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On October 01 2010 01:18 fdsdfg wrote:
I think everyone is blowing this way out of proportion TBH.
Ok, ultras don't beat a bunch of thors at cost. They really didn't before. Nothing does. Noting beats a bunch of Marauders at cost either, or Marines, or half of Terran units. Zerg still deals with this, and has dealt with it since roaches were neutered.
Ultras take damage and they deal pretty good damage. That's it. They still do that, they just don't level a big mech ball as quickly. You still need other sources of DPS for that.
If this is what Blizzard does with the ultralisk, fine, I'll still use it. At least they can kill a PF and repairing SCVs now.
Wait, one of our core units for lategame has its damage output decreased by pretty much 50% and you say it's been blown out of proportion?
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I really start to believe that nothing will change with Zerg until Hots...
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On September 30 2010 21:52 dvide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 14:58 Omoplata wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/791409599?page=1I didn't see this posted here yet. To summarize, someone didn't believe Blizzard's response stating that Ultralisk splash range was unintentionally extended in patch 1.1, so they decided to test it. They did a fresh install of the game and tested Ultras v. Buildings (this part isn't really important, I think it just showed that the Ultra was using Ram in the unpatched version), then Ultra vs Thors with SCVs behind it, and compared it to patch 1.1.1. Unpatched results - Ultra attacks Thor, damages SCVs 3 rows deep (behind Thor). 1.1.1 results - Ultra attacks Thor, damages SCVs 1 row deep (behind Thor). Basically, it just shows that Blizzard is either mistaken, or flat out lying when it comes to their claim that 1.1.1 was fixing an unintentional range increase. Here's the youtube video: + Show Spoiler + It was still a bug, but it just wasn't introduced in patch 1.1 (except vs buildings indirectly). It was actually "introduced" in a beta patch, as they intended to change the splash mechanic to what it is like right now but they apparently didn't and nobody noticed. It was only noticed when 1.1 came out because they removed the ram attack, and so as some buildings like command centres are much larger than any unit the old bug was thus more visibly pronounced. I don't think Blizzard's blue posters understand this though, as they incorrectly stated that the bug was introduced in patch 1.1 as opposed to it having been in the game all along. EDIT: Actually this is slightly wrong. I took a look at the beta patch notes for myself and I found no mention of them changing the way ultra splash works to the current formula. I could have sworn I read somebody else say that. But either way it's not like they have playtested the new ultra. So any way you slice it, it amounts to a much larger nerf than Blizzard ever probably intended and they seem oblivious to that.
It was introduced in Beta patch 13. It was an unlisted change, with the other unlisted change that patch being 33% damage splash instead of 100% damage splash.
Neither change was listed in the patch notes, so I guess if you count the AoE change a 'bug' so was the splash damage change, right Blizzard?
Sorry, but I can't think to myself for a second that those changes (changing AoE to target based while at the same time changing it to 33% damage) weren't intentional and linked.
Edit: They keep calling it a bug introduced in 1.1 because they probably just don't want to admit they were idiots and didn't even test the Ultra building splash.
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On October 01 2010 01:08 Bodhi wrote:Update from Blizzard: Show nested quote +We did a little extra tracking on our end, and indeed, the Ultralisk bug existed at one point during the beta, so unfortunately, it's been around awhile and thus why many people thought it had been working as intended.
As it stands now, this unit is working as intended. As always though, we are continuing to keep a close eye on how this affects gameplay on multiple levels and will continue to watch for constructive feedback from the community. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/791409599?page=5#96
wait so how exactly am I supposed to fight a Thor/Hellion/Tanks army with Bio/Scvs behind them ?
Dont say Broodlords plz.. plz dont...
Yes I dont possess the insane multitasking abilities as Fruitdealer and my fruits are not as big.
I really dont get THIS response. So they nerf Zerg by fixing a bug but at the same time they agree Z being kinda weak. I just dont get it. Gimme back my +damage on Ultras asap. The fuck are they actually patching nowadays.
