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On December 05 2010 06:04 DreamSailor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 06:00 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On December 05 2010 05:54 Dente wrote:On December 05 2010 05:51 osten wrote:
Completely moronic,
removing the ability to hold down a key ONLY destroys zerg action speed across all levels. Then they make phoenix immortal so they can just do whatever they like.
When was fungal too imba? Never. Blizzard are so perfectly damaged in the head, how can they fail this much,...... How to stop mass muta in zvz now? Hydra? IDIOTS!!! IDIOTS!!! They try to make small changes, then suddenly DESTROY AN ENTIRE RACE WHY??? This is not an adjustment at all this is REMOVING A RACE. I'm not overreacting. This dosen't work, but they don't need to test it to see that!! IDIOTS!! Is it me or is it kind of strange to see zergs even whining about their OWN race? Really guys? Mass muta is hard to stop in tvz too, and even harder in pvz. god stop posting such crap. situations in mirrors are in no way related to anything outside. guess what, Z has no thors,marines,powerturrets,storm,blinkhydras,superspeed muta hunters,almost free+2 armor etc. thats why this is problem in zvz. no matter how you look at it,the fungal change comes outta nowhere for no reason at all and is overall bad for the game. You're just going to have to incorporate Corruptors if you can't completely match mutalisk count. Corruptors are underused in a few matchups (TvZ ZvZ) which is probably why this change is occuring. You do have to admit, locking down 10+ mutalisks and being able to cripple the numbers with Hydralisks that can't be hit was pretty insane. Now imagine that being almost the guys entire force (30 mutalisks for example) and you take it out, its an auto-loss, from one good click from you. It's not exactly fun to lose that way.
ofc it isnt fun. but i rather have that one strat beeing risky then all other strats beeing totally unviable. esp since muta fights are so insanely boring and stupid in sc2 compared to bw.
and corrupters are underused cause they are a bad and boring unit. they are kinda slow,dont have anything special going for them except ther tankiness and are basicly a air roach dmg wise. and in zvz while corrupters can help out abit they are never the answer. mutas are faster so you can pick your fights,engage and kill all mutas and run, happily abuse mobility etc.
will it be that bad? we'll see. but its not even a question if this is a bad change or not.
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lol, Zerg QQ about infestor can't FG, make dropship even better. So why they don't think about mutalisk harass is the most annoying thing in the game? dropship require much more skill in multitasking than control a group of mutal flying around
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On December 05 2010 06:09 metalsonic wrote:
Chat rooms , great !!
SCV's getting same priority as the unit they repair , also great !!!
Workers still having low priority in fight if they stand on hold position ( wtf ??? fix this ).
Phoenix changes ..... well I can't imagine for what purpose I would use the damn things other then killing queens and sniping overlords , but 10 seconds isn't such a significant change imo, it means phoenixes just come in earlier wich doesn't really matter all that much unless ur facing mass mutalisks , and I think this change was also needed to be able to deal better with mass mutalisk as protoss . Now the carrier needs to get it's build time also decreased since in late game protoss will ALWAYS lose vs zerg , if the zerg get's 6 ultras and 5 broodlords mixed with a few other army units , it is unstopable unless u got mass carriers with mothership ( wich is allmost impossible since u can't deal with zerg aggression early on verry much , roaches ) .
I tought they were going to do something huge like fixing P v Z late game .
for the rest as protoss players u are still commited to the build orders u know , mass phoenixes aren't cost effective vs zerg that much
This is incredibly incorrect. You have to have a "versatile" army as Protoss, not because of Composition, but because of the tech switch. A few broodlords can be handled by Blink stalkers, Voidrays (Edit: Voidrays apparently got 20% damage increase vs. Massive which is relevant to Broodlords and Ultralisks), and Phoenix to a lesser extent. Ultralisks can be handled by Zealot + Colossus, Immortals (Very effectively), Blink stalkers, Archons, Voidrays (Albeit a bit slow, but again, +20% vs. massive), and Dark Templar (Also incredibly effective if you snipe overseers via a Phoenix (ala Bisu) or Blink Stalkers). Most of which are good against most zerg compositions in some shape or form.
If you are maxed on Carriers and a Mothership, its also very hard for Zerg to stop. A good vortex means you're fighting approximately half their army at a time. Carriers have pretty crazy damage potential, and when its dealing with smaller numbers kills things very fast.
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FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU ZERG, this patch is the best patch ever.
