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Terrans Have Highest Skill Ceiling - Page 14

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Iamyournoob
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany595 Posts
December 10 2010 16:27 GMT
#261
Well designwise I think terran is the most diverse race but in terms of unit-concepts and unit desing Protoss is in my opinion cooler than terran. ForceFields, Colossi-micro, HTs, Blink micro - there are so many cool units for protoss that stem from really great unit concepts.
The only race that seems a bit "flat" to me is zerg who have basically just units that simply attack...
aRRR
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands21 Posts
December 10 2010 16:52 GMT
#262
On December 11 2010 01:27 Iamyournoob wrote:
The only race that seems a bit "flat" to me is zerg who have basically just units that simply attack...


What about burrowed banelings, flying banelings, burrowed roaches, infestors, nydus etc. they all make Zerg unique.
SmoKim
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark10304 Posts
December 10 2010 16:59 GMT
#263
On December 11 2010 01:52 aRRR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2010 01:27 Iamyournoob wrote:
The only race that seems a bit "flat" to me is zerg who have basically just units that simply attack...


What about burrowed banelings, flying banelings, burrowed roaches, infestors, nydus etc. they all make Zerg unique.


wat

don't you mean Scourge from BW?
"LOL I have 202 supply right now (3 minutes later)..."LOL NOW I HAVE 220 SUPPLY SUP?!?!?" - Mondragon
rbkl
Profile Joined March 2010
772 Posts
December 10 2010 17:03 GMT
#264
I dont remember the post exactly, but the mere fact that Terran has more units, thus more options, makes them have the highest skill ceiling by far. Zerg is more dynamic, but the ceiling is much lower -- once you master creep spread, various micros, queen inject, what else is there for Z?
www.check6gaming.com // www.iugaming.com ** Indiana's Premier Gaming / Starcraft Community **
Finky27
Profile Joined November 2010
Algeria45 Posts
December 10 2010 17:26 GMT
#265
The fact that it is so versatile raises its skill ceiling much higher than Zerg and Protoss
Liquid_Adun
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada205 Posts
December 15 2010 14:23 GMT
#266
Its a bit unfair to compare sc2 and sc1, see that sc1 has over 10 years of balance and testing. Sc2 isnt that old and yet is doing all right in the balance department. The three races should be as diverse as possible, you don't want 3 races that differ by only by a couple of units. If your a fan of flying buildings, i suggest playing a ums and making as many buildings as you can and fly them around. Get it out of your system. Anti air is a great counter to flying buildings. On a more serious note, racial difference are good, are racial equalities necessary. Do protoss and terran need a nydus worm, or creep to make thier units move faster?

Thanks for all the hard work, Adun.
I have returned.
KevinIX
Profile Joined October 2009
United States2472 Posts
December 15 2010 14:25 GMT
#267
On December 11 2010 01:59 SmoKim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2010 01:52 aRRR wrote:
On December 11 2010 01:27 Iamyournoob wrote:
The only race that seems a bit "flat" to me is zerg who have basically just units that simply attack...


What about burrowed banelings, flying banelings, burrowed roaches, infestors, nydus etc. they all make Zerg unique.


wat

don't you mean Scourge from BW?


I think he means Baneling Drops.
Liquid FIGHTING!!!
craz3d
Profile Joined August 2005
Bulgaria856 Posts
December 15 2010 14:40 GMT
#268
On December 10 2010 05:44 Stoids wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2010 05:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Sorry but I wouldn't agree with the "common sense" that Terran is the micro race. Hasn't Protoss always been considered the "micro-race" even if they don't necessarily need to micro, whatever that means? Perhaps this role is switched around in sc2, but in SC1, the idea was this

Zerg = macro, swarm (less micro)
Terran = middle, middle
Protoss = micro, less but strong units

Protoss had the least micro in BW relative to the other races. You didn't have to babysit your units as much. You could F2 back to your base pretty safely during battle. This is one of the reasons that people say that protoss was the easiest race to play in BW.


At lower levels yes. At higher levels it's not so true. Against Terran, if you 1a2a3a without some form of control your army dies easily to tanks and mines. Second, against zerg, early game if you 1a2a3a into a lurker contain, your zealots disappear and your goons then get run down by lings, not to mention that you need to look after your observers because they can get scourged over and over again and by the time you break out, zerg has the map.

