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On September 24 2010 10:04 Titan107 wrote:
The hatred on this thread just shows the stupidity of the community. If 1 person were to defend zerg (myself), he will be flamed to high hell for not following the general I YELL THE LOUDEST consensus.
I enjoy playing the race at 1650+ and dont give a fuck what anyone says about the race because it is not weak. Take your shitty mechanics and let the professionals be professionals, and yourself be the casual you are. Stop making excuses for your lack of skill.
I wish there were more people like you out there, truly, but I care about this game as an esport, and at that level it seems. . . off. I don't listen to anecdotal experience. I don't listen to people saying "This is why it is broken." I don't care about game design. All that matters to me is what I see when I watch a game, and while it isn't as bad as most people thing, it's still pretty damn awful.
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On September 24 2010 09:13 MavercK wrote:
then you have a tier 2 caster unit. HT/Ghost/Infestor they all have some sort of ranged damage spell (storm, emp, fungal(yes i know emp only does shields but it's used in the same way, against zerg you have snipe anyway) again these abilities and units all remain different but at the same time very similar. fitting the same role as one another.
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HT is t3
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On September 24 2010 10:02 bpro wrote:![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/i2tA2.jpg)
Lmao. These CSI redos are usually pretty lame, but the delivery was impeccable here.
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Bashiok strikes back!
What would you like me to say in that thread? He doesn't ask any questions, he doesn't propose any intent for open dialogue. It's a personal take on the state of balance. A proposal of self thought.
I could jump in there and spout something lame like "We're continuing to look at all venues of balance and hope to address any issues as we see them blah blah blah blah...
On custom maps in the ladder pool:
It's something that's been discussed before but it's been a while. I'll see if I can't get an update and more specific reasoning on why this would or wouldn't happen. If I remember correctly though I don't believe there was any direct opposition to doing it.
On Crossrealm play:
As our Australia and New Zealand players were a part of the North America region in all our other titles, it made sense to open the choice up for them first and foremost. We're continuing to work toward a global Battle.net. This is a first step.
Show nested quote +just a few days ago one of your blues told us that you guys didn't balance the game around tournaments. They're definitely helpful in building cases that certain changes should be made, but we take information from many sources and try to make as informed a decision as possible.
Oh sure, but balance generally happens from the top down.
We're well aware of the concerns on balance, if we're not in direct contact with pro players we keep a careful eye on what they say and do. I know balance changes are planned, I've heard of some specific changes for the next patch. I can't talk about them yet. Soon.
Hooray! Bashiok is honestly the best.
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On September 24 2010 10:07 FlamingTurd wrote:
Honestly at this point it is just shocking for Z loving players how crazy the matchups are. Z has been kicked in the nuts too many times and it's really disheartening. The pros r all agreeing yet so little is being done on Blizzard's part after so long...
It's been almost two months. Starcraft has been out for 12 years. This is a very small part in the life cycle of this game, but it might be the most important part.
Oh sure, but balance generally happens from the top down.
That is one of the most reassuring things I've ever heard in my life.
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Hmm now this is pretty annoying. I don't like how people just randomly jumped on medivac imba. Many of the claims against terran seemed pretty grounded in the early game. 5 rax reaper, bunkering, lack of scouting, whatever. I thought everyone was agreeing with each other because they had played many games against these strategies and were sharing their understanding. Now we get to a freaking late game problem and people are agreeing as if they have gone through this exact situation many many times.
Number of times I have played against multiple drops in a zvt? 0. Number of times I have played against multiple drops against terran ever? Once against stalife when I played him PvT. Why? Because most terrans are so fucking bad they can't handle a clicking d twice for two drop locations. Probably 60% of tvzs don't make it out of early game due to the terrans options (this is just a guess). It has been quite some time since I lost a late game zvt because the terrans are so bad at it. So where is all this hate for medivacs coming from? From cool I can understand. He is playing against the tip top terrans that have A level brood war mechanics.
