EPTCheckPrime, Tester, Cool on the upcoming 1.2 - Page 7
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NonY
8751 Posts
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
On October 09 2010 09:20 Trampsi wrote: I' kinda expecting the roach range to be researchable at lair or hive tech. Blizzard only commented on rocah lategame viability, nothing about early game i don't believe. Maybe 2 roach warrens will become standard for roach play, to get the upgrades out in time. I'd really rather see it be a T2 upgrade. Hell, roll it into roach speed, without increasing the cost. T1 Range 4 roaches seems... Excessive. Terran can defend Zealot rush when building Supply Depot before Barracks. They have to do it already because they normally go Supply Depot Barracks before they know they're being rushed. Nightfall what is the point of all your bullshit? Point is that "Pylon is necessary before Gateway" is not equivalent to "Supply Depot is necessary before Barracks". The Pylon requirement does not hinder Protoss cheese, but the Sypple Depot requirement will. | ||
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Chronicle
161 Posts
On October 09 2010 08:54 Nightfall.589 wrote: 30+60 = 90? 25+65 = 90? Zealots take 37 seconds to build. Chronoboost decreases that by 33%. That's 25 seconds. Marines take... 25 seconds to build. You can't micro a single marine against a zealot. You can't micro 2 marines against 2 zealots. You can't micro 3 marines against 2 zealots. Marines don't start with stim. You don't need to chronoboost to be on par with the production of a no-addon barracks. A no-addon barracks takes 50 seconds to create 2 supply worth of marines (A reactor barracks can do it in 25 seconds, but it takes 110 seconds to construct. A tech lab barracks can do it in 30 seconds, and takes ~85 seconds to construct). One gateway takes 37 seconds to make 2 supply worth of zealots. When chrono-boosted, it takes 25. Wrong Zealots take 38 seconds and chronoboost will NOT last for the entire production of a zealot meaning it will take 28 seconds for a chronoboosted zealot. A single Chronoboost will only shave off 10 seconds off anything that takes 30 seconds or more everytime. Secondly 2 marines are 100 minerals, 2 zealots are 200 minerals. Thirdly chronoboost requires an econ sacrifice unlike for say Mules or Supply drop. Finally thank feck marines do not start with stim, why does the most cost effective unit in the game need its 50% dps increase as a passive? Also massive LOL at you using the phrase "2 supply worth of zealots", thats pure desperation for your argument right there. | ||
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
On October 09 2010 09:37 Chronicle wrote: Wrong Zealots take 38 seconds and chronoboost will NOT last for the entire production of a zealot meaning it will take 28 seconds for a chronoboosted zealot. A single Chronoboost will only shave off 10 seconds off anything that takes 30 seconds or more everytime. Secondly 2 marines are 100 minerals, 2 zealots are 200 minerals. Thirdly chronoboost requires an econ sacrifice unlike for say Mules or Supply drop. Finally thank feck marines do not start with stim, why does the most cost effective unit in the game need its 50% dps increase as a passive? Also massive LOL at you using the phrase "2 supply worth of zealots", thats pure desperation for your argument right there. You can use chrono-boost more then once, you know. Do you just ignore the simple fact that a barracks without add-ons is just over half as effective as a Gateway? | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
On October 09 2010 09:34 Nightfall.589 wrote: I'd really rather see it be a T2 upgrade. Hell, roll it into roach speed, without increasing the cost. T1 Range 4 roaches seems... Excessive. Point is that "Pylon is necessary before Gateway" is not equivalent to "Supply Depot is necessary before Barracks". The Pylon requirement does not hinder Protoss cheese, but the Sypple Depot requirement will. Nobody ever said they were exactly the same but I can't believe that you don't see the similarity. | ||
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Chronicle
161 Posts
On October 09 2010 09:39 Nightfall.589 wrote: You can use chrono-boost more then once, you know. Do you just ignore the simple fact that a barracks without add-ons is just over half as effective as a Gateway? Oh yeah another 25 energy. 50 so far, oh isnt that what a Mule costs? Hmm 10 second faster zealot or 3 more zealots.... Or wait what about the non used supply drop which is equal to a free zealot... hmmm.... Yeah either 1 of those would be preferable. Oh look, Terran has both. Why are you ignoring that cost for cost Terran units are better than Protoss units in every single way and that Terran cheese is the only cheese ATM that is not an all in move because of how insanely retarded mules are? Edit - And since you seem to not understand what Nony is on about I'll dumb it down for you. Zerg - Pool + Drone = 250 minerals Protoss - Pylon + Gate = 250 minerals Terran - Supply Depo + Rax = 250 minerals ATM Terran cheese is 100 minerals faster because they can skip the depo. Earlygame that is a fuckton. Not to mention that if you do it with bunkers your cheese investment is free since you can salvage them. | ||
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Ksi
357 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
btw just a random comment: marines are like phoenixes with the way they move and shoot (don't even need stim) | ||
