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On November 06 2010 01:18 Protoss_Carrier wrote:
just because terran early game is incredibly strong doesn't mean its late game is weak.
terrans earlygame isn't too strong anymore. You have no possibility to kill a Zerg in the earlygame if he scouts your timing. This isn't bad. No. Its good. Now Blizzard has to fix the endgame.
SC2 should be like that: The players who makes most mistakes loses.
Not the player who has the stronger race. And right now Zerg is too strong in the lategame.
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On November 05 2010 23:57 Tenks wrote:
I don't understand this thread. Boxer, a complete legend, voices his opinion that Terran is on the verge of being UP and the TL community screams "WHINER!!" but FruitDealer says it just a few months ago and TL community screams "PREACH IT BROTHER!!"
Makes no sense. Honestly I feel like the game is fairly balanced at the moment; maybe leaning a tad towards Zerg/Terran and against Toss.
Because while Terrans are complaining about being UP, the GSL top 4 is STILL 3/4 Terran. When Z was complaining about being UP, they had won something like 3 tournaments out of 50 since release and GSL had 1 Z in top 8. Also, BoxeR just doesn't have a very good understanding of TvZ in SC2.
If you look at recent results, it's at least much more even with Terrans still winning the most.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
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I think a really good change which would balance a lot things, would be hatchery with 400 mineral, (giving 9 supply). And another would be no spawning pool before overlord
Why ?
1) the overlord give a really good advantage to scoot opponent. Its clear that zerg has map control
2) hatch 300 means zerg can expand easier which help a lot early game. (not talking about inject larva and making drone)
3) speedzergling are way too fast and cost effective. Not to mention also that zerg on creep (but even without creep for speedgling/badling and muta) has a really high speed advantage.
4) Ability to tech switch
5) Very strong late game units that they can pop out of the same larva of the begining, while terran need to build a lot of factory/starport and with the tech lab will only be able to produce them 1 by 1.
Now we can take the words of idra "you don't respect yourself if you play terran" and put "zerg" instead of terran.
Take a look of the terran : marines are quite useless in small number, and when you got them in mass, they got slaughtered by colossus / templars / ultralisks / badling etc... (unless you have exceptionnal micro like Foxer)
The reaper takes insane amount of time to build which makes the terran that build only one to have to make ANOTHER barrack (each time you build 1 reaper you can see your mineral go to 300~400 quite fast).
For terran :
- reduce reaper build time as it was and give them 10 hp more.
- make maraudeurs faster and unable to stim
- reduce battlecruiser buildingtime and/or add them +1 dommage.
Well whatever its clear that terran is now quite underpowered.
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On November 06 2010 01:39 Tonyoh wrote:
I think a really good change which would balance a lot things, would be hatchery with 400 mineral, (giving 9 supply). And another would be no spawning pool before overlord
Why ?
1) the overlord give a really good advantage to scoot opponent. Its clear that zerg has map control
2) hatch 300 means zerg can expand easier which help a lot early game. (not talking about inject larva and making drone)
3) speedzergling are way too fast and cost effective. Not to mention also that zerg on creep (but even without creep for speedgling/badling and muta) has a really high speed advantage.
4) Ability to tech switch
5) Very strong late game units that they can pop out of the same larva of the begining, while terran need to build a lot of factory/starport and with the tech lab will only be able to produce them 1 by 1.
Now we can take the words of idra "you don't respect yourself if you play terran" and put "zerg" instead of terran.
Take a look of the terran : marines are quite useless in small number, and when you got them in mass, they got slaughtered by colossus / templars / ultralisks / badling etc... (unless you have exceptionnal micro like Foxer)
The reaper takes insane amount of time to build which makes the terran that build only one to have to make ANOTHER barrack (each time you build 1 reaper you can see your mineral go to 300~400 quite fast).
For terran :
- reduce reaper build time as it was and give them 10 hp more.
- make maraudeurs faster and unable to stim
- reduce battlecruiser buildingtime and/or add them +1 dommage.
Well whatever its clear that terran is now quite underpowered.
Complaining in this manner is exactly why community feedback is often ignored by Blizzard.
I respect BoxeR, + Show Spoiler +GSL Ro4 spoilers + Show Spoiler +but he played like an absolute fool today in the GSL semi-finals. If at first your proxy barracks opening doesn't work, try try again...4 times?