Now I'm understanding why other races get kind of pissed when zerg swarms start bursting out in tears. They are crying over shit that they haven't even fought against.
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On September 24 2010 09:13 MavercK wrote:
my thoughts on zerg are this
starcraft 1 the races felt VERY different. each had a far more varied style of play.
i feel like in starcraft 2 they ended up making the races too similar but then still tried to keep them varied. if you get what i mean?
for example.
Marauder/Roach/Stalker.
these units just seem very similar. sure they have varying statistics and different abilities. but they basically serve the same role for all. a high hp unit with average ranged damage. sure the roach beats the stalker pretty one sided but they still remain in that role.
If not upgraded, then they are similar. Once Stalkers gets blink, Roaches move burrow, Marauders slow, then they aren't that similar and can be used for different situations.
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On September 24 2010 10:02 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:00 tacrats wrote:On September 24 2010 09:46 Half wrote:
How does a less mobile zerg with stronger units, a more versatile and more mobile terran, and a protoss that remains similar but with added, options, result in a game that is intrinsically not balance able?
because terran got more mobile, their units got more hp, had two very essential units combined into one (medevac), can tech fast and unlock units the fastest due to techlab swaps, terran has insane range on mostly all units and dont have to upgrade marine range like in sc1, got better defences in the planetary fortress and the lolsalvage bunkers.... while zerg got less mobile beyond making it even and are now the least mobile off creep, didnt get more hp or armor except for the roach which has garbage range and sucks vs all T1.5, lost pre-lair anti air, lost the best unit to hold off pushes and defend expansions... i can go on all day .... lol...You really don't understand it. Those literally have nothing to do with why the matchup cannot be balanced. Show nested quote +
Your definition of skill may be different from mine. In general, I think Zerg require the most attention and are the least forgiving. Which in turn, are considered "skill" for me. For example, Chrono Boost, MULE and spawn larvae/creep tumor. It's OK to miss chrono boosts and mules, you can always come back to them later and either mass them with pretty much no downside, where as if a zerg player misses his spawn larvae by even a few seconds.. it can be devastating. On top of spawning larvae, a zerg also has to be attentive at spreading creep tumors, otherwise he gets harassed too hard or ends up being too slow. Things like having the hardest time scouting, not having any openers until you get a general idea of what your opponent is doing, etc. I mean you take a look around tl.net and you read things like "zerg need to have at least 1 base more than their opponent", or things like "a 1200 pt zerg = a 1500 pt terran", these things generally hold true.
I don't mean zerg are the easiest race to play, I'm saying they offer the least expressions of skill. Zerg skill is too much oriented around not screwing up. They have little room for exceptional play. And yes, T is op, etc etc, but if you look at Morrows reaper play against Idra at IEM, even if you disregarded imbalance-Morrows reaper control was exceptional. Idra is a very good player, I'd argue among the top five in the world, but if you look at zerg, they have very few ways to express there skill, beyond playing a solid macro game and good strategic decisions.
you've hit the nail on the head. a zerg player can only do so much to defend himself, the "defending" skill gap is pretty much reached by the top zerg players now. the problem is that we can't really do anything to pull ourselves ahead. we don't have any way to do fancy micro in fights. we don't have any unit to effectively harass the enemies base / economy (mutas are easily counterfeited), there is simply no tool for zerg that really rewards all the top players like idra for their skill.
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The problem with balancing is that Blizzard don't really have the luxury of time that BW used to have..
SCII now has so much exposure, so much money and professional conduct going into it, that it cannot simply 'wait one month and do small nudges' or 'wait 18 months to overhaul the massive gameplay changes.' True, a LOT of the real problems with the zerg race ( like the horrible lack of options and openings ) cannot be solved without an expansion, but there are still ways to reduce the problems. Like it or not, Blizzard has to do something relatively large in regards to the issues with zerg, quickly or risk damage to the SCII community.
