On October 15 2010 10:43 kasumimi wrote: I don't want to be a dick but this debate seems meaningless. I found the exact quote from Dustin Browder. Blizzard considers the "hard counter" system much better and I seriously doubt it is ever going to change.
"Q: The damage modifiers have been slowly weeded out through the patches, have you thought about getting rid of them completely? A: StarCraft had a damage system that was similar to ours only it was more complicated and a lot less clear. We are very happy with our damage system as a significant improvement over the original StarCraft and will continue to use it as a balance tool to try to create the best strategy game we can. There are no plans to cut it."
LOL, right, lets take this extremely well balanced game with a proven damage system, and IMPROVE IT!! We'll achieve this by making it LESS COMPLICATED!!!!! Although I have absolutely NO IDEA whether I'm correct or not, I will NOT change my newly created damage system. The only thing I will do is to promise to KEEP BALANCING, needlessly expanding arbitrary +XXX dmg vs XXX to more units until nobody knows what the fuck is going on.
I'm sorry, what? Concussive damage is excessive. It gives a 4x damage bonus against its preferred target relative to its un-preferred target. Nothing in SC2 has that wild a swing in terms of damage. Even the Hellion with Preignighter is only doing 2.4x the damage to preferred targets. The Immortal only does 2.5x damage to preferred targets.
Sorry, but until a unit in SC2 gets 4x damage against a type of unit, calling it "excessive" is simply wrong.
For example: using vultures against dragoons. Dragoons got advantage agains vultures, but with some good spider mine usage you can actually prevent enemy from pwning your ass before you get some tanks out. ( You know, some godly micro play, dropping mines around dragoons and running away and stuff like that )
I'm trying to figure out what this has to do with damage bonuses, but quite simply, it doesn't. The presence or absence of spider mines has nothing to do with damage bonuses.
Theres also some very ridicilous things like tanks only doing 35 damage to light.
Um, Siege Tanks only did 35 damage (70 explosive damage) to normal in SC1. So I guess that was "ridicilous" too.
a lot of posters in this thread seem to be hating on sc2. i don tknow...playing bw for 12 years...i sorta like sc2. the games are different but i don tknow i get a feel of rock paper scissors but its not like i didn't get the same thing in bw it just wasn't like in ages series where counters were almost explicit. am i missing something here?
On October 15 2010 10:43 kasumimi wrote: I don't want to be a dick but this debate seems meaningless. I found the exact quote from Dustin Browder. Blizzard considers the "hard counter" system much better and I seriously doubt it is ever going to change.
"Q: The damage modifiers have been slowly weeded out through the patches, have you thought about getting rid of them completely? A: StarCraft had a damage system that was similar to ours only it was more complicated and a lot less clear. We are very happy with our damage system as a significant improvement over the original StarCraft and will continue to use it as a balance tool to try to create the best strategy game we can. There are no plans to cut it."
LOL, right, lets take this extremely well balanced game with a proven damage system, and IMPROVE IT!! We'll achieve this by making it LESS COMPLICATED!!!!! Although I have absolutely NO IDEA whether I'm correct or not, I will NOT change my newly created damage system. The only thing I will do is to promise to KEEP BALANCING, needlessly expanding arbitrary +XXX dmg vs XXX to more units until nobody knows what the fuck is going on.
Are you honestly saying that Blizzard should completely ransack a game that has already been released, to switch to a damage system that, with the exception of Medium and a few esotheric types (Massive, Psionic), is no different from SC1's damage system? Thus necessitating a complete rebalancing of every unit's stats?
Are you kidding? Even if you took SC2 and went back to SC1's damage model, it's not like Spider Mines would magically poof back into existence. It will not suddenly make hard counters go away, because hard counters were part of StarCraft 1 too!
Speed Vultures cannot be killed by Zerglings if you micro them. Period. Siege Tanks alone cannot stop Zealots. Zealots alone will not stop Vultures. And so on. Why do these exist?
Because Vultures do 5 + 15 Small 20 Concussive damage and Zerglings/Zealots are Small. Because Siege Tanks do 35 + 35 vs. Large 70 Explosive damage and Zealots are Small.