.. I cant really articulate myself today Ive been working to hard 
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On October 01 2010 01:33 smileyyy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 01:08 Bodhi wrote:Update from Blizzard: We did a little extra tracking on our end, and indeed, the Ultralisk bug existed at one point during the beta, so unfortunately, it's been around awhile and thus why many people thought it had been working as intended.
As it stands now, this unit is working as intended. As always though, we are continuing to keep a close eye on how this affects gameplay on multiple levels and will continue to watch for constructive feedback from the community. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/791409599?page=5#96 wait so how exactly am I supposed to fight a Thor/Hellion/Tanks army with Bio/Scvs behind them ? Dont say Broodlords plz.. plz dont... Yes I dont possess the insane multitasking abilities as Fruitdealer and my fruits are not as big. I really dont get THIS response. So they nerf Zerg by fixing a bug but at the same time they agree Z being kinda weak. I just dont get it. Gimme back my +damage on Ultras asap. The fuck are they actually patching nowadays. .. I cant really articulate myself today Ive been working to hard Ultralisk/ling is probably the best bet. Roaches will work for some ratios between hellions, tanks, and thors.
Broodlord/corrupter/infestor can work too, but that is harder to manage if the Terran has good micro.
If you're sufficiently up on gas compared to the terran, mass muta + magic box will do it too. Usually with pure mech, you can out expand a terran very easily and take a lot of geysers quickly, so it's a pretty viable thing to do.
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oh wow, so what about the neff of the ultras damage in 1.1? do blizzard think before they speak now? This is unbelievable.
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On October 01 2010 01:47 koppik wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 01:33 smileyyy wrote:On October 01 2010 01:08 Bodhi wrote:Update from Blizzard: We did a little extra tracking on our end, and indeed, the Ultralisk bug existed at one point during the beta, so unfortunately, it's been around awhile and thus why many people thought it had been working as intended.
As it stands now, this unit is working as intended. As always though, we are continuing to keep a close eye on how this affects gameplay on multiple levels and will continue to watch for constructive feedback from the community. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/791409599?page=5#96 wait so how exactly am I supposed to fight a Thor/Hellion/Tanks army with Bio/Scvs behind them ? Dont say Broodlords plz.. plz dont... Yes I dont possess the insane multitasking abilities as Fruitdealer and my fruits are not as big. I really dont get THIS response. So they nerf Zerg by fixing a bug but at the same time they agree Z being kinda weak. I just dont get it. Gimme back my +damage on Ultras asap. The fuck are they actually patching nowadays. .. I cant really articulate myself today Ive been working to hard Ultralisk/ling is probably the best bet. Roaches will work for some ratios between hellions, tanks, and thors. Broodlord/corrupter/infestor can work too, but that is harder to manage if the Terran has good micro. If you're sufficiently up on gas compared to the terran, mass muta + magic box will do it too.
That it is what the Ultra is made for. I have to agree that we have to wait and play some more games to fully grasp the impact of the area reduction of the cleave attack. But the numbers say its a decrease between 20-50% -> hence making the Ultra worse to fight vs this combo. And it was not that easy at all before. You had to flank maybe use infestors and try to get some banes in etc.
Mass Muta dont work if he has marines there. Also he should have way more than 5 Thors Your Banes will die pretty fast to tanks and the Thors will block them.
Outexpanding a Terran is nice but you have to pay lots of attention to drops. but thats kinda manageable. The Problem with the Deathball he is acquiring he will just roflstomp you when he moves out. Well these are atleast the problems I had.
The thing that annoys me is that I was ok with T mech since I knew I just have to get 3+ bases and wait for my sweet Ultras and they might actually kill the T.
