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So, i understand the point and value to spamming your APM at the early part of the game to warm your hands/fingers and thinking up. Im only a 5-0 Platinum zerg because i havnt felt ready to Ladder, but i can, for the most part roll over 1400-1500 Diamonds in custom games, random and practices. during the early stage, my APM Avg. is between 200-280 depending on the type of match and how much i care to win. But around the 10-15 minute mark when i actually need to pay attention and be precise with my Macro/Micro and stop straight spamming, my APM begins dropping to around 140-180 Avg. And that seems to handle everything perfectly for me, as in, i cant think of anything id' need that would require more Avg. APM than that, other than to continually spam actions throughout the entire game, and right click the extra 10 unnecessary times.
The point im trying to get at is- I watch streams and Pro-matches very regularly, and i watched the Gosugamers Team EG vs NrG games yesterday.  Ahhboxxah all-killed Team EG (i think, wasnt able to watch the game after Incontrol) with an Avg. APM of 290-300, at the end of the games. So, am i just missing something that requires a whole 100-150 extra average APM or is it just pure spamming every chance you get, and if so, whats the benefit other than carpal tunnel?
TLDR Version: Is there any benefit to having an Average APM of 300, in SC2, even through 20+ minute matches, when it seems that 200ish Average APM is more than enough, give or take 30 or so APM. In the end, if your capable of handling 300 APM, you'll use 300 APM when you need it.
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The 300 apm avg player doesn't peak at 300 apm as you seem to think, he peaks at like 500.
You need lots of APM for multitasking and harrassing, and as Zerg to click through each of your hatcheries repeatedly to see how far along the spawn larvae is, to spread your army into 20 different parts in split-seconds, and so on. No one as of yet is even close to "having nothing to do" with their APM.
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Do you win all of your games?
If you answered no to the previous question then 140-180 avg apm is not enough to win all the time. The better you play, the higher your APM gets. It's not the other way around.
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Considering that many top players (Idra, for example) have 150-200 sc2 APM, I would say you should not be too worried about where you are.
On October 28 2010 11:03 Backpack wrote:
Do you win all of your games?
If you answered no to the previous question then 140-180 avg apm is not enough to win all the time. The better you play, the higher your APM gets. It's not the other way around.
This is silly. Just because he does not win all of his games, it does not follow that his APM is holding him back. It seems more likely that decision making, timing, build order knowledge, etc. are holding him back given his decent APM range but lack of actual games played.
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I have a friend that puts CC on ctrl+2 and spams the shit out of ctrl+1 and ctrl+2 like
12121212121212121....
So no, I'd rather be a 140 apm player that has good game sense/decent multitasking than a 300 plus dude who doesn't even multitask but just spams.
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I understand Multi-tasking takes alot of APM, but if you watched the games, it didnt seem like he was doing anymore Mult-tasking than Boxer did against Idra with 240 or so Avg. APM.
Does ANYONE win all of their games? no, i win alot more than lose though
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At that high APM players are typically doing all the little things that give you like .5% better chance to win in addition to the obvious and big stuff. Slightly adjusting overlord positioning, moving the queen to the best side of the hatchery, constantly checking on upgrades and spawn larva, repositioning units so they're in a better formation when not being used, Moving a scouting unit around to check for expos/proxies/hidden junk, and so on.
At a certain point it's also possible he's bouncing around constantly to different view points to make sure nothing misses his attention.
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On October 28 2010 11:08 EvilNalu wrote:
This is silly. Just because he does not win all of his games, it does not follow that his APM is holding him back. It seems more likely that decision making, timing, build order knowledge, etc. are holding him back given his decent APM range but lack of actual games played.
My point was that if you aren't winning then having higher APM can never be a bad thing.
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The only thing I can think of that would cause someone to need higher than 200 average apm is if they micro amazingly while keeping up on their macro etc., but honestly I don't think I have seen anyone micro that well since SC2 has come out  . I think this excess APM is mostly just to keep a fast rhythm with spamming.
Spamming may night actually help physically, but sometimes it helps mentally. It keeps your mind in the game and keeps you thinking and reacting at a fast, rhythmic pace, which does help.
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I can Manage all those little things with an Average APM of 180, because i can peak 250-300 when i need it. So ultimately what im curious on, is whether or not people think its beneficial to them, to continually spam for speed and constant babysitting of the unnecessary things, when you can manage all of it with a precise Average of -200.
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Can I ask you why you haven't started ladder yet, when you can 'roll' 1,500 diamond players?
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i feel so bad reading threads like this becouse my apm averages at 90-100, so slow =[
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i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players.
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On October 28 2010 11:13 Logo wrote:
At that high APM players are typically doing all the little things that give you like .5% better chance to win in addition to the obvious and big stuff. Slightly adjusting overlord positioning, moving the queen to the best side of the hatchery, constantly checking on upgrades and spawn larva, repositioning units so they're in a better formation when not being used, Moving a scouting unit around to check for expos/proxies/hidden junk, and so on.
At a certain point it's also possible he's bouncing around constantly to different view points to make sure nothing misses his attention.
watch TesteR he does all the little things as toss and thus 300apm avrg
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On October 28 2010 11:10 Licmyobelisk wrote:
I have a friend that puts CC on ctrl+2 and spams the shit out of ctrl+1 and ctrl+2 like
12121212121212121....
So no, I'd rather be a 140 apm player that has good game sense/decent multitasking than a 300 plus dude who doesn't even multitask but just spams.
Someone who can keep up 300 apm throughout the majority of the game is no joke. More than likely you will find that the best players have high APM throughout the entire match. Like the OP says, he may spam to 300 in the early game but it settles down to 140-180. I honestly would rather have 300 apm spamming into the game than topping out at 140. The ability to spam up to that much already proves he can do that many actions even if they're useless. Once you get into the rhythm of spamming, you can multitask a lot more due to your hands and fingers continuously moving.
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that guy who did the all kill might have 300 apm but he is just spamming 565656565 or 12121212121212 (or going from one ctrl group to another rapidly) WHILE he is macroing and microing.
If you want more APM look for the APM during battles or when you are getting harassed or doing the harass. See what your apm is then and exactly what you are doing. This is where APM is most important. Being able to control two attacks in different locations, splitting up your army in seconds, while macroing, creep spreading, scouting, etc. Getting high APM during the start or when you are doing nothing is easy. Doing it while getting attacked from three sides and DTs is not easy.