Just went through this thread, if you take away all the typical SC2/Blizzard hate and BW fanboys then there really is not much of an argument for the OP
3 attack types (armor piercing, balanced, anti-personnel) & 3 armor types (heavy armor, medium armor, light armor) is very simple and straightforward, and they behave as you'd expect.
SC2's system is more powerful, but to stay simple, SC2 doesn't make much use of its power.
On October 15 2010 10:43 kasumimi wrote: I don't want to be a dick but this debate seems meaningless. I found the exact quote from Dustin Browder. Blizzard considers the "hard counter" system much better and I seriously doubt it is ever going to change.
"Q: The damage modifiers have been slowly weeded out through the patches, have you thought about getting rid of them completely? A: StarCraft had a damage system that was similar to ours only it was more complicated and a lot less clear. We are very happy with our damage system as a significant improvement over the original StarCraft and will continue to use it as a balance tool to try to create the best strategy game we can. There are no plans to cut it."
LOL, right, lets take this extremely well balanced game with a proven damage system, and IMPROVE IT!! We'll achieve this by making it LESS COMPLICATED!!!!! Although I have absolutely NO IDEA whether I'm correct or not, I will NOT change my newly created damage system. The only thing I will do is to promise to KEEP BALANCING, needlessly expanding arbitrary +XXX dmg vs XXX to more units until nobody knows what the fuck is going on.
Are you honestly saying that Blizzard should completely ransack a game that has already been released, to switch to a damage system that, with the exception of Medium and a few esotheric types (Massive, Psionic), is no different from SC1's damage system? Thus necessitating a complete rebalancing of every unit's stats?
Are you kidding? Even if you took SC2 and went back to SC1's damage model, it's not like Spider Mines would magically poof back into existence. It will not suddenly make hard counters go away, because hard counters were part of StarCraft 1 too!
Speed Vultures cannot be killed by Zerglings if you micro them. Period. Siege Tanks alone cannot stop Zealots. Zealots alone will not stop Vultures. And so on. Why do these exist?
Because Vultures do 5 + 15 Small 20 Concussive damage and Zerglings/Zealots are Small. Because Siege Tanks do 35 + 35 vs. Large 70 Explosive damage and Zealots are Small.
That's exactly my point, siege tanks are now 35dmg vs light + 15dmg vs armoured, where did the 15 come from, why not make it 13.52093857209385209358 and then tweak it over and over again. In sc1 I only had to remember 1 dmg number and could figure out in my head what its going to do against all the other units, but now in sc2 there are two numbers. Is it system really LESS COMPLICATED like that guy says? REALLY?
Right, so IF blizzard decided to make complicated numbers for their units it would be a complicated system.
In bw could you imaging a unit that did 13.52093857209385209358 damage, then having to divide it down for all the different types of unit?
Making up numbers is a retarded way of arguing your point because it is pure fiction, the fact is the system in SC2 is simple because the numbers are simple, remembering two numbers isn't difficult.
i agree that some units just do a retarted amount of dmg, i just played a BW game today and it was awesome back and forth ZvP where i eventually lost due to good muta control. any way it just seemed so fair in a way, I know SC2 is a new game and all, but cmon 2 dropships of stimmed rauders can kill a hatch, nexus in like 4 seconds its a little ridiculous, aswell as hydras, they rape shit so hard, not too say hydras dont have their counters but just so much dmg
It would be cool to try out a version of sc, where all attacks including DoT spells, do 60-70% normal dps. Movement speed is still the same, DoT spells simply last longer. More reinforcing batles could occur. At the moment, one of the few battles with the potential to rage back and forth for a extended amount of time, is the collolus vs collolus battle, and that is because micro and positional errors can swing the battle 180 degrees, even with uneven sides.
Timing based defences like in PvT, usually resolve themselves in very short single battles, while fights like 3 rax against 1 gate expo go on until the protoss economy kicks in, or the terran kills the protoss, that can be up to a minute in game time.
Having multiple battles over say...5 minutes would make sc2 much more awesome.
