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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 28 2010 04:15 Gentso wrote: It's been tried and it doesn't work. Is that your theory talking? You wrong. It's improved now that infested terrans take 2 tank shots instead of 1 to kill = more collateral damage! | ||
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indiehjaerta
Sweden93 Posts
On September 28 2010 15:35 Subversion wrote: GSL RO16 - 2 Zerg. GSL RO8 - 1 Zerg. Look I have numbers too! GSL RO4 - 1 Zerg. 0 Protoss. I just wanted to join this numbers game too. | ||
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s0ldierofortune
United States23 Posts
Reading that blizz should take patching slow due to the fact that the game is still evolving is nice and all, but unfortunatly Zerg evolution has stagnated. I blame this on the way blizz balanced zerg in the beta. People would come up with interesting strategies, such as the spine crawler rush with queen, or bringing a queen or two to transfuse ultras, and while these were to strong, instead of toning them down slightly, blizz made them completely unviable. The roach nerf can fit in this category too, making them 2 supply and lowering the armor, rather than trying one then the other made out early game pressure much weaker. In the beta zerg had awesome evolution, but it was detroyed to quickly, while terran and protoss did not develop certain builds (think 5 rax reaper) until after the game had been released. What would have happened to the 5 rax reaper had it been used and abused in beta? I play mostly zerg, but offrace protoss frequently (my terran is awful so I very rarely play it) and despite being better with zerg, I win more often with toss. I don't have to control 3-4 groups and pull off perfect surrounds to win fights, and macro requires much less apm/thought. Finally, the fact that zergs only OH SH- units or strategies (like the ones metioned above from beta that are obsolete now) are now both tier three (ultra and BL), and that tier three takes longest to get to as zerg, also makes the race far more difficult. I feel that zerg has no units under tier three which really force the opponent to react or damages their nerves. As a zerg, fending off multiple reapers, hellion into banshee, is a tense nervewracking moment, if I fail I gg. My best early aggresion, muta harass, is dealt with decently with mass marines and turrets, no tech switches required. Living to mid game, I have to deal with seige tanks and mass drops. If you think of the lurker or scourge in BW(hate to bring this up but it is an effective point) they were units that forced the enemy to adapt and take a more defensive stance...good oh sh- units. In Sc2 zerg lack this, the nydus worm could be this, but is to weak and expensive in its current state. Protoss and terran suffer from this far less, e.q. played a game the other day as toss, and was outplayed, I scouted poorly and was not prepared for a massive terran bio army, but I managed to stall with sentry's and a few gateway units until I got out HT and stormed my way to victory, and realized that had I been playing zerg I would never have won that game. | ||
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antifascist
United States14 Posts
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antifascist
United States14 Posts
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bargaw
Poland36 Posts
On September 28 2010 20:43 Yokoblue wrote: imo its the diversity the problem. T is really diversified so T are learning to play with a lot of tools... P and Z have less tools... P a bit more. While protoss have more tools, but his gameplay have been dampened since BW. No reaver drops, no arbiters, late templars, no corsairs, no scouts, no dark archon, no shield battery! Instead we got sentry and warp-in. (dragoon got split'd into stalker and immortal, yay) Zerg lost queen, defiler, lurker, guardian, scourge. But he got infestor, banelings, queen, movable static defences!, broodlord, roaches, overseer. Terran? Terran still have all tools from BW + he got more new ones. Medics still there(Medivac), Firebats still there(Helions), Vultures still there(Marauders, but no mines), SV->Raven, Wraith->Banshee, golaths->vikings. New: Supply depos, free bunkers, planetary fortress, orbital command, scanner tower(or w/e it's called), reapers,. SC2 is currently balanced around gold/silver league, Blizzard seems to never listen to top players, but to whiny kids on forums that are main source of money. PvT is so damn hard, because of all the tools terran have and protoss build is mostly concentrated about: -defending against reaper harras -defending timed marauder push with stim and slow -defending vs drops(terran have 'free' dropships) -defending templars from EMP -etc. also - Planetary Fortress is just too good defense for an expo, I've seen top Protoss players loosing whole games, because they couldn't take PF down, getting Voidrays mean you'll be eaten by bioball, Colosi are eaten by Vikings (VR too). Immortals are good, but planetary fortress has splash that require big spread, but don't forget that T can send scv's to repair and catch your force out of position(immortals on back, because they were tanking PF), against P or Z it's just r-click on nexus/hatch = down. | ||
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ArbAttack
Canada198 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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bonedriven
