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00Visor
4337 Posts
On November 04 2012 19:52 Alaiz wrote: Flash overcame Naniwa thanks to the extended series. It proves that Flash is better than Naniwa. Totally wrong. Flash would have advanced without extended series as well. They give an advantage to the former winner (Naniwa). So it actually made it harder for Flash. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
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MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
I guess the compromise would be to give a 1 game advantage with 1st map pick if you 2-0 someone. (e.g. 2-0, then 1-2 in rematch). The "better" player should still win out through extended series anyway. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On November 04 2012 23:06 MoonfireSpam wrote: It's a necessary rule in any double elim format. It would totally suck to get knocked out when you have won more rounds VS your opponent. It's rubbish from a spectator standpoint and rubbish if you are an inferior player. I guess the compromise would be to give a 1 game advantage with 1st map pick if you 2-0 someone. (e.g. 2-0, then 1-2 in rematch). The "better" player should still win out through extended series anyway. Why is it necessary? Does the fact that the loser has to play more games is not disadvantage enough? Previous results should NEVER be taken into account when the players play again. This is a new match, not an extra part of the first one. | ||
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vrok
Sweden2541 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Yes the player coming from the winning bracket should have an advantage but it's silly to base that advantage on their previous result. Just give the player from the winning bracket a 1-0 advantage in a bo5. That way the advantage isn't too big, being 2-0 ahead or having to win just one bo3 out of 2 is too much of an advantage really. chances for the player from loser bracket: Winning two BO3's 0.5 ^2 = 0.25 Winning BO7 from 2-0 down. So going 4-1 or 4-0 required 0.5^5 * choose(5,1) + 0.5^5 * choose(5,0) = 0.1875 Winning BO7 from 2-1 down, So going 3-1 or better required. This is the same as playing a BO5 from 1-0 down: 0.5^4 * choose(4,1) + 0.5^4 * choose(4,0) = 0.3125 So overall assuming both players are equal and games are independant, thus 50% win chance each games regardless of anything the player coming from the loser bracket really has a low chance to win. At best he comes in 2-1 down and has about ~31% chance, at worst he comes in 2-0 down and only has ~19% chance. Those chances are too low imo, ie the player from the winning bracket has too big of an advantage. I think somewhere between around 30-35% is far, ie the player from the winning bracket should advance about 2 out of 3 times. For example they could let the winning bracket player start at 1-0 in a BO5 so the loser has to go 3-1 or 3-0, which is the same as being 2-1 down in the BO7 giving the LB player 31% chance to advance. Alternatively they could let him start 1-0 down in a BO7 so he has to go 4-2 or better which results in ~34% chance to advance. I would be in favor of 1-0 up in a BO5, that way it's at least 2 games and max 4 games, the same as when the LB player is 1-2 now. Two bo3's is ugly giving the WB player to big of an advantage and too much variety in length (2 games minimal 6 games maximal!). 2-0 down in a BO7 is just way too much of an advantage for the WB player. Overall the question is basically how many games do you want to see in a rematch and how big should the WB advantage be. Personally I think the WB advantage shouldn't be too big because that makes all the LB bracket games a bit meaningless and reduces the chance of a comeback story way too much. MLG is won far too often by a group winner that goes straight to the finals. The WB player already has some many advantages outside of just being ahead in score: - he has played far less games, generally they get to sleep much earlier and stress less - he often gets to see his opponent games just before his match and from other games in the tournament. The LB player however is far too worried about advancing in the first place to even study his opponent. It's silly that in MLG the FAR majority of games is played for the LB however the overall winner is in most cases just determined by the games of the group winners against eachother. The majority of the games just feel completely silly because those LB players just compete only to get beaten out later, the comeback stories are the best but they rarely happen because of this format. Even worse the eventual winner often doesn't feel like the best because he just played far less games (often played a day less too!) and just had an advantage when up agains the LB player. Winning the grand finals by losing the first BO3 2-0 and then winning the second 2-1 (so actually going 2-3) is just terrible as it just feels the wrong player has just won the tournament. | ||
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MisterTea
United Kingdom1047 Posts
On November 04 2012 22:42 00Visor wrote: Totally wrong. Flash would have advanced without extended series as well. They give an advantage to the former winner (Naniwa). So it actually made it harder for Flash. no, without extended series flash loses 2-0 Why is this poll being brought up again theres no need for it, extended series in this tournament is fine now On November 04 2012 22:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: 2-0 is just frankly to big of a lead. A more realistic format would be if you win 2-0 in a previous series, you get a 1-0 lead + first map pick, if you get 2-1 you get map pick. The 2-0 is just crushing and imo ruins the game. except flash was behind 2-1 and came back in one of the most epic series of sc2 ever | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 04 2012 23:06 MoonfireSpam wrote: It's a necessary rule in any double elim format. It would totally suck to get knocked out when you have won more rounds VS your opponent. It's rubbish from a spectator standpoint and rubbish if you are an inferior player. I guess the compromise would be to give a 1 game advantage with 1st map pick if you 2-0 someone. (e.g. 2-0, then 1-2 in rematch). The "better" player should still win out through extended series anyway. how is it a neccesary rule, GSL groups are a double elimination format basically and it often happens that player A wins from B in his first match and then loses the final match between A and B resulting in B advancing. It can even be the case that A is 3-2 total against B for the day (2-0 win followed by 1-2 loss). It doesn't feel bad because B won against C and A lost against D in the mean time, direct results shouldn't be counted too heavily in a tournament, overall results is what matter. The player in the winner bracket may not have lost a match, the LB player has won just as many matches (sometimes more) and only lost once. The WB advantage shouldn't be too big especially since he is more rested already. | ||
