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On September 23 2010 02:20 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
The difference is that inject larvae requires the player to make a choice and take an action. They could use that energy for something else like planting a creep tumor or transfuse. The clock only provides information. It's no different than seeing how much gas is left in a geyser. The clock doesn't take any action or make a decision for the player, and it doesn't have noises or settable alarms. You can look at your queen's energy any time you want to see if it's time for larvae.
That's a fair point. But I'm just talking about pros vs cons. To me, cons outweight pros here, especially considering it's not really standard at all either (most games don't even have the option). That you disagree is completely fine, but arguing that it's good because it's gonna be super useful and help people improve quicker is not really convincing at all.
Using your logic, the supply display in the upper right could be considered too helpful to n00bs. Really, shouldn't players keep track of how many units they have and make sure they have enough pylons or whatever without a helper to tell them when they're close to being blocked?
Again, you can't use examples to prove my point wrong, because I'm only saying these things are not necessarily good all the time. No exemple can deny that. This is pretty basic logic.
Well I guess this whole discussion is going nowhere anyway. We'll just see what kind of impact it has (especially later on when standard builds will be figured out).
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I agree that the argument is going nowhere, and my own inexperience makes me a lousy judge, but I'm going to get in a few final points because that's how Internet arguments work (sorry, I don't make the rules).
1) I think you underestimate how much most players suck. I'm betting the clock will not significantly help anyone below diamond, (about 95% of players are below diamond), because their own builds (and their opponents) are not that tight at all.
2) Because the clock will make it somewhat easier to exploit/defend well known timings, the very best players will have new opportunities to distinguish themselves by exploiting novel or unpredictable timings.
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I actually think ur absolutely wrong CaptainFwiffo. I believe that the clock is merely going to affect the very low level of play. Players in silver league who can't seem to stop a fast muta build will read a forum that says MUTAS COME EARLIEST AT 4:30 SO MAKE TURRETS!!. All of a sudden lower league games won't end in "oh you got DT's and I died," but instead drag out a bit more.
I agree with this change because it will at least help out the lowest level of play whereas the higher level of play will remain almost unchanged. Good players are looking at food counts or remaining gas on first geyser or setting up key timings such as, "when my tech lab on my factory finishes is the earliest they could set up a spire so I will scan or make turrets."
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On September 22 2010 02:44 Headshot wrote:
I don't see it being allowed in tournaments, and that's a good thing.
And all tournamets are "off-line" to check it?
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Definitely will help zerg who can't remember to spawn larvae.
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On September 22 2010 02:19 TehForce wrote:
I think i won't use it. Its useful so long the enemy does standard builds and perhaps certain triggers like 4:30 is the absolut first time a banshee could come (made this time up!). But i think when people focus to much on the ingame clock they will mess up when the enemy does sth out of the norm or changes little details to his build....
Well we'll see, perhaps i'm wrong and evrybody has now an easier time to find timing attacks....
Waiting for the first attack timers popping up: "Xlasl's 8:25 Timing Attack Strategy" and stuff like that
I agree to an extent if in your example the fastest a banshee can come is 4:30 and a player should not say o a banshee did not come right on time that means I don't have to worry about banshees.
Instead say O its almost 4:30 I should probably scout him to see if that is a possibility. Say its currently 4:00 and as zerg you already have your main and natural up with 2 queens. You scout and say O he has 2 starports with tech labs I should probably to be safe pump out a queen out of my lair and hatchery. Or alternatively you scout at 4:00 and see that he hasn't even built a factory well you know that banshees will not be coming anytime soon.
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top players know timings without a clock, and maybe they will rely on the clock, maybe they won't, but you would have never noticed the difference either way. I think it's a nice training tool, but I'm not sure if it wil lcome into effect in regular games or if people will even have it turned on. There are so many random variables that get people thrown off track that it doesn't matter. Timings have always existed and you know when they are coming based off of your own build times. So instead of saying "usually when i build x building, this unit comes" you can do it with an actual clock. Not much of a difference. Probably different players will prefer doing it different ways.
No reason to fuss until you can see the actual effect.
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an in-game clock makes the game less dynamic and more predictable
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It is annoying that the in-game clock still uses normal game speed instead of real time. So when one minute has passed according to the clock only around 43 seconds have passed in real time.
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Don't think its going to make a big difference at higher levels, but it can definitely help newer players learn timings. The downside is the new player may focus on the clock and timings to exclusion of more important things, like scouting.
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kinda helps people with build orders. Maybe, BO's will have times on them now
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On September 22 2010 02:17 Piski wrote:
Why make a completely new thread for this feature :o
because it's kind of a big deal. Why make a retarded post that offers nothing to the topic... oh yea, forgot my face :o.
This is something that people have been asking for, for a long time. I'm very used to the timings in sc2 right now that i know it's pretty useless for me to turn the timer on so i wont, but some people might like it.
The strongest factor i see with the timer is that if a T walls off you can use the timer to give you a good estimation on when they could have banshees assuming you're too bad to scout properly (lol zerg).
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On September 23 2010 05:12 Craze wrote:
Don't think its going to make a big difference at higher levels, but it can definitely help newer players learn timings. The downside is the new player may focus on the clock and timings to exclusion of more important things, like scouting.
meh really doesn't make a difference.
Previously it was "scout at 10/x."
Now it would be "scout at x:xx"
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this would be like a quakelive player having the armor spawn timers on his screen
totally a bad idea if it is allowed in ladder & tournaments...
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I wanna see an in game clock.
One that shows the actual time. I feel this is more useful...
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I hope they will remove it ASAP, It makes it easier for the average people to catch up on higher level players without really doing anything special, just watching a clock. That's not good at all.
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On September 23 2010 06:27 starcraft911 wrote:
The strongest factor i see with the timer is that if a T walls off you can use the timer to give you a good estimation on when they could have banshees assuming you're too bad to scout properly (lol zerg).
This comment also ain't ehlping much. A watchtower, a few marines and no unupgraded ovie will see anything. I've sacced enough ovies, thanks a lot.
That said, this can really help with defensive timings. Not so much on the offense, since there you should really be supply- and unit-counting but when you try stuff, having a clock as ruler against timing pushes helps a lot.
Maybe it will help creative play, as right now every shift in the build messed up you unit and supply counting completely, really making it difficult at times where you are right now in the timeline.
I'm really curious what Day[9] says about this, I'm certain his opinion will be held in high regard.
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I like it, you can estimate upgrades and stuff, like today I destroyed the tech lab of a factory 2 times before my opponent could get his siege mode. I like it, a lot 
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
On September 22 2010 02:18 MorroW wrote:
it sounds like fun for the casuals and good for the ppl who try to improve
top wont get helped or need this since they have other methods to see timing in the game than a silly clock with numbers on them ^^
I think Korean pros timing their builds with stopwatches and all that would disagree with this, and a clock is way more reliable than a supplycount as well.
I kind of like the clock since it's basically *the easiest way* of keeping track of timings, since supplycounts can fluctuate slightly based on all kinds of random influences, and instinct, well, let's just say a clock is usually more accurate.
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On September 23 2010 06:34 Jameser wrote:
this would be like a quakelive player having the armor spawn timers on his screen
totally a bad idea if it is allowed in ladder & tournaments...
Actually, it's much more like a Quake player having a game timer on his screen and mentally using that to help himself time armor spawns.
....which is exactly what they do.
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EPT