Anyone can spam.
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Unless your APM is hopelessly low it should never be a concern. Hopelessly low in SC2 is down in the range of 20-30.
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On October 28 2010 11:34 scph wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:10 Licmyobelisk wrote:
I have a friend that puts CC on ctrl+2 and spams the shit out of ctrl+1 and ctrl+2 like
12121212121212121....
So no, I'd rather be a 140 apm player that has good game sense/decent multitasking than a 300 plus dude who doesn't even multitask but just spams. Someone who can keep up 300 apm throughout the majority of the game is no joke. More than likely you will find that the best players have high APM throughout the entire match. Like the OP says, he may spam to 300 in the early game but it settles down to 140-180. I honestly would rather have 300 apm spamming into the game than topping out at 140. The ability to spam up to that much already proves he can do that many actions even if they're useless. Once you get into the rhythm of spamming, you can multitask a lot more due to your hands and fingers continuously moving.
rofl the ABILITY to spam to 300? pushing two buttons rapidly or clicking a thousand times is an ability? Ffs anyone can do that. Yes, it is for warmup and getting into the flow but just because you can spam to 300 does not mean you are good.
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Having a higher APM is important to being good, but EAPM (Effective APM) is the key to the improvement. I try to never spam, and as a result, my early game APM is like 20 or 30. But, as the game progresses, i eventually bring the average up to about 85-90, so like 110 or so real APM. I realize this is slow, but i have almost trained myself to not spam, so i can get an accurate display of my apm improvements.
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On October 28 2010 11:31 Silament wrote:
i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players.
Even the best player in the world will lose to cheeses from time to time. If that is your hangup then you can never ladder. Is that what you want?
Your record will not remain X-0 for much longer when you finally ladder no matter how good you get before you play.
Plus, didn't blizzard announce they will have seasons and reset leagues/records periodically?
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On October 28 2010 11:42 EvilNalu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:31 Silament wrote:
i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players. Even the best player in the world will lose to cheeses from time to time. If that is your hangup then you can never ladder. Is that what you want? Your record will not remain X-0 for much longer when you finally ladder no matter how good you get before you play. Plus, didn't blizzard announce they will have seasons and reset leagues/records periodically?
I know, im not shootin for 100-0, but 100-20 looks an feels alot better than 100-80
Im sure there will be resets, but if you played D2 at all.. (different game entirely, i know) there WERE ladder resets..... keyword=WERE -- as in, incredibly rare
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On October 28 2010 11:42 EvilNalu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:31 Silament wrote:
i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players. Even the best player in the world will lose to cheeses from time to time. If that is your hangup then you can never ladder. Is that what you want? Your record will not remain X-0 for much longer when you finally ladder no matter how good you get before you play. Plus, didn't blizzard announce they will have seasons and reset leagues/records periodically?
lol...so you think a bad player is going to beat you? No...a good player is going to wipe the floor with you. Trust me bro you are nowhere close to even think about being a perfect SC2 player. Grow a pair and stop living in a dream thinking you are automatically a 2000 point player.
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On October 28 2010 10:58 Silament wrote:So, i understand the point and value to spamming your APM at the early part of the game to warm your hands/fingers and thinking up. Im only a 5-0 Platinum zerg because i havnt felt ready to Ladder, but i can, for the most part roll over 1400-1500 Diamonds in custom games, random and practices. during the early stage, my APM Avg. is between 200-280 depending on the type of match and how much i care to win. But around the 10-15 minute mark when i actually need to pay attention and be precise with my Macro/Micro and stop straight spamming, my APM begins dropping to around 140-180 Avg. And that seems to handle everything perfectly for me, as in, i cant think of anything id' need that would require more Avg. APM than that, other than to continually spam actions throughout the entire game, and right click the extra 10 unnecessary times. The point im trying to get at is- I watch streams and Pro-matches very regularly, and i watched the Gosugamers Team EG vs NrG games yesterday. Ahhboxxah all-killed Team EG (i think, wasnt able to watch the game after Incontrol) with an Avg. APM of 290-300, at the end of the games. So, am i just missing something that requires a whole 100-150 extra average APM or is it just pure spamming every chance you get, and if so, whats the benefit other than carpal tunnel? TLDR Version: Is there any benefit to having an Average APM of 300, in SC2, even through 20+ minute matches, when it seems that 200ish Average APM is more than enough, give or take 30 or so APM. In the end, if your capable of handling 300 APM, you'll use 300 APM when you need it.
apm is about rhythm and methodical actions. pros dont go OMGZ IF I GETS MY APM TO 300 I WIN LUZLUZULZ. they just know what rhythm works for them and keep it consistent throughout the game.
i used to have low APM and never spammed but ever since i started to spam ive been playing a lot better because it forces me to do things consistently and when there is idle time it stands out and i can fix that for next time.
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On October 28 2010 11:46 Silament wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:42 EvilNalu wrote:On October 28 2010 11:31 Silament wrote:
i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players. Even the best player in the world will lose to cheeses from time to time. If that is your hangup then you can never ladder. Is that what you want? Your record will not remain X-0 for much longer when you finally ladder no matter how good you get before you play. Plus, didn't blizzard announce they will have seasons and reset leagues/records periodically? I know, im not shootin for 100-0, but 100-20 looks an feels alot better than 100-80 Im sure there will be resets, but if you played D2 at all.. (different game entirely, i know) there WERE ladder resets..... keyword=WERE -- as in, incredibly rare
lol go ladder and come back in a month. Let's see your 100-20 then.
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Yes, they also announced that season2 begins soon so get your weebie geebies out of the way with what remains of s1.
going 100-20 is an unrealistic goal. That is an 83% win rate. Look at the best (ladder) players in the world. How many do you see with an 83% win rate? http://sc2ranks.com
Here is another link: http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/diamond/1/all/ratio
7 people in the world have that 83.3% win rate you covet. GOOD LUCK!
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Just so the OP knows, they're resetting the win/loss figures soon any way. You should also note that if you live your life in fear of failure you'll never set foot out of your house. Life begins where your comfort zone ends.
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This is a cleverly disguised "how do I raise my apm?" thread.
Well. Okay, not really.
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early game spam is for maintaining tempo and for warming up your fingers. its easier to start out fast and maintain a high speed than it is to start slow and suddenly speed up IMO
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Higher apm lets you perform more actions per minute. Pros need to perform more actions per minute, so they do. 200 apm is enough for decent play, but definitely not perfect play.