Na I guess I am whinning bit too much. I just have to play some games so I have more facts to based my QQ on.  but numbers dont lie
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Heaven forbid Zerg gets a unit that can potentially be 1a'd, now it's pretty much non-ideal. Maybe if vikings and thors didn't have 9 AA range, this would be a little more passable as Broodlords would have a better shot at taking down late game mech, but that's not the case.
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People understand that this was Blizzard's intention, right? Originally, splash extended at a range of 2 from the center of the target hit. In 1.1, splash was buffed to extend at a range of 2 from the outer surface of the target hit. In 1.1.1, splash was nerfed to extend (as intended) at a range of 2 from the front of the ultralisk, where the attack originates. This does nerf splash from the original version because the distance from the front of the ultralisk to the center of the target hit extended the splash radius beyond the intended radius of 2. Since the additional splash range was equal to the radius of the target hit, it was most visible with large targets like thors and siege tanks, but it was also present with smaller units like marines. It seems clear to me that this patch reverts the splash radius to the original design intents, but people seem upset because it is an effectively smaller splash radius than they were used to.
I won't comment on what the optimal splash radius is, but I think it makes much more sense for the splash to originate from the front of the ultralisk than from the center of the target hit. The latter created an odd situation where splash radius depended on the size of the target. Now, the splash radius will be constant. The issue shouldn't be whether splash should be reverted to its previous state, but rather what the optimal radius is. If ultras are found to be too weak now, splash radius could be buffed slightly beyond 2.
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All these complicated splash damage explanations are interesting, but the bottom line is, in a battle, THOR > ULTRA. And that is just not right. Right now the terran trend is to go bio mech with a lot of thors, and pretty much anything that zerg cand do is get roflstomped by the deathball. Ultras used to save that situation, now they don't.....
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wouldnt it be cool if they made ultras push smaller units around? that way you could divide a terrans bio ball by running in a couple ultras, then surround the individual groups of mm with lings
would also look crazy cool imho
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yeah, and add another one dimensional micro ability which disable the opponent from micro.
not like we haven't alrdy enough of such game crushers (ff, concussive, fungal)
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Well no matter how hard that nerf actually hits, no one can deny it's a nerf, and it is definitely not what Zerg needs right now.
What really boggles my mind is that some protoss reports the phoenix bug (with one single and easily misunderstandable sentence) and not one day later a blue has replied like 3 times.
This issue is very well documented reported and repostet over and over again, and we hardly hear anything.
Also ... doesn't Blizzard test their patches?? They basically tried to sell us on the removal of head butt with the argument that splash would also work on buildings (supply depots where the exact example used). I mean what the hell, they should have noticed that if they had tried it out even once right? I don't get it.
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They were comparing it against Supply Depots. They figured no one would use it against CC's I'm betting.
That could probably be the only laughable reason why they didn't see this coming.
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On October 01 2010 02:09 kcdc wrote:
People understand that this was Blizzard's intention, right? Originally, splash extended at a range of 2 from the center of the target hit. In 1.1, splash was buffed to extend at a range of 2 from the outer surface of the target hit. In 1.1.1, splash was nerfed to extend (as intended) at a range of 2 from the front of the ultralisk, where the attack originates. This does nerf splash from the original version because the distance from the front of the ultralisk to the center of the target hit extended the splash radius beyond the intended radius of 2. Since the additional splash range was equal to the radius of the target hit, it was most visible with large targets like thors and siege tanks, but it was also present with smaller units like marines. It seems clear to me that this patch reverts the splash radius to the original design intents, but people seem upset because it is an effectively smaller splash radius than they were used to.
I won't comment on what the optimal splash radius is, but I think it makes much more sense for the splash to originate from the front of the ultralisk than from the center of the target hit. The latter created an odd situation where splash radius depended on the size of the target. Now, the splash radius will be constant. The issue shouldn't be whether splash should be reverted to its previous state, but rather what the optimal radius is. If ultras are found to be too weak now, splash radius could be buffed slightly beyond 2.