Don't get me wrong, BoxeR is a great player. His TvT and TvP is amazingly fun to watch, and his style works so well in those matchups. He's either trying to hard to be original in TvZ or he is just totally ignorant of the idea that you can't force your playstyle against every race because you're BoxeR.
BoxeR is a great player, but he needs to be willing to experiment and alter his style in order to succeed.
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On November 06 2010 01:39 Tonyoh wrote:
I think a really good change which would balance a lot things, would be hatchery with 400 mineral, (giving 9 supply). And another would be no spawning pool before overlord
Why ?
1) the overlord give a really good advantage to scoot opponent. Its clear that zerg has map control
2) hatch 300 means zerg can expand easier which help a lot early game. (not talking about inject larva and making drone)
3) speedzergling are way too fast and cost effective. Not to mention also that zerg on creep (but even without creep for speedgling/badling and muta) has a really high speed advantage.
4) Ability to tech switch
5) Very strong late game units that they can pop out of the same larva of the begining, while terran need to build a lot of factory/starport and with the tech lab will only be able to produce them 1 by 1.
Now we can take the words of idra "you don't respect yourself if you play terran" and put "zerg" instead of terran.
Take a look of the terran : marines are quite useless in small number, and when you got them in mass, they got slaughtered by colossus / templars / ultralisks / badling etc... (unless you have exceptionnal micro like Foxer)
The reaper takes insane amount of time to build which makes the terran that build only one to have to make ANOTHER barrack (each time you build 1 reaper you can see your mineral go to 300~400 quite fast).
For terran :
- reduce reaper build time as it was and give them 10 hp more.
- make maraudeurs faster and unable to stim
- reduce battlecruiser buildingtime and/or add them +1 dommage.
Well whatever its clear that terran is now quite underpowered.
Thank god you don't work for Blizzard. "Hmm... T early game is too strong and late game too weak and Z early game is too weak while late game too strong. Let's make horrible suggestions like making Z even weaker early game and Terran early game even stronger. Oh and I'll insert some Terran UP whining too even though I'm a bronze-level player, since that's the new fad."
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On November 06 2010 01:50 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 01:39 Tonyoh wrote:
I think a really good change which would balance a lot things, would be hatchery with 400 mineral, (giving 9 supply). And another would be no spawning pool before overlord
Why ?
1) the overlord give a really good advantage to scoot opponent. Its clear that zerg has map control
2) hatch 300 means zerg can expand easier which help a lot early game. (not talking about inject larva and making drone)
3) speedzergling are way too fast and cost effective. Not to mention also that zerg on creep (but even without creep for speedgling/badling and muta) has a really high speed advantage.
4) Ability to tech switch
5) Very strong late game units that they can pop out of the same larva of the begining, while terran need to build a lot of factory/starport and with the tech lab will only be able to produce them 1 by 1.
Now we can take the words of idra "you don't respect yourself if you play terran" and put "zerg" instead of terran.
Take a look of the terran : marines are quite useless in small number, and when you got them in mass, they got slaughtered by colossus / templars / ultralisks / badling etc... (unless you have exceptionnal micro like Foxer)
The reaper takes insane amount of time to build which makes the terran that build only one to have to make ANOTHER barrack (each time you build 1 reaper you can see your mineral go to 300~400 quite fast).
For terran :
- reduce reaper build time as it was and give them 10 hp more.
- make maraudeurs faster and unable to stim
- reduce battlecruiser buildingtime and/or add them +1 dommage.
Well whatever its clear that terran is now quite underpowered. Complaining in this manner is exactly why community feedback is often ignored by Blizzard. I respect BoxeR, + Show Spoiler +GSL Ro4 spoilers + Show Spoiler +but he played like an absolute fool today in the GSL semi-finals. If at first your proxy barracks opening doesn't work, try try again...4 times?
Don't get me wrong, BoxeR is a great player. His TvT and TvP is amazingly fun to watch, and his style works so well in those matchups. He's either trying to hard to be original in TvZ or he is just totally ignorant of the idea that you can't force your playstyle against every race because you're BoxeR. BoxeR is a great player, but he needs to be willing to experiment and alter his style in order to succeed.