And I use to be hesitant to play ladder too. But then I realized nobody cares about ladder and even pros lose a lot (because you will have to face other good people eventually). I still don't ladder that much though because I hate the map pool.
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On October 28 2010 11:46 Silament wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:42 EvilNalu wrote:On October 28 2010 11:31 Silament wrote:
i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players. Even the best player in the world will lose to cheeses from time to time. If that is your hangup then you can never ladder. Is that what you want? Your record will not remain X-0 for much longer when you finally ladder no matter how good you get before you play. Plus, didn't blizzard announce they will have seasons and reset leagues/records periodically? I know, im not shootin for 100-0, but 100-20 looks an feels alot better than 100-80 Im sure there will be resets, but if you played D2 at all.. (different game entirely, i know) there WERE ladder resets..... keyword=WERE -- as in, incredibly rare
Why you even care about your ladder record when the entire point of the actual ladder is to get 50/50 ratio's is ridiculous. Ya some people have 70-80 percent win ratios but they probably played a TON of beta and were already really good.
Your record is irrelevent in a tournament which is what actually matters. 1400-1500 is nothing. Beating them says nothing about you going 100-20 lol. Also, they may have been offracing or trying shit against you in customs anyway.
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Aite, well... this thread went in a really different direction than was intended. My original thought got vaguely answered, if even, however... after readin, on a good note, ill probably start laddering once i get home hah. be back in a month with my 100-20 -.-
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On October 28 2010 12:03 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:46 Silament wrote:On October 28 2010 11:42 EvilNalu wrote:On October 28 2010 11:31 Silament wrote:
i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players. Even the best player in the world will lose to cheeses from time to time. If that is your hangup then you can never ladder. Is that what you want? Your record will not remain X-0 for much longer when you finally ladder no matter how good you get before you play. Plus, didn't blizzard announce they will have seasons and reset leagues/records periodically? I know, im not shootin for 100-0, but 100-20 looks an feels alot better than 100-80 Im sure there will be resets, but if you played D2 at all.. (different game entirely, i know) there WERE ladder resets..... keyword=WERE -- as in, incredibly rare Why you even care about your ladder record when the entire point of the actual ladder is to get 50/50 ratio's is ridiculous. Ya some people have 70-80 percent win ratios but they probably played a TON of beta and were already really good. Your record is irrelevent in a tournament which is what actually matters. 1400-1500 is nothing. Beating them says nothing about you going 100-20 lol. Also, they may have been offracing or trying shit against you in customs anyway.
Personal gratuity i guess. and im not saying 1400-1500 is high or extremely good, but no. they wernt off-racing or "trying shit" alot of these matches are against ppl ive met online specifically To practice with. not All randoms
P.S. the 100-20 deal... i wasnt being serious or saying thats a goal of mine, i was simply stating that 100-20 Looks better than 100-80.
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On October 28 2010 10:58 Silament wrote:So, i understand the point and value to spamming your APM at the early part of the game to warm your hands/fingers and thinking up. Im only a 5-0 Platinum zerg because i havnt felt ready to Ladder, but i can, for the most part roll over 1400-1500 Diamonds in custom games, random and practices. during the early stage, my APM Avg. is between 200-280 depending on the type of match and how much i care to win. But around the 10-15 minute mark when i actually need to pay attention and be precise with my Macro/Micro and stop straight spamming, my APM begins dropping to around 140-180 Avg. And that seems to handle everything perfectly for me, as in, i cant think of anything id' need that would require more Avg. APM than that, other than to continually spam actions throughout the entire game, and right click the extra 10 unnecessary times. The point im trying to get at is- I watch streams and Pro-matches very regularly, and i watched the Gosugamers Team EG vs NrG games yesterday. Ahhboxxah all-killed Team EG (i think, wasnt able to watch the game after Incontrol) with an Avg. APM of 290-300, at the end of the games. So, am i just missing something that requires a whole 100-150 extra average APM or is it just pure spamming every chance you get, and if so, whats the benefit other than carpal tunnel? TLDR Version: Is there any benefit to having an Average APM of 300, in SC2, even through 20+ minute matches, when it seems that 200ish Average APM is more than enough, give or take 30 or so APM. In the end, if your capable of handling 300 APM, you'll use 300 APM when you need it.
I watched / played Ahhboxxah at WCG Canada this year, and I can say - the guy is real good. He does spam up his APM a bit - but in my opinion you have the idea wrong of why some people choose to spam.
When you're spamming to increase your APM, you are selecting different groups of units / buildings without really thinking about it. It's more of a muscle memory thing than a concious decision. After a certain amount of time, other things start working their way into that "Muscle memory cycle" that you're building by spamming keys. instead of "12121212121212121212121212", maybe it turns into "1212121212121212121e1212121212121212". Now you're not just selecting your nexus, you're building a probe.
"But FaZe" you ask, "couldn't you just press 1 to select your Nexus, then e to build a probe?"
Yes, you could do that. However, by working it's way into your muscle memory spamming, you don't have to think about building probes anymore. It frees up valuable brain power to think about other things. Sure, it's not a huge deal in the early game to think about building a probe - but once you're working off 3-4 bases, 8 gateways and 4 robo bays - the spamming that you're doing is anything but useless. It's doing menial tasks for you so you don't spend all your time remembering to build probes, pylons, or w/e. You need to be able to multi-task.
Spamming isn't about doing useless actions to make yourself look gosu, it's about adding tasks to your personnal auto-pilot so you have more brain power for micro, decisions, and multi-tasking.
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I unashamedly spam my buildings. Sure, my average apm goes from like 300 something in the beginning of the game to 150-170 by the end of the game, but that spamming is useful in that I use it to keep a constant eye on all of my buildings. In the beginning, there isn't much to watch, but it keeps me warmed up and constantly checking through the game.
So yeah, my EAPM is probably a lot lower, but through spamming I believe that I improve my EAPM as well as just my spammed APM.
EDIT: Basically, what the guy above me said.