On October 15 2010 14:09 Slago wrote: i agree that some units just do a retarted amount of dmg, i just played a BW game today and it was awesome back and forth ZvP where i eventually lost due to good muta control. any way it just seemed so fair in a way, I know SC2 is a new game and all, but cmon 2 dropships of stimmed rauders can kill a hatch, nexus in like 4 seconds its a little ridiculous, aswell as hydras, they rape shit so hard, not too say hydras dont have their counters but just so much dmg
It'd take 10 seconds with Stim ( "Normal" ) and 8 seconds with Stim ( "Faster" )
On October 15 2010 14:08 Myrdin wrote: Right, so IF blizzard decided to make complicated numbers for their units it would be a complicated system.
In bw could you imaging a unit that did 13.52093857209385209358 damage, then having to divide it down for all the different types of unit?
Making up numbers is a retarded way of arguing your point because it is pure fiction, the fact is the system in SC2 is simple because the numbers are simple, remembering two numbers isn't difficult.
Did you even read what I was responding to? Talk about retarded!
the light/armored system works pretty good so far, with a few exceptions maybe
izerg, zerg has few units that do extra dmg to light or armored, (only ultras, and corruptors are out of the question.) personally i would think and a dmg buff to hydras, maybe like 12+4 to light or something would make the hydras a lot more viable, that way they don't get absolutely faceraped by hellions.
i just hate how a unit gets countered by what its supposed to counter. Makes no sense whats so ever. And i hate that theres really no unit that sucks vs another unit, but if you micro, you can win. The only exception now that i can think of is blink stalkers vs zerglings if you do it right. But thats really it.
Honestly, we can argue forever about how BW had much better variability and gameplay style and thats why sc2 is fail, but as a noob, all i can go off of is the pro scene out there right now, the buzz it's generating, and the popularity hitting the non-bw fans out there.
BW was an awesome game, but SC2 is awesome too, even with all the changes to gameplay (i'd rather say distinctive than worse)
I love SC2 for being so different from SCBW. Cuz some poster mentioned that they wanted to make a BW mod. Go ahead, but I aint paying 60 per expansion for a game that came out a decade ago, just with prettier graphics.
GIVE ME NEW.. and so far, they're delivering. Let's embrace the new, yes?
IF not, just go back to playing BW. Simple, right?
On October 15 2010 14:09 Slago wrote: i agree that some units just do a retarted amount of dmg, i just played a BW game today and it was awesome back and forth ZvP where i eventually lost due to good muta control. any way it just seemed so fair in a way, I know SC2 is a new game and all, but cmon 2 dropships of stimmed rauders can kill a hatch, nexus in like 4 seconds its a little ridiculous, aswell as hydras, they rape shit so hard, not too say hydras dont have their counters but just so much dmg
It'd take 10 seconds with Stim ( "Normal" ) and 8 seconds with Stim ( "Faster" )
Coincidentally, 8 marines could kill a hatchery in about 8 seconds in BW, as well...
On October 15 2010 14:09 Slago wrote: i agree that some units just do a retarted amount of dmg, i just played a BW game today and it was awesome back and forth ZvP where i eventually lost due to good muta control. any way it just seemed so fair in a way, I know SC2 is a new game and all, but cmon 2 dropships of stimmed rauders can kill a hatch, nexus in like 4 seconds its a little ridiculous, aswell as hydras, they rape shit so hard, not too say hydras dont have their counters but just so much dmg
It'd take 10 seconds with Stim ( "Normal" ) and 8 seconds with Stim ( "Faster" )
Coincidentally, 8 marines could kill a hatchery in about 8 seconds in BW, as well...
he's talking about marauders though...
Cooldown on sc1 rines after stim = 7.5frames / 24 or 0.3125 = up to 3.2x hits a sec ( slightly less though supposedly due to random delay intervals ) ( almost as high as marauders in sc2 dps when both stimmed ~19.2 vs 1.5 x 20 / 1.5 )
Cooldown on sc2 rines after stim = 0.86 x ( 1/ 1.5 ) = 0.573 = 1.74x hits a sec
EPT