You should at least have read the quote from a Blizzard rep that's just a few posts above yours, instead of making stuff up.
The ultra splash behaviour has existed for months. It was not introduced in 1.1.0
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On October 01 2010 02:37 Ajunoo wrote:
What really boggles my mind is that some protoss reports the phoenix bug (with one single and easily misunderstandable sentence) and not one day later a blue has replied like 3 times.
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the phoenix bug breaks phoenix even more than this nerf breaks ultras
also with the phoenix bug they cannot deny it was an oversight. maybe it would have been too embarassing to confirm that they managed to fuck up ultras in two patches in a row just because they have not a single competent person testing their patches
graviton bug is embarrassing enough as it is
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Don't get me wrong it's great they fix the phoenix bug, it's just that we haven't gotten as much as a lousy "we'll look into it" yet, and quite frankly the ultralisk splash couldn't have been an oversight, at least i can't possibly imagine how.
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On October 01 2010 02:37 Ajunoo wrote:
Well no matter how hard that nerf actually hits, no one can deny it's a nerf, and it is definitely not what Zerg needs right now.
What really boggles my mind is that some protoss reports the phoenix bug (with one single and easily misunderstandable sentence) and not one day later a blue has replied like 3 times.
This issue is very well documented reported and repostet over and over again, and we hardly hear anything.
Also ... doesn't Blizzard test their patches?? They basically tried to sell us on the removal of head butt with the argument that splash would also work on buildings (supply depots where the exact example used). I mean what the hell, they should have noticed that if they had tried it out even once right? I don't get it.
Well the phoenix thing was actually a bug while this is a bug FIX. Fixing the mechanic so that it works intuitively is a plus. The fact that it imbalances the unit is unfortunate, but that doesn't mean the fix shouldn't happen. I don't get why so many people are crying for the fix to be reverted. This is how Blizzard should have implemented the cleave attack in the fist place. It makes no sense the damage would be spread from the attacked unit instead of from the attacking unit.
Balance-wise, :-/ If it's true that this makes Zerg crippled in the late game, then Blizzard should rebalance the game. However, I don't think that "ultras don't counter thors anymore!" is a valid argument. I don't think a fat melee unit with a splash attack was ever meant to counter an equally fat ranged unit with a powerful single-target attack.
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On October 01 2010 03:16 neonKow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 02:37 Ajunoo wrote:
Well no matter how hard that nerf actually hits, no one can deny it's a nerf, and it is definitely not what Zerg needs right now.
What really boggles my mind is that some protoss reports the phoenix bug (with one single and easily misunderstandable sentence) and not one day later a blue has replied like 3 times.
This issue is very well documented reported and repostet over and over again, and we hardly hear anything.
Also ... doesn't Blizzard test their patches?? They basically tried to sell us on the removal of head butt with the argument that splash would also work on buildings (supply depots where the exact example used). I mean what the hell, they should have noticed that if they had tried it out even once right? I don't get it. Well the phoenix thing was actually a bug while this is a bug FIX. Fixing the mechanic so that it works intuitively is a plus. The fact that it imbalances the unit is unfortunate, but that doesn't mean the fix shouldn't happen. I don't get why so many people are crying for the fix to be reverted. This is how Blizzard should have implemented the cleave attack in the fist place. It makes no sense the damage would be spread from the attacked unit instead of from the attacking unit. Balance-wise, :-/ If it's true that this makes Zerg crippled in the late game, then Blizzard should rebalance the game. However, I don't think that "ultras don't counter thors anymore!" is a valid argument. I don't think a fat melee unit with a splash attack was ever meant to counter an equally fat ranged unit with a powerful single-target attack.
so what are they supposed to counter then? small tier 1 units? marines zerglings and zealots? give me a break. So a Thor can destroy things at range, and has and insane anti air attack...
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Not only will this not be fixed but you're probably going to see Ultra nerfs in the next patch.
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EPT
