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279 Posts
On October 18 2010 09:05 [p]Drake wrote:
MLG_Lee you guys are doing excellent work. I have been to a few events over the years and I know how MLG has evolved to be an impressive Esports venue.
Can you please comment on the issues with crowd interactions that happened during this tournament? Every live tournament in Korea has booths and/or noise canceling headphones. I believe that would add a large level of professionalism to the SC2 event.
Keep up the good work!
Good question. We're not doing booths. They'd get wrecked travelling and they don't really work anyways. It's still being actively debated on the best way to handle it so I'm not going to comment on what we're thinking right now, but I will say that we do monitor what you guys say here and speak at length with other organizations on what works and doesn't.
P.S. Thanks. We do try. :D
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Yeah, the integrity of the tournament is definitely at stake without booths. If the players can hear the crowd the game should be stopped immediately and resumed when that issue is taken care of.
Need to do something, maybe have them play in another room or something.
Booths do work btw, sound proof booths prevent all sound and are the standard for sc tournaments that are held offline in a professional environment.
Not saying you have to do booths, but you'll need to do something because the state of the game with Huk was laughable.
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On October 18 2010 08:24 MLG_Lee wrote:
re: extended series/bo7. we'll get an article published laying out how it works precisely. In fact, I think JP posted on how it works when we announced the addition of SC2 to the circuit. But it's here to stay. And as an old PC LAN veteran, I'll say that I think its the fairest thing possible. We can debate the absolute value of "fair" sometime, but it is a system that MLG uses on EVERY game. Will you also explain why it's good for it to suddenly become a disadvantage to the WB player in the grand finals? I mean good competitively, not good for hype and spectators. Why is it good for the WB player to get punished for meeting in the finals someone he or she earlier sent to LB? (Edit: By punished I mean have less of an advantage than he or she would have if facing the LB player for the first time.)
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Still no way for the casters to view multiple games. It would be awesome if you could get a few of the games going on at the time of casting to all have a spectator client in them, and then switch between games (even if they are already in progress, they're still entertaining to catch). This is really important in the earlier rounds where less important games are going on (obviously you wouldn't want to switch from an insane matchup or later stage game like a quarter finals)
OGN and MBC game, the Korean TV channels, use this system for their offline preliminaries, and it works quite well to catch some games.
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1. It would obviously be great if the event started on time, but I think you guys stayed later so that we would get the same amount of games. that was greatly appreciated.
2. I know it's tricky to show matches during breaks but it would be nice to maybe watch a replay or something during the extended breaks. I mean it was great to see the crowd a little bit but it got a little boring.
3. More Freudian slips by JP lol
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As an online viewer, I can only ask for more of the same please!
Day one needs a tighter casting schedule as it suffered from long waits once it kicked off. The same, however can be said of most live streams of early tournament stages. To help this I would love to see more pre recorded segments and floor interviews to fill in what time does exist between games! Day two was tight and extremely enjoyable as we saw every game from the semis onwards. It was a great build up and would have presented well on TV. I hope in future events the casters and those being casted can be allocated an amount of stage space by the crowd and that big screen I saw in the YouTube videos, to add to the sense of occasion.
Two big thumbs up and looking forward to Dallas =)
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Day9 and DJ wheat FTW!! I would also like to suggest you try out Chill as a caster, his commentaries are very entertaining!
I would like to see the players in sound booths, playing in front of the crowd. I don't want any fiasco's like we saw in some other tournaments, to mar your orginizations clean track record or the players who work hard to win
If your going to cram that many games into 2 days it would be nice if you could have a secondary stream or something, so many good matches I would have liked to see!
Also, you should give your site a more user friendly starcraft 2 section. With all the tips,vods,interviews, replays ect. On 1 easy to navigate page.
You should also prep up some pro techniqe demonstration clips (like how to kite with MM or how to properly defend a 6 pool for exampl) for those wierd times when you need something to put up on the screen, before or after a commercial perhaps or while your waiting for players to be ready for a match. I'm sure if you asked some of the pro's if they want to film a short 3 minute clip for the mlg stream they'd say okay. (Day9 could do it....) There were a lot of waiting times last weekend that a few of these clips would have been very handy for.
All and all though the whole thing was very entertaining, and no onther tournament touches MLG in how easy it is to watch, and how professional the whole production is.
