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MLG extended Series Poll - Page 39

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Prev 1 37 38 39 40 41 72 Next
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 21:07:20
August 29 2011 21:04 GMT
#761
I voted no not because of the players, but because it means we get to watch less games. Nothing is more uneventful then a finals with extended series. I like the idea posted earlier about keeping extended series for the open bracket and then abandoning it for the championship one.
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 21:05:10
August 29 2011 21:04 GMT
#762
Doesn't matter if the rule is fair. It kills the hype.

How exciting would the super bowl be if one team got a two touchdown lead at the beginning of the game, because of a regular season confrontation weeks or months in the past?

I have yet to watch an MLG finals, in spite watching at least a dozen matches from each of the last few events.
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 21:10:05
August 29 2011 21:08 GMT
#763
every mlg again the question ...
jaeh hero lost 3-4 to drg and he quite sad but if the player is rly better look demuslim 4-0 after 0-2 kawaiirice

i rly love this rule its the ONLY FAIR WAY !

ps: also i totaly disagree on "make hype worse" etc no it makes hype way BIGGER

mlg always bo3 (sometimes sad cause ONLY bo3) so if its 0-2 and then 3-2 for the loosing guy and then 3-3 again (drg vs herO) you can NEVER have this in a bo3 also from 0-2 to 4-2 etc its MUCH MORE hype then a normal bo3 and so its gooood for the viewers
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
Mordiford
Profile Joined April 2011
4448 Posts
August 29 2011 21:44 GMT
#764
On August 30 2011 05:48 pileopoop wrote:
Finals should be double bo5 with no free wins


The problem with this would be that one player would have gotten to drop a Bo3 set, while the other would get to drop a Bo5 set. There is a difference and it does matter. For example, in the IPL2 Nerchio lost in the first round in a Bo3 which isn't that hard to lose with some bad luck even if you're the better player, a Bo5 is significantly harder to lose so the winner's bracket finalist being allowed to lose 1 Bo5 is a bigger advantage than being able to lose 1 Bo3.

I think the standard double elimination is fine, with consistent Bo3s, it's the most fair.


On August 30 2011 06:04 0neder wrote:
Doesn't matter if the rule is fair. It kills the hype.

How exciting would the super bowl be if one team got a two touchdown lead at the beginning of the game, because of a regular season confrontation weeks or months in the past?

I have yet to watch an MLG finals, in spite watching at least a dozen matches from each of the last few events.


To my knowledge, the lead up to the super bowl isn't double elimination, it's single elimination. Even if they removed the extended series, you'd still require one team to win two matches while one team only has to win one. This is the most fair way to do it, and fairness matters.

So do you not think a standard double elimination final is as anticlimactic? Because the fair solution to that is simply using single elimination. Fairness matters, even in competitive sports, this isn't an issue for Football because they don't use double elimination(as far as I know).
The Touch
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom667 Posts
September 04 2011 12:53 GMT
#765
On August 30 2011 06:01 ak1knight wrote:Your first point I really agree with, with extended series the champion will have a winning record or no record versus every player in the tourny, while everyone else has a losing record to at least one other person, it's entirely fair.

Your second point is hardly big enough to counteract the fairness of the rule.


Obviously I disagree :p

I think that giving you the wiggle room to lose two or three times as many maps as somebody else at the same stage of the tournament, purely because of who you're playing, is at least as unfair as being eliminated by somebody who you have a winning record against.

I also just realised (having searched through the thred for my name to figure out where I needed to read from again) that I posted way back when the thread was made too, and I said much the same things then. Basically I don't like double elimination much at all, because it throws up all of these annoying fairness issues. I much prefer a broader group stage in the Championship Bracket, which rewards and punishes your consistency far more than the current system. I don't mean to bash iNcontroL here, but he had a bad MLG, winning just a single BO3 series all tournament, and still finished 22nd overall. A system which allows that to happen is just badly designed IMO.

I think you avoid a lot of the unfairness issues by more strongly emphasising round robin group play, and with an ongoing format (as MLG have outlined for 2012) you can accomodate larger groups because time constraints are eased substantially. For example, NASL had 45 games played per 10-player group, compared to just 15 per 6-player group at MLG.