Seriously All I hear is zerg QQ I love it. QQ omg I can't hold donw Z anymore wahh wahh, omg I cant infestor Dropships now infestors are useless, wahh wahhh, like any of you newbs used infestors anyways.
s
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You do have to admit, locking down 10+ mutalisks and being able to cripple the numbers with Hydralisks that can't be hit was pretty insane. Now imagine that being almost the guys entire force (30 mutalisks for example) and you take it out, its an auto-loss, from one good click from you. It's not exactly fun to lose that way.
Not much different then messing up your muta micro around a few thors and having them disappear in seconds.
Or losing all your marines/lings to a few blings with one wrong click.
Or losing all your blings when you don't realize there is a tank on a cliff and they all die in one shot.
Why are people not expected to micro away/around infestors that it has to be changed, but it is acceptable for these other situations? It just isn't consistent. If you are darting around with your muta/phoenix micro it isn't easy to catch a whole pile of air units with fungal.
I just want to know the exact reason why this change was needed, if that reason was so you don't lose all your air units then seems like a dumb change people need to learn to spread their units and micro their air around fungal the same as marines micro around blings. etc.
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I always hated how the infestation pit was keyed to "I"
Roaches [r] from a Roach Warren [r], Hydralisks [h] from a Hydralisk Den [h]. Ultralisks [u] from an Ultralisk Cavern [u].
Infestors [f] from an Infestation Pit [i]. ??
I didn't like reaching across my keyboard.
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All this whining about the patch is pretty ridiculous. As has been said before, this is a test patch. Blizzard is using this as a public opportunity to try different things without screwing up the 'regular' game.
Everyone should be happy that public tests are possible and that Blizzard is showing a willingness to make large balance changes.
We have no idea what changes will become official in the next official patch, and it's safe to say that most of the things most people don't like won't make it past the test phase.
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Thank god now that 1 infestor cant take out 4 medivacs full of units, i cant see any other way besides what blizzard has done to remove this from the game. It was obviously very powerful and rewarded an attentive zerg who kept one infestor at every expansion, but it kinda rewarded them a bit too much. Now storm can be nerfed a tad and all splash in the game is toned down so fights arent just, how has more splash units.
Liking the majority of the changes though i dont know how they are effecting anything without a terran in it
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Nothing for TvZ and a nerf to repair cheese, another stale patch from blizzard guess they enjoy 8m all in games and Z a moving into T for easy points if they survive.
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I think these are some solid changes. I'm looking forward to seeing how TvP evolves. I'm anticipating a lot more people gravitron beaming my units.
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On December 05 2010 06:17 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +You do have to admit, locking down 10+ mutalisks and being able to cripple the numbers with Hydralisks that can't be hit was pretty insane. Now imagine that being almost the guys entire force (30 mutalisks for example) and you take it out, its an auto-loss, from one good click from you. It's not exactly fun to lose that way. Not much different then messing up your muta micro around a few thors and having them disappear in seconds. Or losing all your marines/lings to a few blings with one wrong click. Or losing all your blings when you don't realize there is a tank on a cliff and they all die in one shot. Why are people not expected to micro away/around infestors that it has to be changed, but it is acceptable for these other situations? It just isn't consistent. If you are darting around with your muta/phoenix micro it isn't easy to catch a whole pile of air units with fungal. I just want to know the exact reason why this change was needed, if that reason was so you don't lose all your air units then seems like a dumb change people need to learn to spread their units and micro their air around fungal the same as marines micro around blings. etc.
The only difference between fungal and the other "scenarios" you stated is that its possible to mitigate the amount of damage thors, blings and tanks do to your army, quickly pulling back reduces the amount of damage your take, however fungal means that you cant micro, this is perhaps the worst thing about fungal. If you get fungal'd your army cannot move for like 8 seconds or w/e it is, this was especially powerful vs medivacs, mutas and is still super poweful vs bio when you have blings.
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On December 05 2010 06:24 Zacsafus wrote:
Thank god now that 1 infestor cant take out 4 medivacs full of units, i cant see any other way besides what blizzard has done to remove this from the game. It was obviously very powerful and rewarded an attentive zerg who kept one infestor at every expansion, but it kinda rewarded them a bit too much. Now storm can be nerfed a tad and all splash in the game is toned down so fights arent just, how has more splash units.