First post by the way. :p
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On September 24 2010 09:51 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 09:49 MavercK wrote:On September 24 2010 09:46 Half wrote:On September 24 2010 09:40 MavercK wrote:On September 24 2010 09:37 Half wrote:
sadly no patch will fix my issues with the game other than a complete rework of the entire game. which i also dont think will happen. even after expansions i think the diversity of the races will still suffer.
Look I know you probably think your really special, but providing a little bit of evidence or support for your statements generally helps those who are less intelligent to better understand your enlightenment. my post beforehand? as im currently the maker of a starcraft 1 remake mod i've spent alot of time comparing numbers between starcraft 1 and 2. oh didnt see that.
i think zergs weakness stems from this. They just are not supposed to work like this. starcraft 1 had fairly clearly defined roles for each race.
Terran was not really hardcore turtling but they had very strong defensive capabilities with siege tanks, bunkers and turrets.
Zerg favored mass expanding and fast moving but cheap and weak units.
Protoss had a very hard hitting army. high health. high armor. fairly slow moving army.
in starcraft 2 they seemed to look at
Terran basically had mobility and harassment added to their options.
Protoss i can't really give my opinion they dont seem very different except for faster reinforcement of their armies with forward pylons and warp gates.
Zerg had alot of their mobility removed in exchange for units with alot more hp and armor
Thats a criticism against SC2 design. One I kind of share (but disagree with some key points). But it has very little to do with how the races cannot be balanced. i just dont think zerg will work without proper diversity. to sum up my post in 1 sentance What roles do you think zerg is missing that make the mu unbalance able? I don't mean to be overly argumentative, I'm just saying your making an extremely broad claim, and broad claims usually should come with substantiated evidence.
i'd really like to reply to you but i guess im just not as intelligent as i think i am and cannot put my thoughts into a paragraph that makes sense.
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Balancing the game is hard true, but why not try their best. If they make mistake, the worst thing is Zerg will become overpowered. Why not let the Zerg players have their days when Terran has been OP for very long.
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On September 24 2010 10:15 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 09:51 Half wrote:On September 24 2010 09:49 MavercK wrote:On September 24 2010 09:46 Half wrote:On September 24 2010 09:40 MavercK wrote:On September 24 2010 09:37 Half wrote:
sadly no patch will fix my issues with the game other than a complete rework of the entire game. which i also dont think will happen. even after expansions i think the diversity of the races will still suffer.
Look I know you probably think your really special, but providing a little bit of evidence or support for your statements generally helps those who are less intelligent to better understand your enlightenment. my post beforehand? as im currently the maker of a starcraft 1 remake mod i've spent alot of time comparing numbers between starcraft 1 and 2. oh didnt see that.
i think zergs weakness stems from this. They just are not supposed to work like this. starcraft 1 had fairly clearly defined roles for each race.
Terran was not really hardcore turtling but they had very strong defensive capabilities with siege tanks, bunkers and turrets.
Zerg favored mass expanding and fast moving but cheap and weak units.
Protoss had a very hard hitting army. high health. high armor. fairly slow moving army.
in starcraft 2 they seemed to look at
Terran basically had mobility and harassment added to their options.
Protoss i can't really give my opinion they dont seem very different except for faster reinforcement of their armies with forward pylons and warp gates.
Zerg had alot of their mobility removed in exchange for units with alot more hp and armor
Thats a criticism against SC2 design. One I kind of share (but disagree with some key points). But it has very little to do with how the races cannot be balanced. i just dont think zerg will work without proper diversity. to sum up my post in 1 sentance What roles do you think zerg is missing that make the mu unbalance able? I don't mean to be overly argumentative, I'm just saying your making an extremely broad claim, and broad claims usually should come with substantiated evidence. i'd really like to reply to you but i guess im just not as intelligent as i think i am and cannot put my thoughts into a paragraph that makes sense.
That might have been the best counterargument I've ever heard. "What do you mean? That's an awful broad statement." "I'm an idiot, excuse me."
