ever looked at Liquipedia I, the BW Liquipedia, and read the basic strategies in that let alone the advanced ones? Have you ever watched professional BW players play? Here, watch some videos of BW. BW is HEAVY on multi-tasking. Multi-tasking takes immense critical thinking to do right, not just handspeed. Seriously, though? I mean you have access to a fuckton of BW material on this site. It's literally a few clicks away. No typing required. There is no reason for that kind of ignorance. I just don't understand how this kind of stuff still keeps popping up everywhere. Anyway, on-topic. I think it's pretty simple as to why they're not switching over. Paychecks. Right now they get paychecks. ALL (A-Class) of them get paycecks. Albeit that some don't get amazing paychecks. On top of that they get a good bit of fame. There's no reason to switch to SC2, especially since it's an undeveloped eSports game. Up-and-coming doesn't equal established. | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
On December 21 2010 09:27 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Stork was offered a lot of money for SC2 but he just wanted to stay with his Khan family. Do you have a source? Otherwise this is just trolling and grounds for a ban. Furthermore, saying that he was offered a lot of money is totally meaningless, since Stork makes a lot of money playing BW, and is an S-class gamer with the ability to win championships on top of that. Stork is most likely still on contract as well, meaning that, once again, he could be sued if he breaks that contract. | ||
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SamGamgee
79 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
if sc2 is there to stay it'll still be there when they finish their bw careers and they can switch over. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 21 2010 09:52 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Do you have a source? Otherwise this is just trolling and grounds for a ban. Furthermore, saying that he was offered a lot of money is totally meaningless, since Stork makes a lot of money playing BW, and is an S-class gamer with the ability to win championships on top of that. Stork is most likely still on contract as well, meaning that, once again, he could be sued if he breaks that contract. Stork hasn't been in a great position to win a OSL or a MSL for a long time. You can say that about almost every Protoss. Until now. Just because the guy is on contract doesn't mean he cannot retire and make the switch. There are plenty examples of this and it's standard procedure. -_- I'm sure there are many rumors floating around and leave it to the mods please. I hear, backdoor moderating is highly frowned upon and can also result in a you know what. :/ | ||
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Omigawa
United States1556 Posts
Now, for all of the mere mortals playing BW the economic argument makes sense. Even in real sports, salaries are what determine where the athletes play... if there was no salary in the NBA/NFL then the lower tier guys would go play ball in Europe (assuming the EU leagues did have a salary). Why would you risk not getting paid (even if the performance-based payout of the hypothetical NBA/NFL is greater) when you could make a stable salary in a less volatile? And of course the comparisons aren't really valid because NBA/NFL is equivalent to BW and European basketball/NFL Europa (even though it no longer exists) are equivalent to SC2 in terms of their pro scene. However, I think this argument will become less valid as the pro scene for SC2 develops and team begin to pick up sponsors. | ||
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riverkim09
United States291 Posts
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
Potential switches in the forseeable future would be B-teamers, oldtimers such as reach, yellow, xellos etc, and those that don't put out great results, such as MVP - decent, but not good enough to win anything but random PL matches. Big names switching won't happen until SC2 is established with a proper league of its own. Might even require being on a network, such as MBCGame or Ongamenet. | ||
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TurtlePerson2
United States218 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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Essentia
1150 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
I play SC2, because i never got pro at BW, but it's a cheap under-performing knockoff of the original in my opinion | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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calvinL
Canada416 Posts
On December 21 2010 10:31 StarStruck wrote: Stork hasn't been in a great position to win a OSL or a MSL for a long time. You can say that about almost every Protoss. Until now. Just because the guy is on contract doesn't mean he cannot retire and make the switch. There are plenty examples of this and it's standard procedure. -_- I'm sure there are many rumors floating around and leave it to the mods please. I hear, backdoor moderating is highly frowned upon and can also result in a you know what. :/ Thats definitely not true. He was just 1 cannon away from getting to the final of the last OSL, just right under Flash and Jaedong. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
