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On September 22 2010 20:00 Grummler wrote:
Thats wrong. If you want to use a clock while playing, no matter if on your desk or installed as programm on your pc, you can use it. LEGAL. Cause it does nothing with your sc2.
That will never be allowed in a proper LAN or any decent offline competitive environment really.
edit: well, now that probably could, though.
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Nice to see this implemented. I actually had suggested this about a month ago on the b.net forums. Never made sense to me why we had to keep using supply and other little steps to do certain timing attacks, while a simple clock would do a much better job.
Not to mention how it makes it possible for us to know exactly when a chronoboost ends, when it's time for larva inject, so we can chrono or larva right away. This will allow for much more refined playing from everyone. Will only be a matter of time till people start using time as key points in matchups, which imo, will make it much more interesting.
On September 22 2010 02:31 fabiano wrote:
heh?
Now I wonder if BOs will be listed as following:
0:00 probe
0:17 probe
0:34 probe
0:56 pylon
1:10 probe
1:27 probe & chrono boost nexus
1:44 probe
2:03 probe
2:20 gateway
etc...
instead of the good old
9/10 pylon
14/19 gateway
ps: timings were made up.
Probably not because that's much harder and not better. What we can see is times for attacks. For instance going 3 rax, MM, with stim, and aim to make an attack at 5:10 (or whatever it is), which could be when your stim finishes.
This can also work as a way for people to know how well they're doing the build, if they're on time or late, so they can adapt accordingly.
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The clock will be a great help, even for the most pro gamers. Image you have a build, and due to an early attack or scouting info you need to make adjustments. So an assumption like: " when I finish my armory he should have X units of Y" will fail, because your build was screwed up. But if you know the timings you can be pretty sure what is/could be going on.
The leet approach of "Oh, I am so pro/leet, I have the perfect time sense, and know exactly whats going on, I even know the current time in korea without a clock" is not necessary. It's the same like the shift queue ability. "Oh, I am so pro/leet I dont need shift-queue because I have 5k apm, and my second-name is round-robin the multitasking god". The gametime is obviously a good thing to know. It's a hint and taking a look at it might be helpful. I am sure many players will profit from it. Those who rely on their inner sense can still do this, but dont bash on other's how noob they are because they use a very useful tool. In the end we all try to be better gamers.
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I don't think it's a problem. Because it isn't the ability to see exact timings that separate the pro players from decent players. It's a combination of knowledge, mechanics, scouting, experience and connecting that scouting to potential timings and then keep up with all of the above. You wont see anyone gain hugely from a clock.
While playing most persons can even put a finger in the air and guess how long the game has lasted and be correct within a margin of 15-30 seconds in the early and mid game (where timings really matters).
This only helps people looking to get better and isn't already at a high level.
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i embrace this change and think if you use it right it can be a nice plus to your game. Things like remembering how long x takes to build and then just checking the clock from time to time will make you faster imo. Because instead of having to check a fixed object on the screen or on a hotkey or whatever requires you to do smth (press hotkey, hover over smth, center screen back at base to check for smth etc.) aka spending actions on checking for timing. I doubt that even among the top players there are many who got timing down to an extreme where they never check for anything and still always hit the exactly right timing with queing up/teching etc. The clock is always there. Like supply and gas/minerals, it requires no action (from your hands at least) to check it. Players that get this down to an intuitive level will be scary as hell i predict.
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Imo helps Zergs ALOT to rember larva inject, basically you got a free rememberer now, so you wont lose time while jumping too early to inject, or to late.
if i were zerg, i would definitely use this, because inject is the least forgiving.
(of course provides also help for p + t)
i think it wont "newby" down the game, because even if you plan out your play after the clock, the game aint that static that the terran pushs always at XXX etc.
its more interactive
all in all i appreciate it, although not sure if i'm gonna use it as toss :<
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On September 22 2010 21:46 Elefanto wrote:
Imo helps Zergs ALOT to rember larva inject, basically you got a free rememberer now, so you wont lose time while jumping too early to inject, or to late.
if i were zerg, i would definitely use this, because inject is the least forgiving.
(of course provides also help for p + t)
i think it wont "newby" down the game, because even if you plan out your play after the clock, the game aint that static that the terran pushs always at XXX etc.
its more interactive
all in all i appreciate it, although not sure if i'm gonna use it as toss :<
For chronoboost usage on some specific tech perhaps?  Imagine you're on a rush to get weapon up. 1, you can now chronoboost it perfectly till it finishes if you have enough energy and watch the time. If you chrono it at xx:20s you know every xx:20s, xx:40s, xx:00s you'll have to chrono again.
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I think it would be nice to have something solid to go on if your game has taken some weird twists and you have no idea what your opponent could be getting by now.
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Great feeling about the clock, This feature is nice.
For new players its going to be easy to improve they play faster.
For medium level players its also going to be a boost in their level.
And for Pros and schollars as Day[9] is a great tool to tweak builds, timings, guides, etc.
I was waiting for this, i was planning to use my cell phone clock to improve but having it in game is pretty sweet.
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I don't care either way, you people are way too anal.
User was warned for this post
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On September 22 2010 23:51 ArcXangel wrote:
For new players its going to be easy to improve they play faster.
For medium level players its also going to be a boost in their level.
And for Pros and schollars as Day[9] is a great tool to tweak builds, timings, guides, etc.