On September 24 2010 10:20 biskit wrote:
Balancing the game is hard true, but why not try their best. If they make mistake, the worst thing is Zerg will become overpowered. Why not let the Zerg players have their days when Terran has been OP for very long.
Because that's the most backwards mentality that could ever exist.
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On September 24 2010 10:20 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:15 MavercK wrote:On September 24 2010 09:51 Half wrote:On September 24 2010 09:49 MavercK wrote:On September 24 2010 09:46 Half wrote:On September 24 2010 09:40 MavercK wrote:On September 24 2010 09:37 Half wrote:
sadly no patch will fix my issues with the game other than a complete rework of the entire game. which i also dont think will happen. even after expansions i think the diversity of the races will still suffer.
Look I know you probably think your really special, but providing a little bit of evidence or support for your statements generally helps those who are less intelligent to better understand your enlightenment. my post beforehand? as im currently the maker of a starcraft 1 remake mod i've spent alot of time comparing numbers between starcraft 1 and 2. oh didnt see that.
i think zergs weakness stems from this. They just are not supposed to work like this. starcraft 1 had fairly clearly defined roles for each race.
Terran was not really hardcore turtling but they had very strong defensive capabilities with siege tanks, bunkers and turrets.
Zerg favored mass expanding and fast moving but cheap and weak units.
Protoss had a very hard hitting army. high health. high armor. fairly slow moving army.
in starcraft 2 they seemed to look at
Terran basically had mobility and harassment added to their options.
Protoss i can't really give my opinion they dont seem very different except for faster reinforcement of their armies with forward pylons and warp gates.
Zerg had alot of their mobility removed in exchange for units with alot more hp and armor
Thats a criticism against SC2 design. One I kind of share (but disagree with some key points). But it has very little to do with how the races cannot be balanced. i just dont think zerg will work without proper diversity. to sum up my post in 1 sentance What roles do you think zerg is missing that make the mu unbalance able? I don't mean to be overly argumentative, I'm just saying your making an extremely broad claim, and broad claims usually should come with substantiated evidence. i'd really like to reply to you but i guess im just not as intelligent as i think i am and cannot put my thoughts into a paragraph that makes sense. That might have been the best counterargument I've ever heard. "What do you mean? That's an awful broad statement." "I'm an idiot, excuse me."
I'll be honest it takes a lot of balls to to concede an argument lol, let alone post about conceding it. So no hard feelings MavercK. :p
Because that's the most backwards mentality that could ever exist.
Yeah, I agree. As much as I hate Zerg UP right now, I think constantly having a FOTM race would just be even worse for the games competitive future.
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On September 24 2010 10:12 kNyTTyM wrote:
Hmm now this is pretty annoying. I don't like how people just randomly jumped on medivac imba. Many of the claims against terran seemed pretty grounded in the early game. 5 rax reaper, bunkering, lack of scouting, whatever. I thought everyone was agreeing with each other because they had played many games against these strategies and were sharing their understanding. Now we get to a freaking late game problem and people are agreeing as if they have gone through this exact situation many many times.
Number of times I have played against multiple drops in a zvt? 0. Number of times I have played against multiple drops against terran ever? Once against stalife when I played him PvT. Why? Because most terrans are so fucking bad they can't handle a clicking d twice for two drop locations. Probably 60% of tvzs don't make it out of early game due to the terrans options (this is just a guess). It has been quite some time since I lost a late game zvt because the terrans are so bad at it. So where is all this hate for medivacs coming from? From cool I can understand. He is playing against the tip top terrans that have A level brood war mechanics.
Now I'm understanding why other races get kind of pissed when zerg swarms start bursting out in tears. They are crying over shit that they haven't even fought against.
This thread isn't about imbalance on the average forumgoer's 1200-1400 diamond ladder matches. We're talking about imbalance on the top tier of players (where it actually matters). The fact that a strategy is difficult to do for a regular player doesn't mean that it's not imbalanced.