EDIT: Here you go: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100970 Then again, it's all speculation. That would be around $173,200 USD at the moment, not considering bonuses. That is for Jaedong by the way. I'm pretty sure Flash makes more. I cannot remember precisely, but it's probably around $250k. | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
They are good at BW, BW pays them well | ||
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Omigawa
United States1556 Posts
On December 21 2010 10:44 krndandaman wrote: no? Flash and Jaedong, iirc make over or close to $100k per year from salary. (someone confirm this for me, but either way it's much more than the 1st place prize for GSL) also, these 2 are usually the ones who win MSL/OSL which is another $35,000 or so for each one. 4 msl/osl's per year, yearly salary, established bw fanbase, other sponsorships, team you've been with for years, game you've been playing for years (and know inside and out), etc. it's a no brainer that Jaedong,Flash,Bisu,Stork make so much more guaranteed and potential money from BW than GSL. Assuming the $100k (USD I assume?) is in fact true, they have a much higher earning potential in GSL. 1st place is $87k, 2nd is 35k... so all they would have to do is make sure they finish in the same spots they have in BW (the harder game) and they would triple or quadruple their earnings. IntoTheRainbow earned more than what you are telling me Flash and Jaedong make... and he did that in the span of two months. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3047 Posts
On December 21 2010 10:33 Omigawa wrote: All the people saying it's economics, that just doesn't make sense, at least for the very top level players in BW. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork would be at the top of SC2 within a matter of months, and with GSL's million won prize pool there's no question that they would stand to make a LOT more money than they currently are. How are you so sure with that bolded statement there? There's no guarantee that they will succeed with SC2. Sure, they have an advantage over other people due to massively high APM, but we're talking about SC2. It's a brand new game, which means brand new playing field. And to be honest, the barrier between amateur and pro in SC2 is slim; anyone can become a pro and anyone can become an amateur. And I don't see this barrier getting bigger and bigger, at least for next couple of years (if the leagues still go on by then). | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:36 wintergt wrote: Has there been a decline in interest (and sponsorships) for BW in Korea lately? Well, there were twelve Progamer teams last season of Proleague, now there are ten. Overall, however, Brood War still seems fine. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:27 Mogwai wrote: bad analogy, this is their source of income not their spouse. bad analogy, she looks like jessica alba | ||
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kwkwookw
218 Posts
On December 21 2010 10:33 Omigawa wrote: All the people saying it's economics, that just doesn't make sense, at least for the very top level players in BW. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork would be at the top of SC2 within a matter of months, and with GSL's million won prize pool there's no question that they would stand to make a LOT more money than they currently are. Now, for all of the mere mortals playing BW the economic argument makes sense. Even in real sports, salaries are what determine where the athletes play... if there was no salary in the NBA/NFL then the lower tier guys would go play ball in Europe (assuming the EU leagues did have a salary). Why would you risk not getting paid (even if the performance-based payout of the hypothetical NBA/NFL is greater) when you could make a stable salary in a less volatile? And of course the comparisons aren't really valid because NBA/NFL is equivalent to BW and European basketball/NFL Europa (even though it no longer exists) are equivalent to SC2 in terms of their pro scene. However, I think this argument will become less valid as the pro scene for SC2 develops and team begin to pick up sponsors. of course it makes sense. gsl's million won prize pool is only for a tournament. although jd, flash do have a high chance of winning, if all the other top bw progamers transition, even if it's them, there's no guarantee they will win it. and the 87,000 is only for first prize only. surely you know that the difference in prize money between 1st and second place, and between the finalists and the semi finalists, and between the semi finalists and the quarter finalists, is huge. basically, if you don't make the finals of the gsl, it's almost impossible to make a sustainable living out of the gsl. people are so flabbergasted by the gsl prize money but they don't look at the big picture. contrast this with the contracts for players like flash fantasy, etc. flash makes around 160,000 a year in contract alone. this, in addition to personal sponsorships, and also tournament prize money could add up to 250,000 a year. fantasy, stork, jd, make less but not by much. i think you get the picture. you may gloat how the gsl has the largest prize money ever, more than any bw starleague in the past. and that is correct. but does that mean there is more money in sc2 progaming? no way. there is no established infrastructure which makes sc2 progaming more viable. it was like this when professional bw first started. now it has blossomed into what it's become today. the same will most likely happen with sc2. but until then, of course sc1 top progamers won't transition over to sc2. | ||