258 Posts
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s0ldierofortune
United States23 Posts
On September 28 2010 23:56 bonedriven wrote: Today fruitseller said I can win the champion if no new patch comes. Before or after 1.1.1? Ultra bug gone, while he didn't win because of it it certainly helped. | ||
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bonedriven
258 Posts
On September 28 2010 23:58 s0ldierofortune wrote: Before or after 1.1.1? Ultra bug gone, while he didn't win because of it it certainly helped. Before. | ||
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Maeldun
Australia169 Posts
On September 28 2010 23:43 antifascist wrote: how does this guy not get a warning for this posT? you only get warned if you flame ppl from TL (ie criticising TLO is a no-no, but trashing his opponents with smack talk is fine - don't believe me? check out the GSL thread where he loses....) | ||
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viraltouch
United States299 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On September 28 2010 19:02 Lobotomist wrote: Can we agree that tournaments are the best indicator of balance? The ladder ratings are not as good, as they can be skewed by games played and what strats people tend to execute on ladder: maybe they're not always the top tier, tourney winning builds. I wouldn't agree with this at all because tournament players represent an incredibly small percentage of the game-playing population. A balanced game is balanced across all levels of skill, not only at the top. Looking at the ladder overall is a much better indicator of game balance simply because it samples a much larger group of people across all skill levels and it also samples much more games. If anything, tournament results are more liable to be skewed by particular strategies and builds because less games are played and therefore, each game represents a larger percentage of the overall results. Another reason I believe that top-tier players are not the only ones that should be considered is because if it requires more skill to play one race on an equal footing with another race, that in itself is an imbalance in the game. Races should be diverse, but relatively close to each other in their learning curve and required skill level. That being said, you can't start playing the numbers game in the RO16 or the RO8 in the GSL and assume that is any indicator of balance because it's not. There's a lot of luck that plays out in tournaments. Depending on who you get matched up against or what build you or your opponent plays, it can have a major effect on who's left in the end. We've already seen huge upsets in the GSL where consistently good players simply get cheesed out or get outplayed in a rare occurance. I think it's obvious that their performance a single tournament does nothing to invalidate the plethora of games they've played on the ladder. This is exactly why you have to look at games across a larger scale rather than obsess over a handful of BO3's. | ||
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Rolster
United States19 Posts
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rdmtoe
France4 Posts
On September 28 2010 23:35 indiehjaerta wrote: GSL RO4 - 1 Zerg. 0 Protoss. I just wanted to join this numbers game too. You are right we must be more precise. RO16 7 Terrans 7 Toss 2 Zergs RO08 4 Terrans 3 Toss 1 Zerg RO04 3 Terrans 1 Zerg | ||
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Punkstar
Slovakia522 Posts
On September 28 2010 18:17 Kvz wrote: i remember watching a game where cool played vs SEN using his T. Cool's T annihilated Sen's Z. lol Well he previously stated that he is able to demolish any Zerg in the world while offracing.. | ||
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ROOTIllusion
United States1060 Posts
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tastehwafflez
United States16 Posts
On September 29 2010 04:08 [Illusion] wrote: hopefully patch 1.2 helps esports as it said it would. esp balance (Z) They already said that they weren't really going to do any major balance changes in 1.2 | ||
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andynewin
United States105 Posts
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Vz0
Canada378 Posts
On September 29 2010 04:16 andynewin wrote: fruit seller was forced to cheese to win ro8 The stream I was watching, there was no gun pointing to the back of his head. and then his opponent cheesed him with 2 gate next game 2gate is not cheese. l2starcraft tyvm : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese which is really not that hard to beat. I think zerg definitely has a problem here they need more options make overlord speed teir 1 maybe and burrow I dont know. wait what? They need to make overlrod speed tier 1 and burrow because of 2 gate? I really liked zerg in beta it actually just as powerful as the other 2 races I wonder why they nerfed the shit out of them. oh i don't know... maybe because zerg was the strongest race in the beta? maybe because roaches were op? I think zerg players have a higher skill on average thats the only they can win games on ladder. of course ! your a zerg player, your smart, your better than most of the people you play. Everyone is picking the noob race. Your pro so you pick zerg. You deserve more respect. You don't need to get better because your zerg and zerg is UP. | ||
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