His proxy was an epic fail because at that point he had probably just given up on woinning and was just doing whatever he could to try to win ONE game.
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On November 06 2010 01:39 Tonyoh wrote:
I think a really good change which would balance a lot things, would be hatchery with 400 mineral, (giving 9 supply). And another would be no spawning pool before overlord
I suspect that you may not play zerg...
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On November 06 2010 01:31 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 01:18 Protoss_Carrier wrote:
just because terran early game is incredibly strong doesn't mean its late game is weak. terrans earlygame isn't too strong anymore. You have no possibility to kill a Zerg in the earlygame if he scouts your timing. This isn't bad. No. Its good. Now Blizzard has to fix the endgame. SC2 should be like that: The players who makes most mistakes loses. Not the player who has the stronger race. And right now Zerg is too strong in the lategame.
Yup, agree with this. Late game for Terran vs Zerg is not balanced well - it's practially an auto victory for Zerg. Blizzard nees to address this.
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And another would be no spawning pool before overlord
Zerg starts with an Overlord. Maybe you don't know enough about the game to suggest balance changes?
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On November 06 2010 02:21 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 01:31 supersoft wrote:On November 06 2010 01:18 Protoss_Carrier wrote:
just because terran early game is incredibly strong doesn't mean its late game is weak. terrans earlygame isn't too strong anymore. You have no possibility to kill a Zerg in the earlygame if he scouts your timing. This isn't bad. No. Its good. Now Blizzard has to fix the endgame. SC2 should be like that: The players who makes most mistakes loses. Not the player who has the stronger race. And right now Zerg is too strong in the lategame. Yup, agree with this. Late game for Terran vs Zerg is not balanced well - it's practially an auto victory for Zerg. Blizzard nees to address this.
Yeah, you can basically just quit once the zerg has his 3rd base saturated. You really need to do damage before then. You can't win late game against a zerg on equal terms. That's just stupid. Same with protoss. Ofcourse against protoss you still have this early game advantage so that makes it ''balanced''. Still stupid tho.
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On November 06 2010 01:55 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 01:39 Tonyoh wrote:
I think a really good change which would balance a lot things, would be hatchery with 400 mineral, (giving 9 supply). And another would be no spawning pool before overlord
Why ?
1) the overlord give a really good advantage to scoot opponent. Its clear that zerg has map control
2) hatch 300 means zerg can expand easier which help a lot early game. (not talking about inject larva and making drone)
3) speedzergling are way too fast and cost effective. Not to mention also that zerg on creep (but even without creep for speedgling/badling and muta) has a really high speed advantage.
4) Ability to tech switch
5) Very strong late game units that they can pop out of the same larva of the begining, while terran need to build a lot of factory/starport and with the tech lab will only be able to produce them 1 by 1.
Now we can take the words of idra "you don't respect yourself if you play terran" and put "zerg" instead of terran.
Take a look of the terran : marines are quite useless in small number, and when you got them in mass, they got slaughtered by colossus / templars / ultralisks / badling etc... (unless you have exceptionnal micro like Foxer)
The reaper takes insane amount of time to build which makes the terran that build only one to have to make ANOTHER barrack (each time you build 1 reaper you can see your mineral go to 300~400 quite fast).
For terran :
- reduce reaper build time as it was and give them 10 hp more.
- make maraudeurs faster and unable to stim
- reduce battlecruiser buildingtime and/or add them +1 dommage.
Well whatever its clear that terran is now quite underpowered. Thank god you don't work for Blizzard. "Hmm... T early game is too strong and late game too weak and Z early game is too weak while late game too strong. Let's make horrible suggestions like making Z even weaker early game and Terran early game even stronger. Oh and I'll insert some Terran UP whining too even though I'm a bronze-level player, since that's the new fad."
No thats the new trick.
He bufs up terran so hard they cant possible lose in early game so they dont need to worry about late game 
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you terrans that are qqing dont seem to follow the trend. now a days i seen terran just mass marine and a really fast expo with a very strong timing attack with tank marines. which is really freaken strong to hold off. its not just mass harrass anymore. please watch foxer and some other good terrans plz.