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calvinL
Canada416 Posts
On December 21 2010 10:33 Omigawa wrote: All the people saying it's economics, that just doesn't make sense, at least for the very top level players in BW. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork would be at the top of SC2 within a matter of months, and with GSL's million won prize pool there's no question that they would stand to make a LOT more money than they currently are. Now, for all of the mere mortals playing BW the economic argument makes sense. Even in real sports, salaries are what determine where the athletes play... if there was no salary in the NBA/NFL then the lower tier guys would go play ball in Europe (assuming the EU leagues did have a salary). Why would you risk not getting paid (even if the performance-based payout of the hypothetical NBA/NFL is greater) when you could make a stable salary in a less volatile? And of course the comparisons aren't really valid because NBA/NFL is equivalent to BW and European basketball/NFL Europa (even though it no longer exists) are equivalent to SC2 in terms of their pro scene. However, I think this argument will become less valid as the pro scene for SC2 develops and team begin to pick up sponsors. Check up on the salaries of S-class players before you make your claims. S class players like Jaedong and Flash have guaranteed salaries that are 200+ million won, and Flash from all his league wins made 500+ million won. If you win EVERYTHING in GSL 2011, you only get around 240 million won. However after first place, the prizes get cut down so much more. | ||
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HorstSchlemmer
Germany114 Posts
So NaDa made $600k in 3 years, that's like winning 15 times the new Code S tournament. I don't think anyone will be that dominant in the near future in SC2. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On December 21 2010 10:38 TurtlePerson2 wrote: Perhaps some people will never make the switch. Starcraft could be like Counter-Strike, which has half the community still playing CS 1.6 while the other half play the more recent CS:Source. I would argue that the CS1.6/CSS split has hurt Counter-Strike as an e-sport. Competitive players don't want to leave CS 1.6 because they feel that it is more fair to skilled players (sound familiar). Except that as soon as there was money in CSS, all the best American 1.6 players left for that. CSS died, of course, but $$$ was more than enough to draw the best players over. | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
On December 21 2010 10:50 Omigawa wrote: Assuming the $100k (USD I assume?) is in fact true, they have a much higher earning potential in GSL. 1st place is $87k, 2nd is 35k... so all they would have to do is make sure they finish in the same spots they have in BW (the harder game) and they would triple or quadruple their earnings. IntoTheRainbow earned more than what you are telling me Flash and Jaedong make... and he did that in the span of two months. maybe more potential to win, but less guaranteed overall. its more of a risk | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
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koOma
Norway462 Posts
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HorstSchlemmer
Germany114 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
shes better looking than jessica alba, has three computer based uni degrees and the most pimped out sc capable pc youve ever seen a lady have | ||
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psycow
55 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13069 Posts
Now lets see in SC2 we got BoxeR, NaDa, July who were really bad at the Start of SC2 and didnt even played a single Game in ages. So they had few options : retire, be a coach, transition Into SC2. It was logical for them to transition with SC2. And lol with the ppl here that are like " hmm Flash,JD,Bisu,Stork cant really be sure that they will own SC2 " . The very best players right now are MC aka  IrOn and  ZergBong aka NesTea who were known as the worst of the worst for their respectable races in BW. And together with the rest who i dont even recognize are the owning SC2. Can you imagine what will happen if the best of the best start playing? | ||
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
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dagene
United States75 Posts