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Idunno, I have about 100-110 APM at 1700~ (I know, mid-diamond at best) as Protoss and honestly spamming for 200 would only like, get me to chronoboost an upgrade a second earlier or maybe squeeze out an extra probe or two throughout the game
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On October 28 2010 12:12 Twistacles wrote:
Idunno, I have about 100-110 APM at 1700~ (I know, mid-diamond at best) as Protoss and honestly spamming for 200 would only like, get me to chronoboost an upgrade a second earlier or maybe squeeze out an extra probe or two throughout the game
same boat as you.
siting at between 95 early game and up to 115 max late game. at ~1700 as toss too. Though my multi tasking could definitely be better.
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I feel weird not spamming in early game... It's like I have nothing to do....
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I really don't care about watching my apm in replays or anything. If my multitask is getting better or worse, I can tell on my own, I don't need an apm count to inform me.
That being said, I spam a ton because it's exciting. There's nothing wrong with it, and so I don't see the point of criticizing those who do it. If you have 100 apm and another guy has 300 and you win, neither of your apm's matter.
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On October 28 2010 12:25 0mgVitaminE wrote:
If you have 100 apm and another guy has 300 and you win, neither of your apm's matter.
Agreed. The only reason spamming would be actually bad is if it 1) got in the way of your actual game play or 2) you were using it to just look "cool"
If you aren't spamming for bragging rights, then what does it matter?
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Judging a player by their apm is like judging a plane by it's weight.
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strangely the only time i spam to get my apm going to in early .. it looks really funny while watching the replays because i have about 150ish avg and then it drops to about 78-80 lol.
i play in platinum with about 70-80 and do fine
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On October 28 2010 11:31 Silament wrote:
i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players.
This post pretty much demonstrates why you don't understand how having higher APM can be a benefit. You don't think like a winner. Higher APM than what you have can be beneficial because, even if you peak at 300 or even 400, peaking at 500 can always be a benefit at some point in the game. Higher APM when used properly, also allows more general knowledge of what is going on around the map, because you can be paying attention to more things at once. You might say, "Well I pay attention to just as many things, I just don't SPAM" But if that's what you are thinking, what you are missing is that, after the first 5 minute's of the game, no decent player "SPAMs" they are all doing purposeful actions which you probably wouldn't understand even if you watched them first person, because until you are aware enough of the game to TAKE those actions (even occasionally), you won't be aware enough of an observe to know exactly what each one means.
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I play with 130 apm, I try my best to try to get to 150 but there's too many factors (tiredness mostly) for me to play that consistent.
And also, the stats thing is just fluff. You bought SC2 to play the game, and laddering is fun. So what if you lose to cheese and to worse players. I found myself enjoying sc2 a lot more when i let go of the stats prejudice and just played for fun.
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On October 28 2010 11:52 VonLego wrote:
7 people in the world have that 83.3% win rate you covet. GOOD LUCK!
8 people as of now.
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On October 28 2010 11:25 smoorn wrote:
i feel so bad reading threads like this becouse my apm averages at 90-100, so slow =[
Haha, Im a 1600 diamond player with avg apm 70... Yes I play protoss ^^ 1a2a3a
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Best sign that APM can be useful and can be not useful-- I think we can all beat the AI here, yet I've seen the AI hit between 700-800 APM during battles before. So clearly being able to control every single unit individually is less important than being able to think-- that being said, people who can think and control things quickly will do better
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I think I'm echoing the general sentiment by saying that playing well should be the priority and apm the afterthought. Yes, apm is part of playing well, but it shouldn't be the focus.
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Didn't Idra say he has like 140-150 APM? Certainly seems to be working well enough for him.
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On October 28 2010 11:13 Logo wrote:
At that high APM players are typically doing all the little things that give you like .5% better chance to win in addition to the obvious and big stuff. Slightly adjusting overlord positioning, moving the queen to the best side of the hatchery, constantly checking on upgrades and spawn larva, repositioning units so they're in a better formation when not being used, Moving a scouting unit around to check for expos/proxies/hidden junk, and so on.
At a certain point it's also possible he's bouncing around constantly to different view points to make sure nothing misses his attention.
this is probably the best answer in the thread
even when it looks like nothing is happening, the good players are constantly cycling around the map
when you watch them respond instantly to a sneaky drop, its not because their fingers suddenly became fast, its because they were flying around the map to begin with
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On October 28 2010 11:03 Backpack wrote:
Do you win all of your games?
If you answered no to the previous question then 140-180 avg apm is not enough to win all the time. The better you play, the higher your APM gets. It's not the other way around.
My buddy is in the top 200 consistently and only hits 100+ apm about 10 minutes in, and doesn't really spam at all. He's beaten pretty big names before on ladder as well...
Gretorp
Machine
Moman
Took a game off of Painuser in a tournament match.
etc...
I mean cmon now, apm isn't everything even DAY 9 said you don't need a lot of apm to be good in one of his newbie tuesdays, and it's very true.
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Yeah APM isn't as huge a factor as it was in SC1, but IMHO more effective APM correlates with more awareness, which is gonna help you lose less and be a lot cleaner with your timings.
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I've been being paired against 1400-1500 diamond players recently, and I'm not having a really hard time beating them with my 60-80 apm. (I'm around 800 because I don't 1v1 much). I don't spam.
I kind of agree with the OP. I feel like 150 EAPM is just as good as 300 SAPM and you can accomplish the same things with less fatigue/carpal tunnel.
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On October 28 2010 11:39 zak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:34 scph wrote:On October 28 2010 11:10 Licmyobelisk wrote:
I have a friend that puts CC on ctrl+2 and spams the shit out of ctrl+1 and ctrl+2 like
12121212121212121....
So no, I'd rather be a 140 apm player that has good game sense/decent multitasking than a 300 plus dude who doesn't even multitask but just spams. Someone who can keep up 300 apm throughout the majority of the game is no joke. More than likely you will find that the best players have high APM throughout the entire match. Like the OP says, he may spam to 300 in the early game but it settles down to 140-180. I honestly would rather have 300 apm spamming into the game than topping out at 140. The ability to spam up to that much already proves he can do that many actions even if they're useless. Once you get into the rhythm of spamming, you can multitask a lot more due to your hands and fingers continuously moving. rofl the ABILITY to spam to 300? pushing two buttons rapidly or clicking a thousand times is an ability? Ffs anyone can do that. Yes, it is for warmup and getting into the flow but just because you can spam to 300 does not mean you are good.
