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On September 22 2010 09:02 vanskater wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 08:20 Kered13 wrote:On September 22 2010 07:48 infinity2k9 wrote:
I think it takes some skill away. Imagine if Quake 3 had a timer on armour respawns... I don't know about Q3, but Quake Live has always had an in-game clock. You time armors by looking at the time you pick it up, adding/subtracting (depending on if you're using count up or count down) 25 seconds, and returning to the armor at that time. The actual challenge is doing this in the middle of everything else. So this is, in fact, exactly what Quake Live already has. he was talking about timers that counted for you
I know, but his comparison was invalid. This is a match timer, exactly like what Quake Live has always had. The item specific timers are more comparable to the progress bars on buildings, which we of course have always had.
On September 22 2010 09:22 Newguy wrote:For instance, in the recent GSL match between TLO and Hyperdub... + Show Spoiler +Hyperdub cheesed TLO with proxy barracks, and because of the scouting order TLO scouted Hyperdub last. Now, what if TLO, when not finding his opponent in the first 2 locations he scouted, could have scrolled over the remaining base at a specific time using the game clock, and guessed that a cheese was coming because no mule was dropped?
But you could already do that easily. In TvT, you can expect your opponent to drop a MULE at almost the exact same time as yourself. As Protoss or Zerg, you could easily learn a similar BO or supply based timing. So there is nothing here that couldn't be done otherwise.
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On September 22 2010 09:18 Ballistixz wrote:
whats the big deal? its no diffrent from someone playing in windows mode and having a timer/stop watch app open to check the timings for there pushes/builds. or better yet, MOST people have clocks in there room. how hard is it to check on your clock that you started a game at 8:00, and at 8:05 you make your timing push?
no big deal at all. putting a clock in game isnt going to change anything. people take stuff like this way to seriously and nitpick it to death.
Tournaments.
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Honestly I don't see it as much of an issue... yet.
I think once we get standardized builds and timings that in-game clock will come back to bite us. But for now I actually think its helpful for figuring that stuff out.
Its just one of those things that only time will tell, but I'm sure tournaments will ask that players turn it off.
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United States321 Posts
Watch this... I can actually produce an amazing reason why this new clock feature is awesome and practical... Day9 Videos... He won't show us the progress bar of replays but he can now show the timing in the games and actually refer to it without moving his banner O_O Bam Out of Left Field
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The anti clock arguments are all elitist BS.
Apart from timings for fastest possible pushes or units this clock hardly effects high end players.
You wont scout a starport going down, check the time, calculate the time of completion then keep checking the clock for timings. High level players will still use production cycles or their own buildings completion times to get their sense of timing. Because that is much easier than remembering time on a clock.
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WORKER HARASS THROW TIMING OFF.
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I will use the clock to help time spawn larva, but I think it is bad for the game. Time is something that should be gaged with the best accuracy a player can muster not a simple clock. Oh it's been 40 seconds he could have another 4 zealots warped in right now. Narrowing the gap from good to great.
[/rant]
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I think you're all over reacting to this, if someone is to follow the times exactly what happens if I simply delay my timing push then they'd figure its not coming but then 30 seconds later ohh timing push in your face wrecking your buildings.
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On September 22 2010 14:15 nihoh wrote:
WORKER HARASS THROW TIMING OFF.
How does it troll? You base time on the PRODUCTION cycle.
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I activated the clock, and I have played for about 6 hours without even remember that the clock exists LOL, it's so funny, really, I though it would be more useful but it doesn't help at all.. BTW Im a noob 1000 Diamond
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if its a pure macro style game this clock help other than that it will not help.
i guess it can help with queen injections and production cycles.
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On September 22 2010 12:01 Kered13 wrote:
But you could already do that easily. In TvT, you can expect your opponent to drop a MULE at almost the exact same time as yourself. As Protoss or Zerg, you could easily learn a similar BO or supply based timing. So there is nothing here that couldn't be done otherwise.
So because something was possible before, making it easier for everyone is automatically good for the game?
I could find about one hundred examples of why that logic doesn't work.
The main problem of this discussion is that half the people posting here apparently believe it's about whether the timer will be useful or not.
On September 22 2010 14:06 DeCoup wrote:
The anti clock arguments are all elitist BS.
Apart from timings for fastest possible pushes or units this clock hardly effects high end players.