I've seen at least 5 top level games (including one today in viking cup) where a terran simply made 4-5 dropships, split them into two groups, filled them with marauders and just rofldropped all over a zerg hatcheries. By the time a zerg can defend, marauders have already killed off the hatch and the game's already over.
I don't have to fight a 320 lb wrestler myself to know that someone just like me will probably lose in that fight.
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On September 24 2010 10:12 kNyTTyM wrote:
Hmm now this is pretty annoying. I don't like how people just randomly jumped on medivac imba. Many of the claims against terran seemed pretty grounded in the early game. 5 rax reaper, bunkering, lack of scouting, whatever. I thought everyone was agreeing with each other because they had played many games against these strategies and were sharing their understanding. Now we get to a freaking late game problem and people are agreeing as if they have gone through this exact situation many many times.
Number of times I have played against multiple drops in a zvt? 0. Number of times I have played against multiple drops against terran ever? Once against stalife when I played him PvT. Why? Because most terrans are so fucking bad they can't handle a clicking d twice for two drop locations. Probably 60% of tvzs don't make it out of early game due to the terrans options (this is just a guess). It has been quite some time since I lost a late game zvt because the terrans are so bad at it. So where is all this hate for medivacs coming from? From cool I can understand. He is playing against the tip top terrans that have A level brood war mechanics.
Now I'm understanding why other races get kind of pissed when zerg swarms start bursting out in tears. They are crying over shit that they haven't even fought against.
The root cause of this problem though is the way that zerg are designed. Every zerg player can imagine themselves in this situation because they know how they have to play to have a chance of winning.
"Survive and expand until Tier 3" is the zerg mantra. Because this is necessary, and every zerg has lost to a single drop at some stage or another, it's quite easy to imagine losing to a mutli-drop scenario.
If you have to be on 3-4 bases and T3 tech to win, if you lose even one expansion mid-game you are behind. Drops have always been difficult for most zerg players to defend at all levels.
Most zerg players are frustrated by being forced into one style of play (macro) or going all-in with a baneling bust/roach rush/6 pool style strategy. The risk in these builds is disproportionate to the risk in a proxy starport cheese/banshee rush/4 gate cheese build. Every time a pro complains about anything it is seen as an opportunity for zerg players to voice their frustrations with the game.
The problems really stem back to Blizzard not providing well balanced macro mechanics. I have been thinking recently that spawn larva should be nerfed to two larva, but all early game zerg units buffed severely. This would nerf zerg macroing but make them strong enough to not have to worry that a single timing push will ruin them. It would also close the difficulty of play at lower skill levels, while keeping the rewards for solid macro at the highest levels.
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The problems really stem back to Blizzard not providing well balanced macro mechanics. I have been thinking recently that spawn larva should be nerfed to two larva, but all early game zerg units buffed severely. This would nerf zerg macroing but make them strong enough to not have to worry that a single timing push will ruin them. It would also close the difficulty of play at lower skill levels, while keeping the rewards for solid macro at the highest levels.
That has zero to do with why zerg is underpowered. Honestly, I'm assuming your a mid level player, if you play Terran at that level they will be just as hard. They have very rigid production capabilities which needs to be constantly macro-managed and expanded while multitasking, otherwise you fall severely behind and cannot keep up with toss and zergs army, even if you have the moneys.
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On September 24 2010 10:24 smegged wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:12 kNyTTyM wrote:
Hmm now this is pretty annoying. I don't like how people just randomly jumped on medivac imba. Many of the claims against terran seemed pretty grounded in the early game. 5 rax reaper, bunkering, lack of scouting, whatever. I thought everyone was agreeing with each other because they had played many games against these strategies and were sharing their understanding. Now we get to a freaking late game problem and people are agreeing as if they have gone through this exact situation many many times.