Can you keep 300 apm, and macro micro, check up on all your units, all the building processes, etc efficiently throughout the entire match? It IS an ability, any good player will use it. If it wasn't, then we'd see everyone playing at high apm (which is not the case, a majority of players average less than 150apm)? Keeping it up keeps you fast. Yes, if you sit there tapping the keys for no reason it's meaningless, but I never stated you'd be good if you can spam 300. I simply said if you're doing it throughout the entire game (assuming you are playing to win) it's not just meaningless pushing of buttons, and from what I've seen, players who play at high APM consistently play on a higher level than players with lower apm (<150).
I doubt there is any successful pro who plays at 50 apm in the early game (since that is all you really 'need') and then jump to 140 mid game.
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So many people don't understand the purpose of apm...
If a player is said to have an average of 200 apm, then most likely he is capable of spiking to 250-300 apm when necessary - and this is the key; they are able to micro / macro very quickly when necessary. It's true that you don't need high apm to beat a 1500 points Diamond player, but then again, is 1500 points Diamond even good?
When you're just sitting around doing a bunch of nothing, sure you can spam to keep your average apm up, and it won't make a difference in gameplay... but when a huge battle occurs, the player that can micro and macro and pay attention to a bunch of different places at once will come out on top.
On October 28 2010 13:38 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:03 Backpack wrote:
Do you win all of your games?
If you answered no to the previous question then 140-180 avg apm is not enough to win all the time. The better you play, the higher your APM gets. It's not the other way around. My buddy is in the top 200 consistently and only hits 100+ apm about 10 minutes in, and doesn't really spam at all. He's beaten pretty big names before on ladder as well... Gretorp Machine Moman Took a game off of Painuser in a tournament match. etc... I mean cmon now, apm isn't everything even DAY 9 said you don't need a lot of apm to be good in one of his newbie tuesdays, and it's very true.
- Taking a game off a big-name player means nothing. If your friend is top 10 in the ladder and consistently wins tourneys, get back to us on that.
- It is absolutely true that apm isn't necessary to be a good/decent player, but the capability to have high apm is an invaluable asset nonetheless. You might not need it to win games, but chances are, when you start playing really good players you will find yourself in situations where higher apm would have made all the difference.
Again, APM is one of several indicators of skill - it is not the only one, but it shows one's level of mouse control and capability to micro/macro in tight situations.
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I understand there's nothing wrong with low/medium apm...but heck...there's also nothing wrong with high apm. So what's the big deal?
Whatever floats your boat man...
Only thing is...TOO low IS a problem but that's another discussion.
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On October 28 2010 13:56 synapse wrote:So many people don't understand the purpose of apm... If a player is said to have an average of 200 apm, then most likely he is capable of spiking to 250-300 apm when necessary - and this is the key; they are able to micro / macro very quickly when necessary. It's true that you don't need high apm to beat a 1500 points Diamond player, but then again, is 1500 points Diamond even good? When you're just sitting around doing a bunch of nothing, sure you can spam to keep your average apm up, and it won't make a difference in gameplay... but when a huge battle occurs, the player that can micro and macro and pay attention to a bunch of different places at once will come out on top. Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 13:38 Aberu wrote:On October 28 2010 11:03 Backpack wrote:
Do you win all of your games?
If you answered no to the previous question then 140-180 avg apm is not enough to win all the time. The better you play, the higher your APM gets. It's not the other way around. My buddy is in the top 200 consistently and only hits 100+ apm about 10 minutes in, and doesn't really spam at all. He's beaten pretty big names before on ladder as well... Gretorp Machine Moman Took a game off of Painuser in a tournament match. etc... I mean cmon now, apm isn't everything even DAY 9 said you don't need a lot of apm to be good in one of his newbie tuesdays, and it's very true. - Taking a game off a big-name player means nothing. If your friend is top 10 in the ladder and consistently wins tourneys, get back to us on that. - It is absolutely true that apm isn't necessary to be a good/decent player, but the capability to have high apm is an invaluable asset nonetheless. You might not need it to win games, but chances are, when you start playing really good players you will find yourself in situations where higher apm would have made all the difference. Again, APM is one of several indicators of skill - it is not the only one, but it shows one's level of mouse control and capability to micro/macro in tight situations.
Well that was a rather selective reply wasn't it? You completely ignored the reference to Day[9] mentioning that apm doesn't really need to be that high. The fact is that someone that plays in 300 SC2 apm land is playing at around 400 BW apm land. Do you know anyone that ACTUALLY utilizes all 400 APM in BW? Didn't think so. That includes clicking multiple times to move the same group of units, constantly switching between units needlessly being thrown out.
Not saying that spam or apm is the sign of a bad player or anything, just it's not what people should focus on to get better.
To the OP, if you really want to get better, clicking buttons quickly is not what you should be worried about. Scouting, macro, micro, unit positioning, overall unit control, timing (relative to the player and how they are playing, not arbitrary supply numbers), those are much more important than APM. Now if you get great at all of those things, quite a bit of APM comes with it, but that doesn't mean there is much purpose other than warming up, to having 400 apm throughout a whole game, or having 400 apm at the start of a match.
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"i can do everything I need with 10 apm"
until you play someone with bisu's multitask...:D
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you're really not supposed to go 100-20
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When i watch replays from high-APM progamers and mid-diamond replays i find that the main source for the APM is not spamming, it's constant aggression. There are more drops, more aggressive moves and army positioning to force the enemy to respond, more zergling/baneling/hellion runbys, multi-pronged attacks, etc
More aggression means that there is more to do, which means you need more APM.
If your APM is low you might just be too defensive and passive.
On another note:
Beating training partners means nothing since they usually play fair and often don't do all that nasty harass, neither ladder players nor tournament players play fair (For example TLO lost to a cheese in the GSL because he wasn't prepared for that from his training)
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you can have 2000 apm and do absolutely nothing or have 80 apm and do everything right and beat a 200-300 apm high level player. I'd worry less about apm and more about what you can do to improve yourself mechanically and tactically
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APM threads always come up once in a while. Generally, the idea is: All your APM should be for useful actions, you can always have more useful actions, so you can always have more APM, but you shouldn't focus too much on it.
The spam stuff is actually supposed to help you with your micro. "4-5-6" spam and stuff like that is to check your hatcheries and unit production facilities, all that fun stuff.
Mostly: don't worry about it. Just play more and it'll go up naturally.
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On October 28 2010 11:31 Silament wrote:
i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players.