Not trying to be demanding but you asked for feedback, hope this helps.
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On October 18 2010 09:19 Tump wrote:
Still no way for the casters to view multiple games. It would be awesome if you could get a few of the games going on at the time of casting to all have a spectator client in them, and then switch between games (even if they are already in progress, they're still entertaining to catch). This is really important in the earlier rounds where less important games are going on (obviously you wouldn't want to switch from an insane matchup or later stage game like a quarter finals)
OGN and MBC game, the Korean TV channels, use this system for their offline preliminaries, and it works quite well to catch some games.
Most of the areas of him improvement have been beaten to death in this thread so far except this one, I think.
Having the set-up mentioned here by Trump would be excellent. The little updates on the side of the stream page saying how slush and select had an ABSOLUTELY EPIC 2-1 series or how Select has UNGODLY APM in game x of series y did little relax my displeasure at not being able to watch it, despite huge amounts of downtime and long commercial breaks.
Overall, the event was excellent and I was very much satisfied by the end. However I feel it could have been much better if I would have been able to see some major engagements of other matches instead of pre-recorded interviews that could be posted elsewhere or repeated map previews with analysis that is so obvious there is really no point having it in the first place. Felt like there was too much hype in some areas at the cost of actual action/game footage, considering how many games were being played.
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Another thing I just remembered, I don't know if someone else pointed it out;
On the stream, the in-game sounds didn't come from the observers computer, I'm guessing it was from the secondaries-computer since JP was saying something about something and you could hear the sounds from that (pylon warping in, life for aiur, zealot hitting a zergling) while day9(or, the observers computer) was watching something different.
it annoyed me a few times, and its a really easy fix I'm guessing :p
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I forgot to writing something actually positive.
The production overall was better. Great, great job.
Day9, DJ Wheat, and JP were great casters. I liked the jackets, but I thought the collared shirts were a little much ... not to say they should be Miami Vicing it. I think just dressing "clean" -- like you have your shit together and you have reasonable taste -- is enough. But it's great to see the community making an effort to be "professional".
Can you run interviews or highlights in-between games or when there's a break in action? There's a lot more opportunity for prerecorded material. Although I'd rather hear Day9 explain a map then some mystery lady.
Again, I think cramming all that gaming was anti-climatic. And I don't think it's beneficial to the players, tournament, or sponsors. If you had the semi's and finals on a separate day, you could have so much more programming, fanfare and AD REVENUE leading up to the semi-finals. Predictions from other players, highlights, the whole-shebang. It should be like a Superbowl pre-game show.
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I watched every game of Raleigh and D.C on the stream and found that the double elim format is TERRIBLE. At no point after the first round could I follow the bracket with any real certainty. The double elim format has to go ASAP. A group play format (thru the first 1 or 2 rounds) is better at weeding out bad players early while still being easy to follow.
Bracket updates (shown on the stream) after every broadcasted match would help people follow the tourny, especially when tuning in late.
On October 18 2010 08:24 MLG_Lee wrote:
re: extended series/bo7. we'll get an article published laying out how it works precisely. In fact, I think JP posted on how it works when we announced the addition of SC2 to the circuit. But it's here to stay. And as an old PC LAN veteran, I'll say that I think its the fairest thing possible. We can debate the absolute value of "fair" sometime, but it is a system that MLG uses on EVERY game.
The fact that all MLG games us a double elim format isn't justification that SC2 should work like that. Early round group stages and single elim Bo3 are what works (and has for the last 10 years) for SC. The current MLG tourney structure for SC2 is a failure for spectators. If there aren't some drastic changes for the 2011 circuit I will have no reason to watch.
Not to just shit on MLG for the tourney structure and less than stellar event coverage, I do like quite a few things.
Great production vaules. Second only to GOM
Best looking free stream (at least for day two)
Great casting. Day9 & djWHEAT FTW.
Awsome crowd. tahts halo. dont worry
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As a sparse spectator (I was busy this weekend and couldn't watch much or attend the event):
1) The online bracket display was awesome! Wish it would show more of the loser bracket however so I could see the earlier rounds of who knocked whom out of the tournament.
2) The ability to download reps right away was AWESOME. I could see the games I missed and things that weren't cast right away.