Liking the majority of the changes though i dont know how they are effecting anything without a terran in it
changes with infestor so far that _I_ know of (someone that didn't play in beta)
- NP being screwed over
- NP being screwed over even more
- FG getting a LITTLE better (blink stalkers)
- FG being screwed up
.... - -'
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On December 05 2010 06:09 Barett wrote:
I don't get why all the Zergs are whining about the Fungal not affecting air units. Do they realize that Protoss has no good counters to large numbers of Mutas? Blink stalkers just don't cut it with large numbers of Mutas.
The fact that P has 'no good counters' to mass muta (a questionable statement, but I'll leave it alone), should be addressed by buffing P in some way (sorta like reducing Phoenix build time?), not by introducing the same problem to ZvZ.
The fact of the matter is this: Speedling/muta is just about the easiest unit combo in the world to play with, and a huge pain in the ass to play against. Given the speed of muta-balls, neither queens or hydras can possibly defend without fungal growth to pin the mutas in place. The result of this is that the only counter to mutas is a greater number of mutas, which makes for a booooooring match.
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I believe the change to FG was caused by TSL_GuineaPig vs LeenockfOu. on Lost temple the Zerg went Mutalisk. And seeing how Phoenix appear to be designed to counter Mutas with twice as much damage vs light (10x2) and faster movespeed as well as ability to shoot while moving.
However, the game showed that it is very hard for Protoss Phoenix production to match Muta production so basically the whole time there were more mutas than phoenix. Normally when this happens it's still okay because phoenix protect your probe lines very well and you can kite muta, but Leenock placed an infestor under his muta. at that point FG was used on the phoenix and they just sat there helplessly while getting completely owned by a muta ball.
Perhaps blizzard feels that FG is now too strong that it counters both tech paths vs Muta (blink stalker/phoenix)
Also the phoenix build time change i believe is to address the Muta to Phoenix number discrepancy. as well as make early phoenix play stronger as you get 10 seconds of more energy than you had before
In my opinion i don't think this change is as game breaking as giving stalker 7 range but we will have to see what happens.
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I love this new Master League, if its true, then no more of this I am Diamond so I am best. Diamond league is sooo overrated.
Hopefully its gonna separate the really skilled players from the ones who just play to win. and we can get some better advice on the forum,
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I can't believe the amount of whining here, wow.
Phoenix buff isn't that huge, and it's about time Muta cheese has a strong counter. Simply the fact that Toss can get Phoenix out quickly will keep Zerg from blindly massing Muta's like they can right now.
However, even as a Toss player, I'm not sure about the Void ray buff, becasue now Voids will absolutely crush Colossus. The only real counter Toss has against mass Voids, is more Voids.
I can see PvP turning into mass voids vs mass voids. That unit is impossible to balance.
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If they think fungals on phoenixes are a problem, then why not make phoenix immune to movement impairing effects? The fungal change will make ZvZ very boring.
It looks like blizzard sees that protoss needs a weapon against the muta. Protoss will now be able to get some map control, air won't be dominated by muta in PvZ anymore. I am a bit concerned about double stargate opening being too strong now, but I guess we'll see how it works out.
It's a step in the right direction, but the big issue of early game terran completely owning early game protoss is not fixed yet. (it's about even if you get to the point where you can spam 100 force fields)
I would like to see the observatory added (cost 100/50) and the observer moved too that. This won't give you "free" scouting when going robo, and you can get your scout a bit cheaper when not going robo.
Maybe protoss will be able to get a hallucination off, scout a cloaked banshee build and still get an observer out in time now. If that is true then it will allow you to be safe without buying a robo but going stargate or twilight council.
These changes are not final yet and I really hope blizzard changes things even more, really the fungul nerf is uncalled for.
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omg zerg's only real catser can't hit air now?!?! nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo lol
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On December 05 2010 06:35 Proximo wrote:
I can't believe the amount of whining here, wow.
Phoenix buff isn't that huge, and it's about time Muta cheese has a strong counter. Simply the fact that Toss can get Phoenix out quickly will keep Zerg from blindly massing Muta's like they can right now.
However, even as a Toss player, I'm not sure about the Void ray buff, becasue now Voids will absolutely crush Colossus. The only real counter Toss has against mass Voids, is more Voids.
I can see PvP turning into mass voids vs mass voids. That unit is impossible to balance.
mass voids are quite difficult to control in terms of getting them charged up though, since it's almost impossible to split your void rays to attack invidividual units in large battles.
i think voids will no doubt start to appear more in pvp as an anti-air unit against colossus though
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EPT