IrOn being known as "the worst of the worst" protoss in BW is kind of a stretch | ||
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NeVeR
1352 Posts
Easy answer, yes? | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On December 21 2010 11:21 dagene wrote: IrOn being known as "the worst of the worst" protoss in BW is kind of a stretchDamned straight. Let's have some respect for PokJu. | ||
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jdsarge
United States308 Posts
But seriously, I'm gonna have to agree with most of the broodwar fans here. SC2 is too young, and too cheesy to be considered a viable career path for established pros who have a contracted salary. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2010 10:50 Omigawa wrote: Assuming the $100k (USD I assume?) is in fact true, they have a much higher earning potential in GSL. 1st place is $87k, 2nd is 35k... so all they would have to do is make sure they finish in the same spots they have in BW (the harder game) and they would triple or quadruple their earnings. IntoTheRainbow earned more than what you are telling me Flash and Jaedong make... and he did that in the span of two months. The $100,000 USD figure is an underestimate. Flash stated in an interview once that his salary was on the order ot $200,000-$300,000 USD. Also, bear in mind that this is their SALARY. It's entirely independent of their tournament winnings in MSL/OSL. Anything they make there is in addition to their salary. | ||
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gurrpp
United States437 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:21 JiYan wrote: if you've been with your girlfriend for 12 years and you truly love her, would you throw that away for a stranger with jessica alba's looks? Yessssss, unless she was Megan Fox. Then I would have to think about it a little. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On December 21 2010 11:20 Redmark wrote: You know, there's always these people trying to bring the SC2 vs. BW debate into this, and it's just getting frustrating. Not only is it incredibly old, it's also irrelevant; I highly doubt that if the money dried up in the BW scene anyone would not switch because they personally like BW better. i think the more pertinent questions is this: if both games had their money "dry up", would the progamers switch over? | ||
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Nimic
Norway1360 Posts
It's also what I hope. SC2 is "my" game, and I want the best players playing it. If that means the foreigners will have to be knocked back down for a while, so be it. Either way I think the foreigners and the koreans will be much more evenly skilled in SC2, simply because the popularity of the game will bring more opportunities to foreigners that are similar to koreans in BW (and now SC2). Again, I might be completely wrong. This is the internet, after all. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On December 21 2010 11:31 TheYango wrote: The $100,000 USD figure is an underestimate. Flash stated in an interview once that his salary was on the order ot $200,000-$300,000 USD. Also, bear in mind that this is their SALARY. It's entirely independent of their tournament winnings in MSL/OSL. Anything they make there is in addition to their salary. I thought most of the prize money went to the sponsor? | ||
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Weedk
United States507 Posts
On December 21 2010 11:10 LoLAdriankat wrote: Well the thing is that KESPA is a large corporation seeking profit while the teams that play in their tournaments are sponsored by large corporations who view progamers as investments. Prize pools in Starcraft 2 will never be big unless it's like BW progaming. I'm really sick of this misconception. The corporations sponsoring the teams are the ones looking for profit. KeSPA uses the profit it makes to reinvest into the scene, hence the term non-profit organization. | ||
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kamikami
France1057 Posts
On December 21 2010 11:41 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I thought most of the prize money went to the sponsor? No, where the hell did you get that ? We're in 2010, not 2001. Flash gave all his prize money to his parents. | ||
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kinetic_skink
Australia125 Posts
Eventually there won't be enough new BW progamers to sustain the scene. | ||
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w0mble
United Kingdom27 Posts
cs1.6/css is a different matter because both games were played semi-pro/casually until CGS hit, which made about 80css players able to earn a living with a salary from it, during that period there were a few good tournaments and people in css were happy. personally, I feel that SC2 isn't too cheesy and we just need to get better at scouting and trying less risky build orders, i was watching the EG masters event yesterday and saw a "good player" lose to a cloaked banshee rush because they didnt build a robotics facility, its ridiculous. however, i agree to the point that the game is in a state of flux and its too variable for a pro to switch, everytime i play sc2 i feel that the tempo and dynamics of the game have changed. My last 6 games took over 30minutes in Real Time each compared to 7-14minute games a couple of weeks ago. especially in pvp. | ||