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StreetWise
United States594 Posts
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
On November 04 2012 23:38 StreetWise wrote: Flash was behind 2-1. The extended series rule made this epic bo7 possible. And it also meant a ton of players that would have advnaced in a fair format lost their games. Making things unfair is way too much of a price for a few epic Bo7s, especially in a competition that wants to be professional. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On November 04 2012 23:38 StreetWise wrote: Flash was behind 2-1. The extended series rule made this epic bo7 possible. Actually it was Flash and Naniwa being awesome that made that epic bo7 possible. With any other people it would have been a walkover for the one that won the previous match. | ||
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TheResidentEvil
United States991 Posts
On November 04 2012 23:35 MisterTea wrote: no, without extended series flash loses 2-0 wrong wrong wrong. flash loses first series 2-1. If no extended, he wins the next one 2-1. Flash had to win 1 extra game because of extended series. the worst part about these threads is half the people don't even know when it actually affects the outcome of a series and when it doesn't. What is it? The extended series says that anytime two players are going to face each other for the 2nd time, the results from the first meeting will be counted towards a BO7. Red plays Blue and wins 2-1. Red plays blue again: BO7 where Red is up 2-1. If the series ends 4-1 or 4-2 then extended series did not affect the outcome of this game. The outcome would be the same according to standard double elimination tourney. If the first 3 games blue goes 2-1 then extended series saves Red here. The series would be 3-3. Consider: The only time extended series can affect the outcome of a match is if the underdog wins 2 out of the first 3 in the extended series(flash). Then these are times that you can say "well extended series saved him." (naniwa) It would be true. However, if Red wins 2 out of the first 3 games then Red would also win standard double elim tourney. | ||
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dark_dragoon10
United States299 Posts
On November 05 2012 00:13 TheResidentEvil wrote: wrong wrong wrong. flash loses first series 2-1. If no extended, he wins the next one 2-1. Flash had to win 1 extra game because of extended series. the worst part about these threads is half the people don't even know when it actually affects the outcome of a series and when it doesn't. i LOL @ flash loses 2-0. Some people man... Extended series is garbage, especially since it resets after 2 series. The mlg format seems so... arbitrary. Whatever happened to their pledge to remove extended series? | ||
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StreetWise
United States594 Posts
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sjperera
Canada349 Posts
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Chenz
Sweden1197 Posts
On November 04 2012 22:42 00Visor wrote: Totally wrong. Flash would have advanced without extended series as well. They give an advantage to the former winner (Naniwa). So it actually made it harder for Flash. Nope, extended series is a disadvantage to the winner if he's still in the winner's bracket. If both players are in the loser's bracket, the previous winner gets an unfair advantage. In other words, this poll lacks a pretty important option. | ||
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
but as far as rules are set before played, it is fair | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 05 2012 00:44 Chenz wrote: Nope, extended series is a disadvantage to the winner if he's still in the winner's bracket. If both players are in the loser's bracket, the previous winner gets an unfair advantage. In other words, this poll lacks a pretty important option. This is just not true, it depends on the previous result if it's an advantage or not. Being 2-0 up in a BO7 is better than having to win 1 out of 2 BO3s. Being 2-1 up in a BO7 is however worse. | ||
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VL-Orion
Indonesia78 Posts
If I need to explain why that is, please kindly check your central nervous system for defects. (ps.if this change already happened , then i have no problem with extended series) | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 05 2012 00:46 winthrop wrote: its not fair to the loser. but as far as rules are set before played, it is fair Technically it is but that's a useless statement. You could also give the player from the loser bracket a 1 in 100 chance to advance, it would still be techincally fair as the rules are set beforehand and both players had a chance to stay in the winners bracket. It would however be silly and feel 'unfair'. The entire point of a double elimination tournament with a losers bracket is to actually give those players a chance of winning the thing. A loss can happen but you can still win in the end. It's stupid that winner bracket players have such an unfair advantage, just compare it to any other tournament with group play for example. In GSL groups the top 2 advance, with number 1 not having any losses and number 1 one loss. The group winner however just gets a marginal advantage from that in the rest from the tournament in maybe a better seeding afterwards. Same in any sport with a competition first and then playoffs, topping the competition gives a marginal seeding advantage in the playoffs, not some rediculous score advantage. Imagine the NBA playoffs being played out with the team having ended higher in the playoffs with a 10 point lead in each game. That is roughly what MLG is doing... Finals have a anti-climax very often because of this huge silly WB advantage. | ||
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