At lower levels of play, Protoss seems op because people can't macro or micro enough to exploit P's weaknesses, and its the same in SC2.
Hello World!
MisterPuppy
Profile Joined August 2010
161 Posts
December 15 2010 14:52 GMT
#269
why do you all want the zerg units to have abilities? its hard enough to keep up with the insane macro. its like the opposite for terran, you have easy macro but really difficult micro since most units have a set of abilites you need to use correctly or you die
awesomoecalypse
Profile Joined August 2010
United States2235 Posts
December 15 2010 14:56 GMT
#270
The OP's point is that Terran units, buildings and macro mechanics all synergize and fit into a general design conceit of versatility.

But Protoss have synergy as well. Consider the features of Protoss units:

They are expensive
They are slow to build
They are very powerful at a few highly specialized purposes

Army composition is therefore crucial for a Protoss player. If you have the wrong composition, your expensive units will die and it will be difficult to replace them before you are overrun and/or falge massively behind. On the other hand, if you have the right units to handle the specific task you've tasked them with, they can do so tremendously effective. This (along with massive reliance on forcefields) is why people think Toss is so punishing of mistakes and so damn powerful when played "perfectly".

So what do the two Protoss macro mechanics do?

They allow you to get the units you need, when and where you need them.

Not without limits, of course. But chronoboost is an incredibly powerful, versatile tool that is not just a terrific economic booster, but also a fantastic way to get the army you want when you want it. Need an observer last minute to save yourself from banshees that were scouted a bit late? CB can help. Want to crank out Colossi to make that lategame army absolutely devastating? Look no further than CB.

Chronoboost is also perhaps the most underused tool currently in the Protoss arsenal. Watch even the pros, and by mid to late game all their Nexuses have a ton of energy. I think that's the next great frontier of Protoss development--and that, given Chronoboost's versatility, it will be *years* before we've 100% "solved" how to best use it.

The other tool is of course warp gates. Warp gates warp in units essentially instantly, meaning build time is not a factor when warping in those first couple stalkers to stop a drop, or a few zealots to begin some early aggression. They also warp your units in anywhere you have a pylon, which means that a typical major weakness of long build times--slow reinforcements--is completely bypassed.

No you can't get "creative" ala flashy stuff like Mule repair. But chronoboost is so outrageously versatile that it ultimately enhances Toss adaptability tremendously, and warp-in may just be straight up the most powerful tech in the game. Together the two combine perfectly to paper over Protoss weaknesses and play to their strengths.
He drone drone drone. Me win. - ogsMC
1Lamb1Rice
Profile Joined August 2010
United States435 Posts
December 22 2010 22:43 GMT
#271
It seems creative play for zerg or protoss takes place mostly in the mid/late game, whereas Terran seems to have the creative options as early as the early game. Love this post, very clear and well said.
twitch.tv/lambnrice @LambNRice
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
December 22 2010 22:52 GMT
#272
Isn't it weird, though, that terran has an army thats the hardest to reproduce out of all the races? That should by logic be protoss. Without looking at the balance at all, I think its a slight design mistake..
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
Ghad
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway2551 Posts
December 22 2010 23:06 GMT
#273
So you are saying that terran is the most developed and wellrounded race in this early stage of SC2's lifespan, hence terran players has so many more options, tactics and strategies to explore.

Thats a revolutionary insight right there.
forgottendreams: One underage girl, two drunk guys, one gogo dancer and starcraft 2. Apparently just another day in Europe.
SetStndbySmn
Profile Joined August 2010
United States657 Posts
December 22 2010 23:17 GMT
#274
As a protoss player, as of right now, from my own anecdotal account, I agree that terran has the highest skill cap. However, the perception of skill ceilings changes over time; there was a time when many thought terran to be too easy because of mm efficiency and the community lagging on developing airtight responses. In addition, I feel that protoss has the potential to have the highest micro skill cap after watching ogsmc's use of warp prisms and other harass, as well as seeing prism + forcefield play in greater frequency to magnify the zoning drops create; in part it may be a similar phenomena to early release t- i.e. the toss community feeling the growing pains of weaning out of the musclebound colossi balls of doom into more varied play.