But MLG are married to double-elim, so I guess my preferences don't really matter in this regard.
You Got The Touch
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
September 04 2011 14:01 GMT
#766
It only increases the chance for a generally weaker player to snipe a generally stronger player who is specifically weak against that particular player. This may not be much of an issue in other esports with better transitivity of skill (A>B , B>C --> A>C), but due to matchups and maps such transitivity just doesn't hold that well in Starcraft.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Incomplet
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United Kingdom1419 Posts
September 04 2011 17:25 GMT
#767
It really boils down to 2 issues, Entertainment for the viewers VS Fairness for the players. In MLG's current extended series format, it is quite clearly evident that entertainment is sacrificed for the sake fairness, thus a compromise MUST be made for the success of future MLGs. So here is my proposal to satisfy both sides of the fence.

-Grand Final is played as a BO7 with no game advantage / handicap to either player to optimize entertainment value and prevent anti-climatic ending

-Player that battles through the championship bracket undefeated receives a separate smaller prize pool, independent of the normal winnings. ie, if that player wins MLG, he will receive separate prize pool + 5k. If he loses then he receives the separate prize pool + 3k. The purpose of this is to reward the player for his excellent performance.

-Of course this will increase the amount that MLG has to splurge out to players, so a viable alternative if this exceeds the budget, is to make the "separate prize pool" consisting of the total donations from viewers and fans. This system is adopted from Total Biscuits Shoutcraft Invitational, proved to work rather impressively. Furthermore this system will allow viewers to directly reward the players and can be perceived as a way of thanking them for provided us with entertainment.

With these procedures in place, we satisfy both entertainment and fairness for the viewers and players respectively. The pool play undefeated champ will be rewarded for his efforts regardless of the outcome of the grand final, and the viewers will not be at risk of getting a disappointing 2 game grand final. Problem solved!
Bow down to the sons of Aiur...SKT1_Rain, CreatorPrime, ST_Parting, Liquid_Hero.
Minored
Profile Joined April 2011
Brazil88 Posts
September 04 2011 17:36 GMT
#768
it is a joke, took me a while to understand why bomber just need two wins(i feel like the casters didnt explained, maybe im wrong)
and takes away a LOT of the exciment in the tournament
go ahead, make my day.
repsac
Profile Joined March 2011
91 Posts
September 04 2011 17:40 GMT
#769
idiotic rule, just remove players from the tournament
RoboBob
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States798 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 20:18:00
September 04 2011 20:12 GMT
#770
Guys, MLG is not double elimination. Sure the open bracket is double elimination, but the chances of someone slogging it out and placing highly in the championship bracket are *very* slim.

The championship bracket is single elimination for 30 players. It's double elimination for only 4 players, the people who placed #1 in pool groups.

If someone makes #2-6 in their pool and fights their way through other top players to get the final, then I don't see why they should be punished for their pool performances. That guy won all of their matches in the championship bracket just like the top #1 pool player. He was already punished for his pool performance by receiving a lower seed in the bracket. Why double the punishment and require him to win an extra BO3? The top #1 in pool player could have very well coasted on an easy pool.

The current system generates really crappy semifinals and finals. Throw on an extended series and its even worse.

I wish that MLG would ditch the pool play and switch to something closer to MSL format. Just with 4 groups instead of 8, and BO3s instead of BO1s. So it would be the 4 GSL invites (1 per group) and then the top 12 players by rank points points (3 per group). Then the winner of each group advances to a single elimination BO8 on championship sunday. And the #2 in each group battles against the 4 open bracket survivors in order to fill the 4 remaining spots in the BO8.

That way the tournament can end with a bunch of BO5/BO7s instead of a crummy BO3s that are over after 2 games.
Bobster
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany3075 Posts
September 04 2011 20:15 GMT
#771
I think the poll in the OP does a pretty good job of illuminating the majority opinion (78%!), but it's only when reading through the thread where one actually realises how many reasons there are for disliking the extended series.


As far as I'm concerned, it has no place in either MLG or any other Starcraft II tournament.
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 20:16:50
September 04 2011 20:15 GMT
#772
I agree with what a lot of people have said. Whether it's fair or not, it ruins the tournament.