You do not seem like the type who is fit for ladder. If you don't like losing so much, just stick to custom games especially if you hate cheese. Trust me the mentality of "not wanting to lose" will seriously affect your gameplay and you may very well go on losing streaks.
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I gotta say I am at about 70 average APM and damn proud of it! I play zerg and constantly am forgetting my creep tumors and larvae injects. I effectively have no micro and I especially cant macro while doing anything with my units at all. I'm still surprised haw much you don't really need to worry about much at the 1500 diamondish level. Anyways as for the OP, if you don't want a loss on your account then I definitely gotta say never ever ladder again. I don't care who you are your gonna lose on the ladder to something eventually.
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Just get on the ladder and start playing games. You will find things to do with your APM when you go "shit, I should've dadada".
And please when you get to 2000 diamond, then say you're a 2000 diamond. Until then, you're still whatever the ladder says you are. We all like to judge how we are without having to actually show it, but just be true to yourself. What your "potential" is isn't actually quantifiable, so why not just pown some noobs to show yourself how good you really are? Seriously, if you beat some high diamonds, you should not be scared of the ladder. Just go do it.
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On October 28 2010 11:25 toadstool wrote:
Can I ask you why you haven't started ladder yet, when you can 'roll' 1,500 diamond players?
Was about to ask the same thing =)
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effective apm is better measure. but apm won't win you game. personally i think its sad those who overclick up to 300+ apm in early game just to get apm high. even if you were warming up, there's no reason for it to be that high.
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APM Means really nothing, i wouldnt even care about it on your place.
Just now beated a guy, watched replay he had 200APM while i had mine 60-70. Really, it doesnt matter.
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No you don't need 300 apm. Look at White-Ra if you want to see a pro player who wins without such apm.
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hi, i´ve got a 30 cm penis. but i feel like its way too small, how can i enlarge it? 
sorry, but i dont see the point in artificially increasing the apm when u already have a very decent apm and urself feel like u can handle everything u need to with it.
when u encounter a situation where ur apm feels lacking, then u might think about ways to increase it. if u dont, i wouldnt even waste a thought about it anymore.
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On October 28 2010 17:18 Black Gun wrote:hi, i´ve got a 30 cm penis. but i feel like its way too small, how can i enlarge it? sorry, but i dont see the point in artificially increasing the apm when u already have a very decent apm and urself feel like u can handle everything u need to with it. when u encounter a situation where ur apm feels lacking, then u might think about ways to increase it. if u dont, i wouldnt even waste a thought about it anymore.
do you think... wow if I had a larger penis I would have the opportunity to execute strategy a, b, and c? I think not...
Btw your an idiot.
The apm increase is not "spam"... after game opening do you find yourself with free time to sit there and press your nexus hotkey/select probes multiple times? no.
it's from multitasking. If you want a lesson, request one of the progamers who's replays you watch with 300+ for help. Or watch their first person view like the rest of the world and try to pay attention to their selections.
GL with your travels...
ps.
yes, I do think your emoticon of a head banging on a brick wall is you making a correlation of a [blank] post, and a [blank] way to resolve it.
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Losing isn't the opposite of winning, it's the absence of winning...
If you want to win games, go win games. If you aren't good enough to beat 2000 diamonds, well... worse things can happen. And if you're worried about your APM, save it until you've played some games. If low APM is costing you too much time macroing, making it hard for you to manage battles, or getting in the way of your multitasking, then you can start worrying about it. Otherwise, just play games -- that's the whole point anyways.
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The match making system is trying its hardest to get you to win only 50% of your games. As another guy has posted. Grow some balls and play the game.
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On October 28 2010 16:37 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:25 toadstool wrote:
Can I ask you why you haven't started ladder yet, when you can 'roll' 1,500 diamond players? Was about to ask the same thing =)
^^^
this just seems like a ego boosting thread to me. "hi im really really good and fast and can beat very good players but i just dont want to. so should i try and be faster??"
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I never really understood all the fuss about spamming, warming up and ridiculously high apm
I start with 20 apm till I build first building, than transition into 40 till I scout him, than some multitasking kicks in (scouting, harasing, organizing for attack/exp/defense) and it's 70-120 till actual fight happens (than I peak cca 150-180 but only for little time)... in 15 min long game it makes my average apm 90ish
If I spam (which I used to do when I'm nervous) apm is 300+ and I make a lot of mistakes usually because of it : ) instead of working I'm spamming... but at the end of game I feel good because I can insult my opponent for having lower apm and still winning
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I always find it funny when people APM spam only for it to drop down below that in game.
Since when was "warm up" harder than the actual practice? Lol. It just makes it look like you're trying way too hard to show off.
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Don't start laddering. Your world view will be shattered as you realise you're nowhere near high diamond level because to get there you're going to have to learn to deal with a large variety of cheese and other strategies designed to get a quick win vs someone who doesn't know your style. If I play custom I'm mostly messing around with stupid strategies and not paying close attention to the game as I would in ladder.
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Your APM should be high enough to do everything you want to do, when you want to do it.
That's it.
I like spamming because stops me from overthinking and keeps me focused on my mental checklist of things I need to be doing.
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On October 28 2010 17:54 SovSov wrote:
I always find it funny when people APM spam only for it to drop down below that in game.
Since when was "warm up" harder than the actual practice? Lol. It just makes it look like you're trying way too hard to show off.
More downtime = more time to spam. There's literally nothing do in the first minute or two. If you only did the required actions, you would probably have 5 APM in the first two minutes.
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On October 28 2010 17:36 zTz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 17:18 Black Gun wrote:hi, i´ve got a 30 cm penis. but i feel like its way too small, how can i enlarge it? sorry, but i dont see the point in artificially increasing the apm when u already have a very decent apm and urself feel like u can handle everything u need to with it. when u encounter a situation where ur apm feels lacking, then u might think about ways to increase it. if u dont, i wouldnt even waste a thought about it anymore. do you think... wow if I had a larger penis I would have the opportunity to execute strategy a, b, and c? I think not... Btw your an idiot. The apm increase is not "spam"... after game opening do you find yourself with free time to sit there and press your nexus hotkey/select probes multiple times? no. it's from multitasking. If you want a lesson, request one of the progamers who's replays you watch with 300+ for help. Or watch their first person view like the rest of the world and try to pay attention to their selections. GL with your travels... ps. yes, I do think your emoticon of a head banging on a brick wall is you making a correlation of a [blank] post, and a [blank] way to resolve it.
wow, some people dont even recognize sarcasm when it bites them in the ass.....
the TS says he has an average apm of close to 200 in long games, which is plenty for sc2 on any non-professional level. then he says he never feels constrained by his apm and that he can beat 1.5k diamond players all the time, and then he asks if he should increase his apm even more? this sounds like a bragging thread to me. and yes, imho all this focus on apm is just some sort of guys trying to enlarge their e-penis. but it seems like u are from the same school of thought.