As of now I don't have any visions of me considering zerg to have a higher skill ceiling than protoss or terran from my perspective, but again this is highly anecdotal, because all of the zerg mechanics come very naturally to me while the terran mechanics do not. In fact, I consider the ease of use for the zerg race to be a sign of good design as it very quickly came to feel like an extension of my self.

Why is terran so much harder for me to play? I like the race a lot, I think it's potent competitively, and very enjoyable to watch. I think the answer is that I have a more instinctual and impulsive style; as a player I feel protoss and zerg augment my strengths more precisely, whereas terran gives me the feel of a very premeditated race, where everything needs to be thought out and planned precisely with meticulous attention to detail. I can see how a person with a different set of strengths and weaknesses could find the other races more challenging, with terran being second nature- but that individual, I am not.
"He doesn't operate under some divine shroud that lets him determine what is or is not valid culture. He cannot rob you, retroactively, of wholly valid experiences; he cannot transform them into worthless things." - Tycho
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
December 26 2010 10:22 GMT
#275
Good analysis, although I think the use of the mule was intentional, as they are lacking attack ability, so leaving repair was obviously on purpose.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
December 26 2010 10:37 GMT
#276
being the most adaptable race is not skill requiring compared to winning against the most adaptable race.

Is it hellion marauders or banshee coming? Huge skill required from zerg to find out while terran can just execute the build.
Chrysoprases
Profile Joined November 2010
27 Posts
December 26 2010 18:46 GMT
#277
I am just surprised how somebody puts a big effort into a theoretical analysis and was able to express it that clearly, but got misinterpreted nearly all the time.

I am much more surprised that this "discussion" was supported by some people, who are trying to explain it with examples, so that loldudes can grasp whats all about.

but i am really flabberghasted how some(...many) oneline-nobrainers could possibly manage to derail an interesting thread into a how skilled is a typical terran player QQ.

is this the way to get more comments?
can one srsly expect discussions here?
i see an incessant increase in whine at exponential scale.
anger, hate, frustration.
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
December 26 2010 19:09 GMT
#278
All i can say is that you need more micro for terran then you would need for the other races to be in diamond.
Not sure if terrans have the highest skill ceiling, but if you can control the 5 unit types that all needs a positioning or a skill you need to use while engaging against the 2 unit types the opponent uses, then the terran army is super effectiv.
But i think zergs need a different skill after terrans got better in unit control, just like a toss will need other skills to make his race more effectiv. Think the stuff a terran needs is more obvious then the stuff a zerg or toss needs and that way it looks that way that terran will own everything once some people have their 600 apm hehe.

We will probably see over the years if a race is really superior to the other, because they get to strong with growing skill. But then there will be blizzard balance patches to even that out. (i like the bw style "terran is up we make terran favored maps now" solution more)
branflakes14
Profile Joined July 2010
2082 Posts
December 26 2010 19:12 GMT
#279
On December 27 2010 04:09 FeyFey wrote:
All i can say is that you need more micro for terran then you would need for the other races to be in diamond.


Considering walling in requires no unit micromanagement and it stops pretty much all low level cheese dead, I think Terran is the race that needs LEAST micro to reach Diamond.
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
December 26 2010 19:23 GMT
#280
All i can say is that you need more micro for terran then you would need for the other races to be in diamond.


Statements like that are so frustratingly wrong. It is clear that you(a terran player probably) posts things like that to feel good that "the race I play is the most micro intensive, I feel good about myself now."

Just sick of people that aren't able to take a logical, and all around approach to a topic because they are simply blinded by the race that they play and don't want to look at it from a non-bias point of view, but I guess that is welcome to the internet right?

Are there times that Terran is very micro intensive? Sure. I also believe you can get to Diamond by simply learning a 4-5 rax build and just a moving a 1 base timing no problem. That doesn't require hardly any micro. Any of the races have times they are micro intensive and times they aren't. Using Diamond as the standard of anything is a joke as well, I'm like a 2300 point Diamond zerg and I suck ass at the game.

Sometimes I wonder what the game would be like if you weren't able to pick your race, it was just random all the time. I feel like some people post and have never once played any of the other races. All players should play a few customs every week going random just to see the point of view of the other races.

Not to mention your statement doesn't even have anything to do w/ the OP at all anyway.

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