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On November 08 2010 03:37 oxxo wrote:
Hilarious how before the latest patch people were using these same stats to prove T was 'overpowered'. Now that the stats actually don't back up their argument they're saying 'oh you can't use these!'
Well, what surprises me is that back when T was thought to be overpowered, threads popped up and STAYED up for weeks. Now you can't find a single thread that talks about Z being somewhat overpowered. I think the small population of Zergs is also harmful too as when one in 128 or whatever doesn't win a tournament, people think "Oh Zergs fine." When in reality only 5/128 were zerg.
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Everyone remember, Blizzard has said MULTIPLE times that anything bigger than a 5% margin one way or the either could even BEGIN to describe a potentially "unbalanced" situation. With that in mind, I suggest everyone looks at Korea's numbers and understand that their strategies have made the game almost perfectly "balanced"...
the real situation is that we are all noobs and need to catch up to korea in terms of strategy instead of just blaming "balance" issues that obviously (if you look at the averages as a WHOLE) come out to being 50% +/- 5% (i know there are outliers but that can easily be explained by lack of strategy that the koreans clearly have developed)
If I were blizzard I would tell everyone to suck it up and learn to play well like the koreans 
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On November 08 2010 05:34 MagnusHyperion wrote:Everyone remember, Blizzard has said MULTIPLE times that anything bigger than a 5% margin one way or the either could even BEGIN to describe a potentially "unbalanced" situation. With that in mind, I suggest everyone looks at Korea's numbers and understand that their strategies have made the game almost perfectly "balanced"... the real situation is that we are all noobs and need to catch up to korea in terms of strategy instead of just blaming "balance" issues that obviously (if you look at the averages as a WHOLE) come out to being 50% +/- 5% (i know there are outliers but that can easily be explained by lack of strategy that the koreans clearly have developed) If I were blizzard I would tell everyone to suck it up and learn to play well like the koreans
Sadly most players like both the dedication and the motivation to do such a thing.
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I think whats worse than people using these percentages for balance discussions is the fact that blizzard uses these as a base for their balance changes.
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Lol so not surprised that PvT is 56.5%, but P's just love to bitch even when they're up 13%.
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On November 08 2010 05:34 MagnusHyperion wrote:
Everyone remember, Blizzard has said MULTIPLE times that anything bigger than a 5% margin one way or the either could even BEGIN to describe a potentially "unbalanced" situation. With that in mind, I suggest everyone looks at Korea's numbers and understand that their strategies have made the game almost perfectly "balanced"...
Well, if I understand it correctly, PvZ is potentially imbalanced in Korea (47.4% vs 52.6%), at a 5.2% difference.
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On November 08 2010 05:30 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 03:37 oxxo wrote:
Hilarious how before the latest patch people were using these same stats to prove T was 'overpowered'. Now that the stats actually don't back up their argument they're saying 'oh you can't use these!' Well, what surprises me is that back when T was thought to be overpowered, threads popped up and STAYED up for weeks. Now you can't find a single thread that talks about Z being somewhat overpowered. I think the small population of Zergs is also harmful too as when one in 128 or whatever doesn't win a tournament, people think "Oh Zergs fine." When in reality only 5/128 were zerg.
maybe because terran indeed was OP (see huge nerfs and style shifts and still dominating most tournaments) and people are just crying about Z cause they couldnt adapt/their builds dont mean instawin anymore?
you really are trying hard to justify your opinion
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After 43 ladder matches since 1.1.2, these are my statistics (1700 random diamond):
*vP 14 8-6-0 57%
*vT 12 7-4-1 63%
*vZ 17 13-3-1 81%
Pv* 15 9-6-0 60%
PvP 3 0-3-0 0%
PvT 4 2-2-0 50%
PvZ 8 7-1-0 87%
Tv* 18 13-5-0 72%
TvP 7 5-2-0 71%
TvT 4 3-1-0 75%
TvZ 7 5-2-0 71%
Zv* 10 6-2-2 75%
ZvP 4 3-1-0 75%
ZvT 4 2-1-1 66%
ZvZ 2 1-0-1 100%
I still eat Zergs for breakfast, but I'm pretty good playing them by myself. I currently don't see any huge balance problems anymore. Nevertheless, I severely criticize both the league policy (divide et impera), the statistics policy (which doesn't exist) and the balance policy (weakening everything, not maintaining unit roles).
The whole procedure of balancing by overall looking at ....... [insert master's thesis here] ....... is cheap.
edit: T surely was overpowered. I regularly crushed two times the army sizes of P and Z armies with T in the beta and the early sc2 versions, mainly because they outrange everything.
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On November 08 2010 05:34 MagnusHyperion wrote:If I were blizzard I would tell everyone to suck it up and learn to play well like the koreans
Everybody needs an invisible bogeyman to blame. When you're not one of the ten best players in the world, chances are that you didn't play well enough to whine about anything. And if you are, your job is to stop whining about it and get better. So really, people should just play the game.
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On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 17:24 Dommk wrote:Click for Full blog postNorth America – Diamond- PvT - 56.5%
- PvZ - 47.9%
- TvZ - 49.1%
Korea – Diamond- PvT - 48.3%
- PvZ - 47.4%
- TvZ - 50.5%
Europe – Diamond- PvT - 45.3%
- PvZ - 51.6%
- TvZ - 55.0%
SEA – Diamond- PvT 54.9%
- PvZ 45.0%
- TvZ 46.8%
Pretty interesting to see how different each region is The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady.