I really don't think improving the speed at which people improve their level of play is necessarily a good thing. That seems to be quite a common assumption in this thread. :/
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After reading about it I decided to turn it on. Took me a couple of seconds to locate it. For some reason I thought it would be in the upper part of the screen. Then after taking a quick look at it I forgot all about it and haven't even noticed it again in several games. I guess when i am trying some new builds or something that relies on timing more I'll make more of an effort to keep a look at it, but until then it is kinda meh.
I don't really see what the fuss would be about using it in competition though if it's an in game feature that everyone has access to.
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I just want to know what is the difference having a ingame clock and using lets say a stopwatch? I mean it's not like blizzard invented the concept of time. I always play with my watch on so in theory I could time all of my stuff using it.
I'm not saying that tournaments or lans should or should not allow this, that's their decision. I doubt any pro would actually base their timings on this clock.
Also I feel that this would almost even be a problem to some newer players, if they are going to blindly look at the time and think "oh it's 10min mark I should expand again". It's rare that a game goes as planned so one little harass and all of your timings are out of the windows if you only know them using that ingame clock.
I mean if using time has such a big advantages, why haven't everyone been using it in the past?
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This seems like an excellent addition to me. It will make the game more accessible for newbies (like me), and allow the pros to divert their attention and apm to more complex and interesting strategies. It is also obvious to me that the clock won't replace supply as a timing tool. The supply count gives me information about the current state of my game; how far along in my build I've come. Attacking at "x time" is meaningless if you don't have the resources to carry out the attack. Rather it will be a valuable complement; for example someone mentioned the earliest possible time certain rushes can be excecuted and things like that.
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I really don't think improving the speed at which people improve their level of play is necessarily a good thing. That seems to be quite a common assumption in this thread. :/
If helping people improve more quickly is a bad idea, then teamliquid.net is a bad idea. QED.
Tool-tips help n00bs learn hot-keys more quickly. Should they be removed? Health bars help n00bs learn how quickly unit X dies to unit Y. Should they be removed? Progress bars help n00bs quickly learn how long things take to build or upgrade. Should they be removed? Day[9]'s newbie Tuesday helps n00bs improve more quickly. Should Tuesday be removed?
A common assumption among the anti-clock faction seems to be that any feature that helps n00bs will necessary reduce the importance of skill. I don't think that's been demonstrated.
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hasn't it occured to anyone here that it's ridiculous to say 9 pylon, 12 gateway? wouldn't it be so much easier and synchronized for people to say build a pylon at 1:15. time is the same for everyone and can be understood by everyone easily, but supply can fluctuate.
people are complaining not because it is dumbing down the game. honestly, how much can a clock dumb down the game. people are afraid of change and are pissed that they have spent years giving them a feel of how much 4 minutes is.
someday, someone will complaing that we're using a laser mouse and not a mouse with a ball inside cause that's what they used when they started playing sc1.
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On September 23 2010 00:26 TheImmortal wrote:
hasn't it occured to anyone here that it's ridiculous to say 9 pylon, 12 gateway? wouldn't it be so much easier and synchronized for people to say build a pylon at 1:15. time is the same for everyone and can be understood by everyone easily, but supply can fluctuate.
people are complaining not because it is dumbing down the game. honestly, how much can a clock dumb down the game. people are afraid of change and are pissed that they have spent years giving them a feel of how much 4 minutes is.
someday, someone will complaing that we're using a laser mouse and not a mouse with a ball inside cause that's what they used when they started playing sc1.
That wouldn't be accurate because timings vary from player to player. Knowing to build a pylon after your 9th probe for a certain opening is a lot diff than gluing yourself to building it at X-time. Maybe you didn't split as well as another player, the exact timings won't be the same for everyone.
However, seeing a guy throw up a spire with a scan, and knowing the exact time he could possibly have mutas from that spire, based on a clock that is right there in game for you, may be pretty impactful.
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for me it makes sacrificing my overlords a lot less of a guess / feeling and more of a time window situation.
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On September 23 2010 00:18 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
If helping people improve more quickly is a bad idea, then teamliquid.net is a bad idea. QED.
Tool-tips help n00bs learn hot-keys more quickly. Should they be removed? Health bars help n00bs learn how quickly unit X dies to unit Y. Should they be removed? Progress bars help n00bs quickly learn how long things take to build or upgrade. Should they be removed? Day[9]'s newbie Tuesday helps n00bs improve more quickly. Should Tuesday be removed?
Good try but your logic is flawed, sir. All these things you describe are neither necessarily bad nor necessarily good (as in not having them would be terribad) for the game. You're not making any point at all there.
Let's just take a simple example:
Would an automatic "Hey Inject Larvae now now now!" sound every time your queen has 50 energy help people improve quicker? Definitely so.
Would it be good? Most likely not.
Therefore adding stuff that helps people improve quicker is not necessarily good. This is the reason we're having this thread right now.
And I personally think the one being discussed (clock) is going to make most of the "wow perfect timing" moments a lot less wowish. Which sucks, considering I already don't think SC2 has enough of these moments currently.
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The difference is that inject larvae requires the player to make a choice and take an action. They could use that energy for something else like planting a creep tumor or transfuse. The clock only provides information. It's no different than seeing how much gas is left in a geyser. The clock doesn't take any action or make a decision for the player, and it doesn't have noises or settable alarms. You can look at your queen's energy any time you want to see if it's time for larvae.
Using your logic, the supply display in the upper right could be considered too helpful to n00bs. Really, shouldn't players keep track of how many units they have and make sure they have enough pylons or whatever without a helper to tell them when they're close to being blocked?
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EPT
