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Fruitseller (Cool) may change his race in GSL #2 - Page 77

Forum Index > SC2 General
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wxwx
Profile Joined May 2010
527 Posts
September 27 2010 16:29 GMT
#1521
when is the whining here gonna stop.

It's already been proven Cool was just trolling you guys since a few days ago. I come back and there is still so much whine.
archon256
Profile Joined August 2010
United States363 Posts
September 27 2010 16:35 GMT
#1522
On September 28 2010 01:19 winternova wrote:
I just play straight to infestors now. Infestor pit pops out faster than spire, and if you research burrow when you land the pit you get burrow when your first infestor pops (around 8:30).

Timing is key, you can get more harras out of infestors, and they break turtles like a hot knife if you reach critical mass.

Just curious, but how do you go on the offensive with Infestors vs. a Terran who is sitting in his base building up a big push?
I normally go Muta/Ling/Baneling and I can send in the Muta to kill Drones/MULEs, force the Terran to make Turrets, Marines and Thors, as well as reducing the number of hellions, tanks and marauders he has (by sniping them) and will get (since he'll prefer anti-air).


"The troupe is ready, the stage is set. I come to dance, the dance of death"
winternova
Profile Joined September 2010
48 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-27 17:43:14
September 27 2010 17:04 GMT
#1523
you would be surprised at how much energy is gathered just crossing a map (first infestor will have 75 energy by the time the second and third roll up to the enemies main with 25-50 energy). Unless a Terran gets his engineering bay REAL fast, you can just sit and wait for a supply depot to drop and hit the mineral line (you get GREAT scouting info too). If he is just sitting there, hit his front lines with IT when you have 4 infestors. Taking down the wall only costs energy, so you end up ahead when you swarm in with your lings.

It all comes down to hitting the terran hard right before he can get his army up. Sometimes you just hide infestors round the corner, and when the big deathball (last game was 3 thors + tank + marines) leaves the base, when he's halfway accross the map and you start spamming infested terran, he's like, oh shoot, do I move my thors back or go forward... if he goes forward he has a huge amount of lings to hit, with wave after wave coming in.

Had 75% success rate with this build against all races.

Edit: and it is more cost effective than muta/ling, as Mutas are 100/100 your lings cost more. With Infestors you are 100/200 so you get 4 extra lings per infestor. And IT can jump up ramps right next to siege tanks =)

Also, because of the huge mineral advantage, you want an extra hatch in your main and preferbly an expansion (3 hatch at that point) by 30 supply. Because you have the extra hatch, you can have full drop/speed tech by 11 mins (it will cost you an infestor or 2 tho). IT at the front, dropped lings at the back?... at about the same time your typical muta harras would have reached critcal mass or been countered.

2 infestors with 75+ energy can take out a mineral line. 3 infestors with 75+ energy can take out a nexus/CC.
Phrencys
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada270 Posts
September 27 2010 18:13 GMT
#1524
It's not that zergs don't have the right amount of units, imo.

It's the zerg timings that seem off.

This is largely due to how they chose to balance roaches and hydras.

IMO Hydra should've remained hatch tech, with roaches coming later (lair) as a tanking unit.

Hydra could then be closer to its sc1 sister in terms of cost and dps, while giving roaches more "oomph" in the form of hardened shell and/or linear attack like hellions. Increasing their cost to 100/100 in the process.

The fact that Zerg is the only race without a non-gimmicky answer to early air certainly doesn't help. The fact that both zerg early units are easily kited doesn't help. The fact that zerg can only properly work on creep early on doesn't help. The fact that other races can just easily wall-off any early aggression (while zerg cannot) doesn't help their cause either.

Those are zerg's weaknesses early on, what are their advantages?
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
September 27 2010 18:20 GMT
#1525
On September 28 2010 03:13 Phrencys wrote:
It's not that zergs don't have the right amount of units, imo.

It's the zerg timings that seem off.

This is largely due to how they chose to balance roaches and hydras.

IMO Hydra should've remained hatch tech, with roaches coming later (lair) as a tanking unit.

Hydra could then be closer to its sc1 sister in terms of cost and dps, while giving roaches more "oomph" in the form of hardened shell and/or linear attack like hellions. Increasing their cost to 100/100 in the process.

The fact that Zerg is the only race without a non-gimmicky answer to early air certainly doesn't help. The fact that both zerg early units are easily kited doesn't help. The fact that zerg can only properly work on creep early on doesn't help. The fact that other races can just easily wall-off any early aggression (while zerg cannot) doesn't help their cause either.