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benjammin
United States2728 Posts
if GSL sustains that kind of money, it's only a matter of time. it's all about money | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On December 21 2010 11:34 Nimic wrote: I think the simple fact that SC2 is already a great deal more popular in everywhere that isn't Korea than BW was (as far as I know, I might be talking out of my ass), it's only inevitable that the best will eventually play SC2 instead of BW. There will just be more money in it. That's my prediction, anyway. It's also what I hope. SC2 is "my" game, and I want the best players playing it. If that means the foreigners will have to be knocked back down for a while, so be it. Either way I think the foreigners and the koreans will be much more evenly skilled in SC2, simply because the popularity of the game will bring more opportunities to foreigners that are similar to koreans in BW (and now SC2). Again, I might be completely wrong. This is the internet, after all. i think the problem with sc2 right now is the skill level is so low. I'm not saying this to disparage the players or their efforts, but strictly cuz the game is so young, the strategies are still in their infant stages and as such are not fun to watch. All the practice time the players put in only regurgitate the same juvenile gameplay. And that is why people still prefer watching BW, which leads to more sponsorship and stable salaries for players. WHat do I mean when I say strategies aren't developed? The other day I was watching MC vs Jinro on my computer and I think it was OSL Ro32 on my TV. And as I watched Jinro lose game after game to early game harass, I couldn't help but thinking: this is the equivalent of watching a BW player lose to a single zealot poke, or to a reaver drop or a DT rush. In pro BW, you rarely see players get surprised by an opening and lose the entire game, because the lengthy history of the game has created tactics that asses and counter their damage. So say a Protoss pokes with their zealot: Terran has the barracks supply base formation that allows a marine to counter the zealot. Or let's say it's PvZ and a Protoss goes proxy two gate and rushes zealots. Zerg knows how to stack drones (as Jaedong showed us in his game on Coliseum vs Lucifer about two years ago) and stop such an attack. But in that Jinro MC series, Jinro seemed utterly surprised at the timing and the micro of just a few Zealots or Sentries, game after game. I don't blame Jinro or the "weakness" of Terran or whatnot; I blame the nascent development of the game and the non-discovery of tactics that will be developed someday to stop such silliness. It's kinda like in Chess. When the Sicilian Opening was first made in the 17th century, it was used as a novelty opening and eventually derided as useless. But in the 1940's and 50's, it made a huge comeback and completely changed the "metagame". White was uncomfortable playing such orthodox positions, and it wasn't for some time they developed a good strategy against it. SC2, right now, is like those White players surprised by a Sicilian opening. They don't know what to do not cuz they're not trying but because they haven't had time to find it. And really, it's just not fun watching players slugging away unawares-- needless to say, on that day I soon lost interest in my computer and ended up watching my TV | ||
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Nimic
Norway1360 Posts
On December 21 2010 11:54 d_so wrote: i think the problem with sc2 right now is the skill level is so low. I'm not saying this to disparage the players or their efforts, but strictly cuz the game is so young, the strategies are still in their infant stages and as such are not fun to watch. All the practice time the players put in only regurgitate the same juvenile gameplay. And that is why people still prefer watching BW, which leads to more sponsorship and stable salaries for players. Good post, but I just wanted to focus a bit on this bit. Again, I don't have any sort of actual numbers, but I can't imagine BW has a bigger fan base worldwide than SC2, even as young a game as it is. It might be (probably is) much bigger in Korea still, but BW isn't exactly a big game in the west anymore. Personally, I was never really a BW player or fan, and I find BW, professional or not, completely unwatchable. At the same time I really enjoy watching good players play SC2. | ||
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whitey_
Canada23 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3047 Posts