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On October 28 2010 18:05 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 17:54 SovSov wrote:
I always find it funny when people APM spam only for it to drop down below that in game.
Since when was "warm up" harder than the actual practice? Lol. It just makes it look like you're trying way too hard to show off. More downtime = more time to spam. There's literally nothing do in the first minute or two. If you only did the required actions, you would probably have 5 APM in the first two minutes.
Nah that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when people go from 300 "warm up" APM in the first 5 minutes then drop to like 60 during the game.
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I check the SC2 streams sometimes, mostly diamond players, and many players seem to move any unit by clicking 3-4 times in practically the same small area (1-2 pixels apart). Isn't that a big waste of APM?
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On October 28 2010 18:27 quasit wrote:
I check the SC2 streams sometimes, mostly diamond players, and many players seem to move any unit by clicking 3-4 times in practically the same small area (1-2 pixels apart). Isn't that a big waste of APM?
In those 300 milliseconds, what else would you be doing?
Also, issuing multiple commands ensures that it's actually done.
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On October 28 2010 18:26 SovSov wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:05 kojinshugi wrote:On October 28 2010 17:54 SovSov wrote:
I always find it funny when people APM spam only for it to drop down below that in game.
Since when was "warm up" harder than the actual practice? Lol. It just makes it look like you're trying way too hard to show off. More downtime = more time to spam. There's literally nothing do in the first minute or two. If you only did the required actions, you would probably have 5 APM in the first two minutes. Nah that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when people go from 300 "warm up" APM in the first 5 minutes then drop to like 60 during the game.
That's exactly what you're talking about.
My point was that they spam because they've got nothing else to do, not because they're trying to show off.
300 APM is literally "right click minerals".
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On October 28 2010 18:27 quasit wrote:
I check the SC2 streams sometimes, mostly diamond players, and many players seem to move any unit by clicking 3-4 times in practically the same small area (1-2 pixels apart). Isn't that a big waste of APM?
if they got nothing better to do with their apm during those seconds, then its no waste.
oh, and issueing move commands all the time has a very very minor positive effect: after u have selected the unit, some time goes by till ur mouse hits the location to which u want to send the unit. if u only give one precise move command to this location, the unit will wait before starting to move for exactly as long as it takes for u to move the mouse to the desired location. if u issue several move commands during the time u move the mouse there, the unit starts moving slightly earlier.
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I have a friend who's 1500 diamond with 45-60 APM average.
Axslav has like 60-90 apm and he's really high rated as well.
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it's probably just a coincidence that his skill level and his apm are extremely high. I'm sure there are 'better' players or players at the same skill level as he is with lower apm. No, you do not need 200+ apm to be a top tier/the best player in sc2, simply because 200 apm in sc2 = to 270-280 in bw. Most bw pros top out at around that apm... so if they dont need 300+ to be the best, certainly you don't need more than that to be the best in sc2.
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On October 28 2010 11:03 Backpack wrote:
The better you play, the higher your APM gets. It's not the other way around.
This is the truth.
Too many people are striving to increase their APM. Strive to increase your skills and the APM will come with it.
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On October 28 2010 10:58 Silament wrote:
So, i understand the point and value to spamming your APM at the early part of the game to warm your hands/fingers and thinking up. Im only a 5-0 Platinum zerg because i havnt felt ready to Ladder, but i can, for the most part roll over 1400-1500 Diamonds in custom games, random and practices. during the early stage, my APM Avg. is between 200-280 depending on the type of match and how much i care to win.
Sr for an off-topic and noob question, what is different ladder and league in SC2, how do i play in ladder??
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apm spam is important
sc1 pros all had 300-400 apm (exept savior early days but after that yeah) and people still sayd that apm is pointless, even the pros spam, but since they are pros one shouldnt question their apm and need for spam.
i see very similar thing in sc2, most highest lvl people have around 200 apm (260 real apm) so yeah arguing about it its pointless imo
EDIT: low lvl players(like up to 2k diamond) overestimate APM, but same players understimate APM at highest lvl of play
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spam is the most important factor in apm, if you didnt spam you wouldnt know how to micro or mine minerals, the truth is that spam is more important than skill, skill comes when you get 300 apm, if you dont have 300 apm then you cant be skillfull
now i hate these threads, its weird. everyones right and everyones wrong, but truthfully... IM RIGHT! MWAHAHAH
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Wow, after reading Fazes post on apm spamming i may start try integrate spamming into my game.
My apm in most games goes from an average of 50 to an average of 100 in nearly every game and during games it slowly rises bit by bit.
tbh i though before that apm spamming was a waste of time, and i used to never spam so i could judge myself on my EAPM. I still also think that apm should not be used to show a players skill, and other factors like multitasking/game sense and decisions should be used instead.
Edit: whoops forget to add why i think that way. I think high apm doesnt show players true skill because spamming buttons over and over, no matter how fast, does not use take "skill" or brain power, and so does not show how good they are at playing the game.
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here ill post normally for one sec. i have 0 apm, now im hitting 44-rax making mass marines/marauders, microing 3 hellions behind zerg smineral lines, oh look i have 145 apm. there u go. close thread.
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if you cant even spam 300 apm, there is no way you can get 300 usable apm, not that you need 300 apm, in fact most SC2 players APM seems to be around 150-200 / which is like 175-240 real apm (SC2 time scale is a bit faster than Realtime reducing apm for those who dont know) Even with 75-100 apm you will be fine for 90% of SC2 gaming, unless you intend to win the GSL :D Most high level players have high apms, causation correlation whatever! they go hand in hand :D
If your hands are so slow that even mindless spamming doesnt hit 200, do you think because you have more things to do later in the game you can hit 200 apm?
People Spam at the beginning, to just warm up, loosen up. Pro's are able to translate nearly all of that spam into usable able late game.