You wont scout a starport going down, check the time, calculate the time of completion then keep checking the clock for timings. High level players will still use production cycles or their own buildings completion times to get their sense of timing. Because that is much easier than remembering time on a clock.
Not for any standard build it's not. Because again, clock timings are a LOT less dependant on your own builds. If you want to counter 5 rax reapers, you know you need to have X roaches at that specific time no matter what your build-order was. You also know you need to have your lair up before that other specific time because unless you scouted otherwise, that the earliest he can have his first cloaked banshee out (again, no matter what your own bo was).
You could do that before but you needed to stick with one build and analyse replays to check for timing correspondance. Now you'll just have to google the times of specific stuff and learn them.
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I think it's useful. You could improve your timing or just see when you should expand.
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I'm a bit torn. I like having a timer for training/making strats purposes, but I feel real games (tourneys, you can even argue ladder) shouldnt use one.
Both before and after scenarios are manageable with external factors, I guess it is a matter of preference. (eg you can use a stopwatch/program/ custom map to time things. But post 1.1, tournaments can just insist it be disabled. Both scenarios are manageable with workarounds).
All in all, it mostly affects ladder play. Depending on how you feel about it. (A lot dont take it seriously, and at best use it for tournament practice. For others, it is the highest level they will compete at, and you can argue Blizzard should keep their ladder as prestigious as possible[insert snide remarks about leagues/ratings prestige ])
Not a huge deal imo, but we'll see!
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On September 22 2010 09:38 Hrrrrm wrote:
In the end this will help everyone just like automine did to be able to focus on other more important aspects of the game. Yes timing is an important part of the game and it will still be affected by how well you harass or get harassed in a game and scout. This won't allow a scrub to jump from bronze to diamond because he now has a timer on his screen.
This is just another example of, "You damn whippersnappers have it so much easier these days, back in my day(BW) we didn't have MBS, One Control Group Syndrome, Automine, Smartcast, Smart Targeting, Auto-surround, yadda yadda" Meanwhile if these things had been in BW they would've been accepted since there was nothing to compare it to.
It was possible in BW with APM Alert and it was banned on ICCUP.
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Dunno how this thread has gone on for 13 pages, unless its just 13 pages of people agreeing without reading the thread.
If that's the case then I can do it too. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Anyone can set a timer IRL every game, anyone can run 3rd party tool to do the same thing, tons of people used this in Chaos launcher for BW.
Boxer once timed his rush or rush defense to the Terran music in game. etc
And like Plexa said on the first page, most people (even top level) won't even pay attention.
PS- Since I actually had written down the terran attack timings versus zerg, I can actually apply them to something concrete instead of just my internal chronometer.
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Does anyone have a handy list of timings for banshees, void rays (boosted), mutalisks, and i guess colossus?
I mean thats where this is going right?
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On September 22 2010 16:50 CharlieMurphy wrote:
If that's the case then I can do it too. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Anyone can set a timer IRL every game, anyone can run 3rd party tool to do the same thing, tons of people used this in Chaos launcher for BW.
What kind of argument is this? 3rd party tools are illegal. People can easily make a software that makes a "Go go SCV!" sound every 15 seconds too. But you'd never be allowed to use that in any official (offline) event. Using them online would probably go unnoticed but that's 100% cheating unless the game engine itself allows it.
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There was a thread discussing the idea of an in-game clock a while back. Same discussions still swirling around in this thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137070
At the time I thought it wouldn't lower the skill ceiling, even though it might be a boon for weaker players, and I still think that's true. I also thought that it wasn't really necessary for more experienced players and in reality wouldn't change anything. I still believe it's not at all neccessary but I've changed my mind on the latter. I think food/mineral/unit counting, build order progression, and intuition would probably get thrown out of the window in favor of the clock if it sticks around.
I don't mind it in being in bnet ladder games too much. It's fine and dandy and can be a useful training tool. I do hope it is avoided in tournaments though, as I just feel it takes away from some of the purity of the game. I don't want to watch a baseball game with batters stepping up to the plate with sophisticated equipment to keep their swing balanced, and I don't want to see SC players aided by clocks to keep their timings under control either.
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you can moan all you want but feature got into the game and knowing blizz its here to stay, and regarding tourneys, i reckon you can demand not rallying to minerals and one building per control group too ;]
all in all having clock wont change anything for decent level and up, well, actually people who start to rely on clock instead of scouting and experience will just get worse
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EPT