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
On October 09 2010 07:45 emc wrote: Well broodlords just don't do well against terran at all, this should be common knowledge, the vikings eat up broods, the thors/marines eat up the mutas who counter the vikings who have to get within their range to attack the 9 range of the viking. Then if you want to use banes to counter you have siege tanks to worry about, so you need the drop technology which would have only set your army back 200/200. Ultras are definitely more cost effective against T and I think Broods are better against P because P doesn't have two 9 ranged anti air units like the viking and thor. Those are just two units that need tweaking IMO, maybe the viking gains mobility but loses air range or the thor loses some ground damage, I dunno, something about those two units just makes fighting terran a pain and doesn't seem like it's at all hard for terran to do. Yeah, I'm QQing here! I don't think roach range should change, reapers are already gonna get nerfed with the speed upgrade at factory. If anything, I think something like giving Queens 50 energy off spawn would greatly help, as you can spread creep and spawn larve, something that simple would really change the early game for the better. Or something simple like giving burrow at hatch tech after pool would greatly change the early game and players would have a choice if they want to use burrowed roaches or go for the lair tech, it would be a risk reward system, what SC has always been known for. Even you'r main man IdrA says that BroodLords are a little OP. Honestly I am just going to say that and stop right there. BroodLords have never been in question until Cool says something and now all the Zergs are complaining about how they need a buff? Wtf, I am starting to honestly loose faith in this games community as a whole. This BroodLord discussion is ludicrous and for you to say that BL's don't do good against Terran is way off base. Why would you make mutas to counter the Vikings anyway, you've got ground attacking BL's anyway so add some anti-air, not hurass units thats you'r problem. Oh, and not to mention, Thors do jack diddly squat to BL's and definately are not a cost effective counter. AT ALL. Theres no splash if you space them properly and their attacks to air are really not all that great. <3 Ignorant Terran nubs. Rax's take 60 seconds to build, not the 65 of a gateway. Zealots still come out slower chronoboosted than a marine, and a micro'd marine beats a zealot same as a reaper. For the most part with production chronoboost is needed to be on par with the other races until warpgate tech since cost for cost earlygame their units loose to everything. It still myths me to this day why the hell stalkers are more expensive than marauders for this reason.  Honestly, you wonder why stalkers cost more than marauders?.... Oh boy here we go...Is everyone going to continue to search for stuff to whine about and say needs a buff because it seems to me like every week a new unit needs to be nerfed or buffed. I think Blizzard listened to the community too well and now everyone thinks that everything should change. Jesus, the game is no where near as bad as some of you people make it seem. Get over you'r self. | ||
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
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Chronicle
161 Posts
On October 09 2010 09:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote: And your talk about efficiency and effectiveness is ridiculous. What is the point? Simply put when side A has X better than side B when side B has nothing better than side A to compensate, shit isn't fair. Thats what balance boils down to in the end however numbers are so numerous that for the most part it does not matter what changes in the grand scale of things. What currently unbalances the game is when X is always better than Y, which is effected by numbers. A good example is patch 1.1 where zealots now take +5 seconds to produce. On October 09 2010 09:57 ckw wrote: Honestly, you wonder why stalkers cost more than marauders?.... Oh boy here we go...Is everyone going to continue to search for stuff to whine about and say needs a buff because it seems to me like every week a new unit needs to be nerfed or buffed. I think Blizzard listened to the community too well and now everyone thinks that everything should change. Jesus, the game is no where near as bad as some of you people make it seem. Get over you'r self. The result of Blizzard listening to the community (IE Crying Terrans) is the entire reason Terran is by far the better of the 3 races overall and only now that the game is out of beta and Esport are they getting their act together. Remember that -1 range nerf on void rays? Yeah that was a result of Terrans crying that defending required effort so now its a flying reaper. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