Those are zerg's weaknesses early on, what are their advantages?


Having Hydras at tier 1 instead of roaches may introduce even more vulnerability to hellion harass. That's the trouble with just switching them.
Yargh
winternova
Profile Joined September 2010
48 Posts
September 27 2010 18:29 GMT
#1526
quick tech switching, quick at expanding/fully saturating that expansion...


Everyone plays mutas... Mutas are BW! So stop building them! use infestors until we get lurkers, then muta/lurker/ling will be a decent combo.

I'll admit, muta harassment is awesome in SC2, but it gets countered quickly, and kiting off 2-3scv with 3-5 mutas is not worth it when you can get 2-3 infestors out quicker and take out an entire mineral line + CC.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-27 18:38:40
September 27 2010 18:35 GMT
#1527
On September 28 2010 03:29 winternova wrote:
quick tech switching, quick at expanding/fully saturating that expansion...


Everyone plays mutas... Mutas are BW! So stop building them! use infestors until we get lurkers, then muta/lurker/ling will be a decent combo.

I'll admit, muta harassment is awesome in SC2, but it gets countered quickly, and kiting off 2-3scv with 3-5 mutas is not worth it when you can get 2-3 infestors out quicker and take out an entire mineral line + CC.


Without mutas, zerg has a much harder time controlling the map. You can't just sit outside his base as zerg because of mobility considerations. Zerglings and mutas can get to your expos fast, while roaches take longer, and hydras are laughable off creep. Not to mention, you can't babysit a tank terran or colossus toss.

*edit* wrote colossus zerg oddly.
Yargh
nuber4life
Profile Joined April 2010
United States17 Posts
September 27 2010 18:36 GMT
#1528
We just see Rainbow using multiple drop vs checkprime. I think cool was talking how can zerg stop this kind of harass? After seeing that game, i feel very sad for zerg lol.
winternova
Profile Joined September 2010
48 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-27 18:54:32
September 27 2010 18:50 GMT
#1529

Without mutas, zerg has a much harder time controlling the map. You can't just sit outside his base as zerg because of mobility considerations. Zerglings and mutas can get to your expos fast, while roaches take longer, and hydras are laughable off creep. Not to mention, you can't babysit a tank terran or colossus toss.

*edit* wrote colossus zerg oddly.


You won't need map control, I've taken out a 2 base terran with a fully saturated expo with 1 base as zerg (he had it in the hidden expansion area).

And it's actually easier to maintain control over the map as your infestors are constantly keeping his army inside his base while you are free to expand. And it's much cheaper than mutas as you just spend energy and get an extra couple lings for you gas expense.


Edit: usually you end the game under 10 minutes as vP (no wall, take out mineral line) or vT (they push out or expand and you get inside to hit the mineral line). Also extra hatch gives you drop tech quicker and infestor drops behind mineral line are also effective.


and 10 infestors sitting outside a Terran base can keep his army down to nothing if you keep using Infested Terran up the ramp. So you just expo up and overwhelm.
winternova
Profile Joined September 2010
48 Posts
September 27 2010 18:58 GMT
#1530
oh, and infestor using infested terran is the hard counter for Seige tanks.
stroggos
Profile Joined February 2009
New Zealand1543 Posts
September 27 2010 19:07 GMT
#1531
as a protoss player, i think that it's ridiculously stupid that hydras and roaches are super slow off of creep. Blizzard wanted zerg to be a mobile race but making them slower than ememy units off creep forces the race to very very passive, and unmobile, as any sort of build that involes having units off creep is pretty much an all in.
hi
winternova
Profile Joined September 2010
48 Posts
September 27 2010 19:10 GMT
#1532
Placement is key. Burrow is underutilized.
Gentso
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2218 Posts
September 27 2010 19:15 GMT
#1533
On September 28 2010 03:58 winternova wrote:
oh, and infestor using infested terran is the hard counter for Seige tanks.