Number of times I have played against multiple drops in a zvt? 0. Number of times I have played against multiple drops against terran ever? Once against stalife when I played him PvT. Why? Because most terrans are so fucking bad they can't handle a clicking d twice for two drop locations. Probably 60% of tvzs don't make it out of early game due to the terrans options (this is just a guess). It has been quite some time since I lost a late game zvt because the terrans are so bad at it. So where is all this hate for medivacs coming from? From cool I can understand. He is playing against the tip top terrans that have A level brood war mechanics.
Now I'm understanding why other races get kind of pissed when zerg swarms start bursting out in tears. They are crying over shit that they haven't even fought against. The root cause of this problem though is the way that zerg are designed. Every zerg player can imagine themselves in this situation because they know how they have to play to have a chance of winning. "Survive and expand until Tier 3" is the zerg mantra. Because this is necessary, and every zerg has lost to a single drop at some stage or another, it's quite easy to imagine losing to a mutli-drop scenario. If you have to be on 3-4 bases and T3 tech to win, if you lose even one expansion mid-game you are behind. Drops have always been difficult for most zerg players to defend at all levels. Most zerg players are frustrated by being forced into one style of play (macro) or going all-in with a baneling bust/roach rush/6 pool style strategy. The risk in these builds is disproportionate to the risk in a proxy starport cheese/banshee rush/4 gate cheese build. Every time a pro complains about anything it is seen as an opportunity for zerg players to voice their frustrations with the game. The problems really stem back to Blizzard not providing well balanced macro mechanics. I have been thinking recently that spawn larva should be nerfed to two larva, but all early game zerg units buffed severely. This would nerf zerg macroing but make them strong enough to not have to worry that a single timing push will ruin them. It would also close the difficulty of play at lower skill levels, while keeping the rewards for solid macro at the highest levels.
That sounds a lot like Brood War minus Scourge. What is the air superiority unit of zerg without scourge? Why, it's the corruptor. I feel a corruptor speed buff/cost decrease is in order.
And if you make zerg units stronger, then you might as well call them Terran or Protoss units, and be done with it. You lose the feel of Zerg if you do that.
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Zerg really need scourge. Medivacs would be so much less effective mid and late game.
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On September 24 2010 09:51 MythicalMage wrote:
Also of note: Zerg still needs more units to win, but units cost more supply, and the supply cap hasn't increased. Zerg can't really "mass" anything, and their racial identity is somewhat lost in the crossfire. This isn't about the roach supply, if anything that fits with everything else. This is about the hydralisk supply, and the mutalisk supply, and the infestor supply and the ultra supply, and pretty much everything else other than the drone and the zergling.
so true, people usually look at only one aspect that zerg lack, but in reality there's many aspects that need to be taken in context before drawing conclusions.
the zerg race is really expensive gas-wise, which forces zerg players to expand early and make themselves even weaker.
1 base zerg is a little better for early game (ONLY), but you still can't attack anyone, you will only be able to defend your base and nothing more.
mid-game is even more terrible than early game because this is the time when T and P have the options of making so many diverse armies, employ different tactics, and most of all, use really strong units to which the counters are various tech trees in the zerg arsenal...
people expect zerg to be a reactionary race but they don't really give you the time to react to anything properly:
"oh cool, my opponent is going fast banshees, let me upgrade to lair, plop down a spire, and make mutas, it will only take an hour"
i think the worst problem right now is the fact that T and P control when, where, and how a fight happens. there are no similar-leveled units in the zerg arsenal that force the other races to counter them.
marauders have ridiculous damage and range against all T1 units, as well as superior armor/hp (stalkers, zealots, zerglings, banelings, roaches, hydras(T2 even)) as well as double ridiculous damage against armored.........
..............fuck writing
man, it just feels depressing to write about this, i'm done
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On September 24 2010 02:13 Odds wrote:
This is really sad- FruitSeller is one of my favorite players to watch. Hopefully Blizzard is paying attention.
No its not
edit : blizard is way too stuborn for some reason , in their games - although spectacular - they have been obvious imbalances from wow to frozen throne some have never been adressed even yet .
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EPT