When you get to the finals and it's over in just 2 games it's a pathetically anti-climactic let-down. IMHO finals should always be a full bo7 for the full epicness that we've come to expect having watched OSL, MSL, GSL, etc

Plus the excuse before was that it works for halo, and halo is the main game so MLG would keep it. Now SC2 is main stage, I don't even know if they're going to continue having halo, so it's pretty obvious I think what needs to be done.
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Bobster
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany3075 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 20:20:51
September 04 2011 20:18 GMT
#773
On August 30 2011 06:08 CoR wrote:
every mlg again the question ...
jaeh hero lost 3-4 to drg and he quite sad but if the player is rly better look demuslim 4-0 after 0-2 kawaiirice

i rly love this rule its the ONLY FAIR WAY !

ps: also i totaly disagree on "make hype worse" etc no it makes hype way BIGGER

mlg always bo3 (sometimes sad cause ONLY bo3) so if its 0-2 and then 3-2 for the loosing guy and then 3-3 again (drg vs herO) you can NEVER have this in a bo3 also from 0-2 to 4-2 etc its MUCH MORE hype then a normal bo3 and so its gooood for the viewers

Yes, more games are definitely better.

Having the latter rounds be Bo5 instead of Bo3 (and the finals Bo7) provides all the positive things you mention while avoiding the many shortcomings of the extended series.


Few people here are for removing the extended series and leaving everything else as is - obviously we want to make adjustments and improvements to the format - and removing the extended series is a necessary step towards that.


Plus the excuse before was that it works for halo, and halo is the main game so MLG would keep it. Now SC2 is main stage, I don't even know if they're going to continue having halo, so it's pretty obvious I think what needs to be done.

To be fair, I think that was really just that - an excuse, hastily thrown together in absence of actual compelling arguments for the extended series.

They acted in a rush to comply to SC2's explosive growth in popularity during 2010 and copied the Halo system because it was the easiest thing to do from a logistical standpoint.

But now that so much time has passed since then, the community doesn't accept this anymore. It needs to be changed.
Mordiford
Profile Joined April 2011
4448 Posts
September 04 2011 20:25 GMT
#774
On September 05 2011 05:12 RoboBob wrote:
Guys, MLG is not double elimination. Sure the open bracket is double elimination, but the chances of someone slogging it out and placing highly in the championship bracket are *very* slim.

The championship bracket is single elimination for 30 players. It's double elimination for only 4 players, the people who placed #1 in pool groups.

If someone makes #2-6 in their pool and fights their way through other top players to get the final, then I don't see why they should be punished for their pool performances. That guy won all of their matches in the championship bracket just like the top #1 pool player. He was already punished for his pool performance by receiving a lower seed in the bracket. Why double the punishment and require him to win an extra BO3? The top #1 in pool player could have very well coasted on an easy pool.

The current system generates really crappy semifinals and finals. Throw on an extended series and its even worse.

I wish that MLG would ditch the pool play and switch to something closer to MSL format. Just with 4 groups instead of 8, and BO3s instead of BO1s. So it would be the 4 GSL invites (1 per group) and then the top 12 players by rank points points (3 per group). Then the winner of each group advances to a single elimination BO8 on championship sunday. And the #2 in each group battles against the 4 open bracket survivors in order to fill the 4 remaining spots in the BO8.

That way the tournament can end with a bunch of BO5/BO7s instead of a crummy BO3s that are over after 2 games.


Now this makes sense. I like it.
Carl_Sagan
Profile Joined March 2010
United States226 Posts
September 04 2011 20:27 GMT
#775
To the people saying it is unfair to not have a extended serious: there already is a huge advantage given to the winner's bracket players! They are already rewarded by not having to slog through the loser's bracket, facing far fewer chances of losing and playing far fewer games to get to the finals.

rwrzr
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1980 Posts
September 04 2011 20:28 GMT
#776
Should total games played be the same for losers bracket winner and winners bracket winner?
FADC
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
September 04 2011 20:29 GMT
#777
It makes it somewhat easier to calculate the odds and set up betting pools with my friends if there is no extended series and every meeting is a clean BoX. Independent events ftw.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Karliath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2214 Posts
September 04 2011 20:30 GMT
#778
From the two 4-3 games we saw at the last MLG, I actually like the result of the extended series. That said, the end does not justify the means here, and I think the extended series is a bad idea. I do want semi-finals and stuff not to be a bo3 though...
Jakkerr
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands2549 Posts
September 04 2011 20:32 GMT
#779
Extended series are the worst rule ever, and I can prove it with a very simple example.

If u place high in ur group, lets say u place 2nd u get far higher in the bracket then someone that finished 4th.
If they meet again it means the guy that got 4th first had to play 2 more rounds too actually deserve the chance to face the 2nd placed guy again.
It's absolutely ridiculous he would have to start 2-0 or 2-1 behind then/
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
September 04 2011 20:33 GMT
#780
I'll pay money to get rid of it. Please. -_-
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