It's been tried and it doesn't work. Is that your theory talking? You wrong.
winternova
Profile Joined September 2010
48 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-27 19:26:53
September 27 2010 19:23 GMT
#1534
Ok, it may not be the 'hard counter' but it has worked in practise. At 8:40 terran doesn't have a lot of detection, especially if they are going for a FE covered by seige tanks. As soon as they drop their supply depot your infestor(s) are inside their main wreaking havok on the mineral line...

and you are saying that 50-75 energy to take out a seige tank is a bad exchange? Sounds like a pretty hard counter to me 0mins vs seige tank cost?
maliceee
Profile Joined August 2010
United States634 Posts
September 27 2010 19:39 GMT
#1535
On September 27 2010 21:58 foxmeep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2010 13:10 Chronicle wrote:
On September 27 2010 08:37 Gackt_ wrote:
On September 27 2010 06:11 aztrorisk wrote:
I think they should give zerg a new unit.



I actually agree with this.

Cuz Zerg got only 9 units that can be used while attacking and do damage (I dont count queen obviously..)
Zergling, Baneling, Roach, Hydra, Infestor, Mutalisk, Corrupt, Broodlord, Ultras
(yeah Im counting the useless and slow Hydra...even though it cant move outside the creep...)


Terran is sitting with 11 units that can attack.
Marine, Marauder, Ghost, Reaper, Hellion, Banshee, Viking, Battlecruiser, Tanks, Thor, Raven



Protoss got 12 units that can be used while attacking.
Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, Immortal, Collosus, Dark Templar, High Templar, Archon, Voidray, Phoenix, Carrier, Mothership.


This is one of the major reasons why Zerg cant do shit early game, they dont have enough units/options, it's a fact. This suprises me still..I dont think people realize what 1-2 units extra could've done for the Zerg..


edit:
notice how flexible the terran and protoss units are aswell compared to the zerg..the other races can get away from a battle easier than zerg..just saying.




1 - High Templar cannot attack, that brings it down to 11 units for protoss
2 - Mothership hardly counts, that brings it down to 10
3 - Queens are a staple zerg unit, that brings them up to 10.
5 - Infestors can pop Infested Terrans, that brings them up to 11

Also zerg is alot more flexable than protoss as they can spawn a mass of new tech near instantly provided they got the larvae. Also zerg have the same earlygame options the other races have, technically they have more because of Queens.

Z T1 = ling / Roach / Bane
T T1 = Marine / Mara / Reaper
P T1 = Zealot / Sentry / Stalker

So what are you smoking? Zerg do not need anything new and neither does Protoss for that matter, they just need it so what they have is as useful as a Terrans arsenal.


LOL, you can't even count to 5 dude how can you count units up to 11?

Edit: I've been all for it since beta, I really want to see the creep mechanic changed/removed. Zerg needs to play more like it did in BW.


HAHA, i didn't catch that.

Chronicle, I gotta say that was one of the dumbest things I've ever read.
thehitman
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1105 Posts
September 27 2010 22:58 GMT
#1536
This is almost tragic, what next? All we going to see is TvT?
Blizzard needs to fix Zerg and fix them fast.

They can't be saying there is no Zerg imbalance, when all top Zerg players are switching, whining and loosing all the time.
cnas
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden640 Posts
September 27 2010 23:00 GMT
#1537
On September 28 2010 01:29 wxwx wrote:
when is the whining here gonna stop.

My estimation: By the end of this year.
One more game, bro's!
SlyinZ
Profile Joined August 2010
France199 Posts
September 27 2010 23:20 GMT
#1538
A blizzard boss said something like:
That's not zerg that are up, its that zerg players dont know how to play.
i love blizzard humor...or not
St. Fu
Profile Joined August 2010
United States75 Posts
September 27 2010 23:23 GMT
#1539
We need an entire damn board for the zergs to go QQ on. Its getting old folks.
Mosin
Profile Joined September 2010
United States7 Posts
September 28 2010 00:26 GMT
#1540
On September 27 2010 09:02 KaiserJohan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2010 08:14 Honeybadger wrote:
On September 27 2010 02:10 LG)Sabbath wrote:
for drops... spore crawlers?


Way too weak a unit. only worth it to counter banshee harass. Nothing else.


God forbid the race with the most map control (OL positioning, creep, xelnaga twrs) and most mobility (muta/ling) should be able to spot and react to drops!

P would have a harder time than Z stopping drops.



Maybe you should have tried zerg beforehand, so I didn't have to register.
Medivac comes out before muta. Otherwise zergs may have played Kulas, Delta and LT more.

So what you have is lings + roaches + queen.
Hellion drop? gg lings.
MM ball sniping queen? hello banshee.
mara drop? gg roaches and hatchery.

Mix of three? well I don't know. It looks like cool hasn't found answer to that yet. Maybe you can help him out.
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