On October 09 2010 02:45 Lina wrote: The speed and damaging potential of a proxy gate rush is on par with that of a proxy rax rush regardless of having to place a pylon first. Take away the speed of the proxy rax and terran is left with very little "cheese" builds which can take an opponent off guard. Not that cheese should be used frequently, but it certainly should be an option. Bunker rush is horrid now. Its nowhere near as good as before - where you could rush reapers and have a bunker building to protect them. All it takes is one spinecrawler strategically placed to eliminate bunker shenanigans, lings on creep eat marines alive, and it is ezpz for a queen to snipe the scv building the bunker. Bunker rush is old news vs. zerg. How will it force terrans to improve control? The top players already have excellent hellion control, the bottom players won't bother to improve their control, and the mid players then get screwed as their moderate control gets completely countered by a-clicking roaches. TvZ is just going to turn into, "If I cant harass the zerg expo early and kill at least 5 units, then I lose." Let the terrans have their harass early game, and let the zerg have their "I can replenish my whole army in 30 seconds" late game. Sorry but Roaches in my mind are supposed to be the "hard counter" to hellions. I think its BS that they are outranged by the unit they're supposed to be hard countering. You're supposed to abuse Hellions mobility to try get around the roaches, not be able to kite them. On October 09 2010 09:34 Nightfall.589 wrote: I'd really rather see it be a T2 upgrade. Hell, roll it into roach speed, without increasing the cost. T1 Range 4 roaches seems... Excessive. Point is that "Pylon is necessary before Gateway" is not equivalent to "Supply Depot is necessary before Barracks". The Pylon requirement does not hinder Protoss cheese, but the Sypple Depot requirement will. If they make the range an upgrade, do you realise how ridiculous that would be? You can't give a T1 unit FOUR UPGRADES that can only be research at T2. That's ridiculous. Want burrow move? Research burrow AND move. Want speed? Research speed. Want range? Research range. Come on man, that's a little ridiculous. | ||
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abrasion
Australia722 Posts
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
1. You build tons of corruptors to counter Colossi. 2. ??????? 3. BroodLords roll over protoss army | ||
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Flannman
United States17 Posts
The other part of the patch that is most retarded is the reaper speed upgrade. There was no reason to nerf the reaper anymore. Reapers were still doable they just weren't catastrophic but still annoying as hell when played right. Having units that nobody will use is just dumb. As for the broodlords im not that sure since most of my games don't make it that late into the game, or if they do I ended up getting ultras instead. They do die a little too quick though. As for the depot before barracks...personally it doesn't bother me because I usually don't lose to terrans who build a rax before depot. | ||
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3132 Posts
I like the changes to Zerg building hp. This wasn't the change a lot of zergs wanted for roaches, but I guess it'll have to do for now. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On October 09 2010 10:12 Chronicle wrote: The result of Blizzard listening to the community (IE Crying Terrans) is the entire reason Terran is by far the better of the 3 races overall and only now that the game is out of beta and Esport are they getting their act together. Remember that -1 range nerf on void rays? Yeah that was a result of Terrans crying that defending required effort so now its a flying reaper. Lets not forget the zergs crying for the past 2 months, resulting in retarded changes like zealots 5 seconds slower, meaning terran can apply even MORE pressure on protoss early. Lovely change, blizzard. I think its time us Protoss players start randomly bitching about something, even though we've suffered nerfs in every single patch from the beginning of beta. Protoss players have never gone on the "DO SOMETHING OR I QUIT/CHANGING RACES" tirades that terran and zergs have gone on.. Its funny how terrans thought they are so bad in beta, then all the sudden strats come out of korea like the 4rax expo or TLO's 1/1/1 and then we see a 2 month period of terran winning 75%+, at which zerg thinks they are horrible and all the sudden Cool wins the GSL and we see a huge zerg win increase.. All with no significant patch changes coming.. Its amazing what ADAPTING to the game does instead of sitting there crying! | ||
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RedLuck
Canada253 Posts
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AssuredVacancy
United States1167 Posts
On October 09 2010 15:00 Skyze wrote: Lets not forget the zergs crying for the past 2 months, resulting in retarded changes like zealots 5 seconds slower, meaning terran can apply even MORE pressure on protoss early. Lovely change, blizzard. I think its time us Protoss players start randomly bitching about something, even though we've suffered nerfs in every single patch from the beginning of beta. Protoss players have never gone on the "DO SOMETHING OR I QUIT/CHANGING RACES" tirades that terran and zergs have gone on.. Its funny how terrans thought they are so bad in beta, then all the sudden strats come out of korea like the 4rax expo or TLO's 1/1/1 and then we see a 2 month period of terran winning 75%+, at which zerg thinks they are horrible and all the sudden Cool wins the GSL and we see a huge zerg win increase.. All with no significant patch changes coming.. Its amazing what ADAPTING to the game does instead of sitting there crying! Where's the huge zerg increase? Check the tournament wins after the patch - it's still all terran and protoss with the occasional dimaga/darkforce. | ||
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