Why is this guy not at least warned for this post, if not banned? This is an absurb statement with no support.
Win percentages in diamond don't really mean much at all. I could teach my grandma to macro to get into diamond. Win percentages at the high levels are the only things that can give indications of balance, if anything can at all.
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On November 08 2010 05:52 ZlaSHeR wrote:
Lol so not surprised that PvT is 56.5%, but P's just love to bitch even when they're up 13%.
way to totally ignore the stats in korea and europe. Prime example of using statistics to prove your bias. Should get a job at fox news.
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Yeah, I think that the race balance right now is close enough that map tweaks would be enough to rebalance matchups if need be.
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On November 08 2010 05:55 GabrielB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 05:34 MagnusHyperion wrote:
Everyone remember, Blizzard has said MULTIPLE times that anything bigger than a 5% margin one way or the either could even BEGIN to describe a potentially "unbalanced" situation. With that in mind, I suggest everyone looks at Korea's numbers and understand that their strategies have made the game almost perfectly "balanced"...
Well, if I understand it correctly, PvZ is potentially imbalanced in Korea (47.4% vs 52.6%), at a 5.2% difference.
No, you've misunderstood the 5% range.
Blizzard considers a match-up imbalanced if one race wins more than 55% of the time, or, a 10% difference between win-rates.
It looks to me like TvZ is about as balanced as a match-up can be, which is great news.
PvZ looks fairly balanced as well.
The problem, of course, is how to deal with PvT, without ruining the balance of TvZ. Seems to me that Toss needs some race-specific changes to change the TvP problem of early vs late game (which is not real balance).
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why should maps matter? If people are sitting there playing starcraft 15 in 500 years, there will still me maps that favour one race or another. It's bizaare and naive to think this can ever be otherwise.
Of course, that's not to say showing map statistics won't help build better maps overall...but the improved maps will still favour various races for various reasons. Especially given there has been and will be more balance changes (reapers go from being deadly around cliffs to being more or less a completely redundant unit within one patch). Todays terran map is tomorrows zerg map etc etc
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so it is north american terrans that are to blame for toss constantly being nerfed or what? dont you guys know how to build marauders or what?
On November 08 2010 07:09 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 17:35 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 07 2010 17:24 Dommk wrote:Click for Full blog postNorth America – Diamond- PvT - 56.5%
- PvZ - 47.9%
- TvZ - 49.1%
Korea – Diamond- PvT - 48.3%
- PvZ - 47.4%
- TvZ - 50.5%
Europe – Diamond- PvT - 45.3%
- PvZ - 51.6%
- TvZ - 55.0%
SEA – Diamond- PvT 54.9%
- PvZ 45.0%
- TvZ 46.8%
Pretty interesting to see how different each region is The stats show that Zerg is OP in 3 out of 4 regions. Not surprising - this is something the community suspected aleady. Why is this guy not at least warned for this post, if not banned? This is an absurb statement with no support. Win percentages in diamond don't really mean much at all. I could teach my grandma to macro to get into diamond. Win percentages at the high levels are the only things that can give indications of balance, if anything can at all.
the lack of humour on TL forums never ceases to amaze me.
On November 08 2010 02:00 Sepp wrote:
Ladder numbers don't mean anything because, based on the ladder mechanism, it should be around 50% even if its completely imbalanced. For instance, in the hypothetical situation that Z is very OP and T very UP, a top T will be matched against a average Z and win % will still be around 50% for both races. The number of Z's that are top ranked will only increase, which could also be an artifact as a consequence of higher Z skill level.
A 5% win difference in a matchup is hugh actually, considering it should be 50% based on ladder mechanism.
yes! this is why its a bad idea for blizz to even release this kind of statistic to the general public - because 99% of the ppl will not realize that these statistics are meaningless with b.nets matchmaking system
edit: actually they said they adjusted for that in the blog.
" In effect, the matchmaking system could be hiding balance issues -- if we didn't use an adjusted win percentage which takes the matchmaker's effects into account.
What's an adjusted win percentage? Well, while the math behind calculating an adjusted win percentage is extremely complex,..."
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These statistics show that the game is pretty damn balanced! Pretty awesome indeed. :O
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wow the regions are soooo different.
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These numbers are completely meaningless, and would be no matter what the numbers are. For example, I could never win a TvZ in a Bo3 against an equally-skilled player but I win 75% on ladder by 5rax allining with SCVs because that's the only chance I have and it works as long as I never have to play the person again.
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On November 08 2010 09:35 iEchoic wrote:
These numbers are completely meaningless, and would be no matter what the numbers are. For example, I could never win a TvZ in a Bo3 against an equally-skilled player but I win 75% on ladder by 5rax allining with SCVs because that's the only chance I have and it works as long as I never have to play the person again.
Ah will thats why your always going to struggle in tvz. If all you do is all in no wonder you suck at the match up lol don't blame balance ^^.
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On November 08 2010 09:36 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 09:35 iEchoic wrote:
These numbers are completely meaningless, and would be no matter what the numbers are. For example, I could never win a TvZ in a Bo3 against an equally-skilled player but I win 75% on ladder by 5rax allining with SCVs because that's the only chance I have and it works as long as I never have to play the person again. Ah will thats why your always going to struggle in tvz. If all you do is all in no wonder you suck at the match up lol don't blame balance ^^.
I practice in customs TvZ all the time. Despite practicing TvZ many many hours I still can't beat equally-skilled players. There's no point feeding people wins on ladder so I might as well 5rax allin.
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EPT