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On November 06 2010 03:03 Looky wrote:
you terrans that are qqing dont seem to follow the trend. now a days i seen terran just mass marine and a really fast expo with a very strong timing attack with tank marines. which is really freaken strong to hold off. its not just mass harrass anymore. please watch foxer and some other good terrans plz.
The reason why foxer's style works for him is because he has over 400 apm, thats not a very common thing.
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On November 06 2010 03:09 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 03:03 Looky wrote:
you terrans that are qqing dont seem to follow the trend. now a days i seen terran just mass marine and a really fast expo with a very strong timing attack with tank marines. which is really freaken strong to hold off. its not just mass harrass anymore. please watch foxer and some other good terrans plz. The reason why foxer's style works for him is because he has over 400 apm, thats not a very common thing.
Not too long after SC2 released everyone complained that the skill roof for SC2 was waaaay too low, compared to BW. I know nothing about Foxer's style but if you are right and it needs 400 apm to work, well then... What are we complaining about? It's obviously a viable way to play, and attainable if this guy can do it. Thats what made BW great right? SC2 looks like it has a few tricks up it's sleeve after all.
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The patch in gsl didnt hit till after round of 64 in GSL, so saying there are alot of terrans in GSL is retarded. Boxer says Zerg is OP and I believe him, the last patch was ridiculous not only in boosting zerg, but in nerfing terrans.
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Hey another one post wonder complaining about terran being weak. Gsl 3 out 4 are terran. What are you complaining about?
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On November 06 2010 03:47 Johoseph wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 03:09 DonKey_ wrote:On November 06 2010 03:03 Looky wrote:
you terrans that are qqing dont seem to follow the trend. now a days i seen terran just mass marine and a really fast expo with a very strong timing attack with tank marines. which is really freaken strong to hold off. its not just mass harrass anymore. please watch foxer and some other good terrans plz. The reason why foxer's style works for him is because he has over 400 apm, thats not a very common thing. Not too long after SC2 released everyone complained that the skill roof for SC2 was waaaay too low, compared to BW. I know nothing about Foxer's style but if you are right and it needs 400 apm to work, well then... What are we complaining about? It's obviously a viable way to play, and attainable if this guy can do it. Thats what made BW great right? SC2 looks like it has a few tricks up it's sleeve after all.
Foxers style takes 1 slip up.
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People need to stop hating on Boxer's proxy raxes. He's not proxy raxing because he's stupid, he's proxy raxing because he knows there's no way to beat a macro-oriented zerg player in the lategame. It's his only option.
Foxer will be doing a lot of the same cheesy early stuff or he will lose (he will lose anyway).
It's easy to use Foxer as a model of how TvZ is played, but Foxer basically lost the series. Kyrix just gave him the win in game 5. Had Kyrix not macroed like a plat player, we'd all be talking about how stupid Foxer's strategies were. Think about it for a second: Foxer massively outplayed Kyrix in the series and still basically lost. Stop using Foxer v Kyrix as an example of how TvZ should be played.
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Everyone is complaining about zerg and t being OP or UP but no one is mentioning Protoss that much
Are we Protoss so less in numbers and just willing to adapt to the changes or I missed all the P whining ?
Honestly everyone can complain what they want but in the end they still have to adapt rather than complain. You can't expect everything to be the same when a balance patch comes out. Rather you need to be willing to adapt and learn which most players hasn't had enough time for it yet.
The game is still evolving and with 2 expansions and tons of patches why are people complaining about that every thing should be like this or that when clearly Blizzard is the only one with statistics which the players don't have.
chill out and go have fun instead of whining.
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I just want to say (not commenting about UP/OP), but saying "oh, 3 Ts still made the final 4 and only 1 Z like last season"...is pretty dumb.
If you want to use GSL results at all, then we already see the huge win % of Zs over T, the main reason we ended up with what we have is because 1) Kyrix barely lost to Foxer, 2) ITR's bracket was a coinflip and may have been Genius entering the final 4, 3) Nada/Boxer bracket was the only guaranteed Terran, and 4) the great Zergs were all in Bracket A or Bracket D, and DOUBLE ZvZ in a round of 16, followed by ANOTHER ZVZ to end off the round of 8 knocked out 3 zergs.
Tl;DR don't comment about the final 4 results and compare them to last season, the road of how they got there is completely different from when Terran was OP last season.
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EPT