3) Increased stream quality meant that not having the HD broadcast (I wasn't home enough to purchase it) was very worth it for the games I could see.
Huge improvement from the first event and I can't wait to see things keep getting better. There were some GREAT games in this tourney, a great run by SeleCt, and a great crowd that really supported the players. You could hear the crowd on the stream and it just made games that much more epic. As always, I think JP and Day9 are your best casters. Their chemistry is through the roof. DJ Wheat is great too, but JP and Day9 are just the best of the best at the moment. Amazing work together by those two.
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Okay My feedback from being there in person also you know the seating and halo-gate issues so I'll not address them.:
The Format: While Double elimination is confusing, Being at the event in person at least the little group I was with REALLY into the Painuser storyline, the way he dropped in round one, and then battled as hard as he could though competition like White-Ra for what was it Day 9 said something like a billion rounds or something? I have no idea how this is going to go forward, I think DE itself has pros and cons for streams vs live. Live the Pro is that it creates buzz. to see Pain user pumping his fist in the air after beating white-ra was awesome. the con is no live brackets, so .. no-one really knows what is happening. oh and the extedned series.. has got to go. Also Bo5 Winners games and Bo7 finals, Please!!!
The casting: Amazing, This set up was brilliant. with wheat and day9 bringing the pain at the announce booth, and then jp rocking the mic on the show floor was great. I'd say that you have struck a great balance, keep it up. my one beef with the casting was not with the casters but the tech, that I will get to later.
The non sc2 on site experience Was really tough. I love Dr pepper, and free Dr Pepper I love even more, However the ability to drink WATER would have been a life saver, if I had not snuck some chocolate milk in for Day9, and myself some water I think I would have been less happy also Food, I was lucky to have a bag that I could sneak things in with but some were not so much, and yes, free hot pockets and doritos are all well and good, but the line for hot pockets took someone near us 30 minutes to get through (and they missed the whole idra/HuK series) just some other stuff. I know these guys are your sponsors, and it is hard, but is there not SOME way to change it up a little?
Technical "Show the Game" chants aside..there were tech issues all weekend for the live crowd, there was exactly a 5ftx5ft square in the middle of the spec area that you could clearly hear the casters, outside that it sounded like adults from charlie brown.
One thing that REALLY impressed me, that I hope is something that does not go away was the availability of the players to the fans, I mean I was able to walk up to HuK before the first round and just talk to him, and he was totally amazing. I know the ATTITUDE of the players is not something that MLG can control, but I hope you don't sequester the players or casters away at any time. You, Sean and wheat were amazing. brilliant, gracious people and for that I thank you.
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can we please get day 9 a haircut and maybe some new glasses for the next cast? i mean, i'm the biggest plott fanboy but he always looks like he just woke up or like his 9th grade yearbook photo.
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Feedback as a player:
You guys should really save the replays immediately after player's matches are finished or something. I asked ref if you guys were gonna save the replays and if i could ninja some off (awesome ref  i think you are on TL somewhere lol) and then i stupidly decided i'd "follow the rules" and not ninja the reps of me n lzgamer off comp...and well whadda ya know? Those replays I do not happen to see on the MLG brackets...-_- I want em 
So maybe pay extra care to save all of the event replays. From every round...not just the known names as well. I guess I'm semi-known, but it's still nice to be able to come home and see all the games from every player in the event, of every round just as a courtesy to the players please  !
Feedback as spectator:
it was great to watch, day9 is awesome, djwheat is awesome, and they flow well together. Sometimes it's really hard to hear though because the volume was varying so much on the speakers...
oh and you should get sound proof booths, especially for the finals.
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As a spectator, the event was overall fun. There were only a few problems
1.) Audio. Whenever something would first start, you would get 30-70 seconds of silence.
2.) Speakers. In the loud convention center, people like me who have meh hearing have issues if you're not under the speaker. Maybe multiple speakers?
Like I said, overall great event. The free doritos were great. The Dr. Pepper wasn't that great, since I don't like soda myself. It would have been nice if there were somewhere I could get some water nearer to the event.