While others like myself, spam early game, then drop off, as we cant maintain focus, or think fast enough to require that much apm.
Spamming for apm is like anyone other skill, spamming is the easy beginners version, training wheels, peace and quiet to focus on doing _____.
Pro's do, do some unnecessary clicking, moving a unit to one spot twice, re-rallying to another mineral patch and so on. However i think its somewhat necessary to simple keep that flow of high activity up so that when you need to expand, while pushing, while fending off a drop you have the capacity to. And yes If someone has 150 apm, vs someone else with 250(minimal spamming) they ARE doing that much more. Losing 1 less unit then you in every skirmish, while macroing just a little better than you, always being in a slightly better position, reaction just a bit faster than you. All pointing towards a higher chance of success.
APM is not the end all, with a good strategic mind you can of course beat someone with more APM. If your gaming skill/sense is about the same, the greater APM will usually edge out, especially as the game draws on.
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On October 28 2010 11:31 Silament wrote:
i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players.
Your reasoning is like living life and never taking a risk or stepping out of your comfort zone. You won't get anywhere. I lost my last 12 out of 13 ladder games and lost over 150 points from 1750 down to 1600. Sure, it made me mad but I'm probably going to be a better player because of it. You can't know how to beat cheesy play without losing to it once or twice. It seems like EVERYONE is just playing cheesy and doing these stupid hellion/banshee play or proxy 2-gate or speedling/baneling all-in nowadays. I'd rather lose to this shit all day than to stoop to that level because I'll never learn how to play macro-economically. What fun is it to do gimmicky builds all the way up to 2000 (this is very possible, btw)? I will lose with too many drones any day before I lose making too many units to defend. Sure, they might win now, but once I learn how to defend all of this bullshit gimmicky play, I will be far superior to them because they don't know how to play off of 2 bases.
Also, it's not a permenant loss. Records will be reset probably pretty soon and you will regret not laddering and learning once the new season comes along.
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I'm not sure how many top level players have ~100 apm. Though at the same time, everyone may feel peer pressured to spam else look like a scrub.
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On October 28 2010 11:31 Silament wrote:
i did and won my 5 placements, but i dont know, personal wall for me kind of, even tho everyone i play with tells me im ready and that i should just start, the idea of losing even once to a bad player over a stupid cheese or some other crap they got lucky to pull off, and living with a permanent loss on my account keeps me from it, in SC: you could have practice accounts where you dont care about your W/L, SC2, you only get 1 account, 1 W/L record, and because unfortunately im a bit of a perfectionist, i wanna be sure i can win when the MMR pits me against 2000+ point players.
You'll never get better with an attitude like that.
Anyway, the moral of the story is that APM DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. If you're fast enough to do everything you want to do, then that's that. (Doing 5 drops at the same time isn't necessarily always a good thing, either.)
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APM Doesn't matter im a 1900 toss with about 70 apm, Also your playing 2k diamonds on Custom maps, I personally play custom maps or 3v3's when i want to try some crazy new strategy or im playing an off race to practice.
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On October 28 2010 14:19 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 13:56 synapse wrote:So many people don't understand the purpose of apm... If a player is said to have an average of 200 apm, then most likely he is capable of spiking to 250-300 apm when necessary - and this is the key; they are able to micro / macro very quickly when necessary. It's true that you don't need high apm to beat a 1500 points Diamond player, but then again, is 1500 points Diamond even good? When you're just sitting around doing a bunch of nothing, sure you can spam to keep your average apm up, and it won't make a difference in gameplay... but when a huge battle occurs, the player that can micro and macro and pay attention to a bunch of different places at once will come out on top. On October 28 2010 13:38 Aberu wrote:On October 28 2010 11:03 Backpack wrote:
Do you win all of your games?
If you answered no to the previous question then 140-180 avg apm is not enough to win all the time. The better you play, the higher your APM gets. It's not the other way around. My buddy is in the top 200 consistently and only hits 100+ apm about 10 minutes in, and doesn't really spam at all. He's beaten pretty big names before on ladder as well... Gretorp Machine Moman Took a game off of Painuser in a tournament match. etc... I mean cmon now, apm isn't everything even DAY 9 said you don't need a lot of apm to be good in one of his newbie tuesdays, and it's very true. - Taking a game off a big-name player means nothing. If your friend is top 10 in the ladder and consistently wins tourneys, get back to us on that. - It is absolutely true that apm isn't necessary to be a good/decent player, but the capability to have high apm is an invaluable asset nonetheless. You might not need it to win games, but chances are, when you start playing really good players you will find yourself in situations where higher apm would have made all the difference. Again, APM is one of several indicators of skill - it is not the only one, but it shows one's level of mouse control and capability to micro/macro in tight situations. Well that was a rather selective reply wasn't it? You completely ignored the reference to Day[9] mentioning that apm doesn't really need to be that high. The fact is that someone that plays in 300 SC2 apm land is playing at around 400 BW apm land. Do you know anyone that ACTUALLY utilizes all 400 APM in BW? Didn't think so. That includes clicking multiple times to move the same group of units, constantly switching between units needlessly being thrown out. Not saying that spam or apm is the sign of a bad player or anything, just it's not what people should focus on to get better. To the OP, if you really want to get better, clicking buttons quickly is not what you should be worried about. Scouting, macro, micro, unit positioning, overall unit control, timing (relative to the player and how they are playing, not arbitrary supply numbers), those are much more important than APM. Now if you get great at all of those things, quite a bit of APM comes with it, but that doesn't mean there is much purpose other than warming up, to having 400 apm throughout a whole game, or having 400 apm at the start of a match.
First, my "It is absolutely true that apm isn't necessary to be a good/decent player" was in response to the Day[9] quote. Day[9] is not the only one to say it, and just because I didn't explicitly include Day[9]'s name doesn't mean I'm not replying to that statement when they are clearly on the same topic of "not needing very high APM."
Second, all of the current BW progamers have average APM's of around 250-300, with spikes to 400. Progamers use 400 APM. Jaedong spikes to 500, 600. It's hard to even spam to APM that high, do you really think progamers are spamming during critical moments of micro in battle? You're just assuming that people can't utilize high APM.
No one has said that you need a good APM to be a good player, and nobody has told anyone else to increase their APM rather than improve their gameplay. APM is a measure of "how fast you can do stuff," which is incredibly important at certain points in certain games - that's all that's being said here.
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