On December 21 2010 11:59 Nimic wrote: Good post, but I just wanted to focus a bit on this bit. Again, I don't have any sort of actual numbers, but I can't imagine BW has a bigger fan base worldwide than SC2, even as young a game as it is. It might be (probably is) much bigger in Korea still, but BW isn't exactly a big game in the west anymore. Personally, I was never really a BW player or fan, and I find BW, professional or not, completely unwatchable. At the same time I really enjoy watching good players play SC2. And I find SC2, professional or not, completely unwatchable. Moral of the story: Does it really matter if one person finds it unwatchable or not? Back on the main point; SC2 scene is growing in Korea, and there's no doubt about it. Even less fans started showing up to the BW matches due to this. However, I don't think anyone can really tell where Korea is heading until we see the finals of the current individual leagues; the number of fans at the finals + comparison to GSL final attendees will show us how much things have changed. (And if you want to bring-in fomos argument about how BW scene is dying and stuff, go ahead. Just know that you're quoting from the most anti-KeSPA/BW biased community atm (maybe pgr21 is worse)) | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:22 iCCup.Diamond wrote: BW has more $ in prizes and monthly salaries then SC2. Since when are JulyZerg, NaDa, and SlayersBoxer not A class players in BW? Since they started losing. | ||
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pyro19
6575 Posts
And i don"t get why People act as if BW S class players will wipe the Floor with the existing SC2 Pros , for all we know Jaedong could get Marine/SCV allined every single game he plays :D . | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:28 Kazzabiss wrote: Pretty sure Cool wasn't an "A-lister" and MC only might have been U wanna take a look at MC's record in his gaming career??? he is like a C or D class player in bw..... so i dont really think sc2 rewards the most skilled player though | ||
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sLiMpoweR
United States430 Posts
On December 21 2010 07:21 JiYan wrote: if you've been with your girlfriend for 12 years and you truly love her, would you throw that away for a stranger with jessica alba's looks? quite simply, yes. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
Then you're a bit of a tool | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
The StarCraft pros who left Brood War to play a game that is easier are the players who had nothing to lose or who were completely washed up. | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On December 21 2010 10:50 Omigawa wrote: Assuming the $100k (USD I assume?) is in fact true, they have a much higher earning potential in GSL. 1st place is $87k, 2nd is 35k... so all they would have to do is make sure they finish in the same spots they have in BW (the harder game) and they would triple or quadruple their earnings. IntoTheRainbow earned more than what you are telling me Flash and Jaedong make... and he did that in the span of two months. Don't want to say this but the idea that sc2 rewards the better RTS player is still debatable. O and blizzard pissing all the big boys(sponsors tv networks etc) off isn't helping either i guess. | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
/end thread | ||
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ace246
Australia360 Posts
On December 21 2010 12:20 TheAntZ wrote: Because sc2 is (currently, maybe always will be) far more luck based then BW, so the best progamers probably think they can get better results in BW Then you're a bit of a tool Aren't we all a bit of a tool? And it all comes down to money i guess. One of the sponsors in the BW scene is a bank and that alone gives you a gist of how much money is involved in the scene. As for Flash and Jaedong, they will probably do the same thing as Nada, Boxer and July - go to sc2 once they have nothing to lose. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
i've been waiting for sc2 for a long time and since release i feel like i've been lying to myself that i loved the game up until now. i really want to love the game but im having a really really hard time enjoying it. sadly because of most of the new units which i feel are simply badly designed. alot of these badly designed units replaced good ones (see reaver and colossus, goliath and thor, arbiter and mothership, vulture and hellion, etc etc etc) also theres that skill level problem. the skill gap between awful and mediocre players currently is far too small. with great players being knocked out by retarded rushes. the problem being there isn't much they can work on. macro is extremely simplified. so is micro. what is a top tier player supposed to work on. decision making i guess. but i much preferred the old method of someone being mechanically strong and actually skilled than just making the right decision are the right time. i guess people will strongly disagree with that point. i may get in trouble for this but i feel you wont hear this from any top player ever. why? sc2 is a chance at an e-sports centered future. if sc2 succeeds e-sports may very well take off around the globe. meaning the current progamers will start to make more money and more can live the dream job. it's just sad that everything is currently hinging on a game that i think is kinda awful =\  | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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