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I think the current format needs some work. On one hand I love that all the matches happen within almost one day, on the other I think it's a result of MLG trying to fit SC2 into a format that works for their other games, rather than trying to adapt their format to work for SC2. I think back to other competitions where players step out of their booths after playing a series against one other pro, players that have practiced specificly for that one match for 12 hours a day, and they end it drenched in sweat and mentally exhausted. Given I'm talking about broodwar but SC2 is comparible in the way that it taxes you a lot more than mass gaming something like Halo. I don't think this format will work in the long term.
At the same time it's a format that rewards stamina more than other competitions that center around SC2. The players making it far like Select and Huk are well known for being mass gamers on ladder and generally maintain a higher score. Nony also recently went nuts on ladder from what I understand. In the end decision making suffered, Nony lost with pheonixes due to fatigue, Huk was wiped enough to toss a mothership at select and hope for the best, and Select showed obvious signs of fatigue in the finals. but all of them faired better than the other players. It reminds me more of an eating contest than a starcraft competition, but Idra got to rest comfortably until the finals. I don't see the loser's bracket player ever winning the finals with this format unless he's way better than the other guy. I do like that it all happens within a short time, but that may not work for starcraft.
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10387 Posts
Having the whole entire tournament in two days doesn't work very well imo, games are less special and crisp due to lack of preparation, and the finals being only a Bo3 makes it a lot less epic.
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8751 Posts
On October 18 2010 08:43 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 07:45 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
ps: lots of people get exhausted and play worse. i dont know why select is being singled out. i thought he was playing really well on saturday. it's ridiculous to think that he hit some hard limitation on games right when he had to face idra. more like his tvz is his worst matchup (and his tvp and tvt play very similarly, MMM lololol gg) and idra was the best player at the event This comes off as pretty bitter. Select won more games than you, so he played more games than you. In fact, he had the longest string of games to be played of ANY player. THAT is why we keep referring to him. IdrA could sit back and wait for the true finals, Select fought for hours straight to get there and then got to play a rested player who is ridiculous to begin with. Maybe IdrA is the out and out best player, and if that is the case, it wouldn't matter that SeleCT was tired. But if the two are close in skill level (which I believe they are), being on equal rest means their skill levels get to decide their match, not the length of time one was forced to grind games out.
select had to play so many games because he got knocked into the losers bracket (by me, lol). having to play more games is part of the disadvantage of being in the losers bracket. idra won more games than select in the winners bracket, so that is why select had to play more. tournaments are not about specific series. you should take the competition as a whole. if you want one isolated series that is the best it can be, you have to look to leagues (osl msl tsl gsl) and exhibitions/showmatches. tournaments like mlg have a component of endurance to them. and double elimination tournaments give a second chance to people who lose but it's not supposed to be easy.
if i had to guess, i'd say select and idra had more endurance than any other players at the tournaments. and probably idra had more endurance than anyone. so i dont think the result of the finals should be bothersome to you. it seems likely that idra would have outplayed select if they were both fresh and would have outplayed select if they were both fatigued. if you dont like endurance being a factor, then you should actually be upset that select got as high as 2nd, since i think the best arguments (weak as they are) indicate that part of select's success through the losers bracket was due to him bringing top-notch energetic play to every series when his opponents were undoubtedly faltering. space out every series so that every player is fully rested and i think select has a much harder time getting 2nd. personally, i like that endurance is a factor so im happy to credit select for his excellent performance
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One important criticism that I wanted to bring was on Hype for the FINALS / SEMI-FINALS.
IEM Cologne did this. GSL does this very well. The Superbowl is a prime example of this. OK, so you dont have the budget of the superbowl, nor the GSL, that's fine, there are alternatives to raising the hype for the finals.
MUSIC is one of them. Introduction music. Match highlight videos of each player that made it to the finals / semi-finals. Pre-game interviews. This is a chance for the players to bring some personality to the table and bring more emotions to the matches that you can't have in online tournaments. Raising the money pool is another.
Day9 is amazing to raise the hype/emotion before the match. He tries his best to give credit to both players, makes sure we are uncertain of the outcome and bring the crowd into it, but he can't do it alone. Adding music, quick introduction videos, etc. is vital to keeping people tense and excited about the upcoming games.
In DC, the finals were introduced by a commercial break and it went right into the games... fun, but it didn't give the Finality / Importance that I think, it deserved. The fact that the players were casually chatting / giving excuses about performance during the game contributed also to lowering the tension/cheapening it.
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