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On September 22 2010 07:43 andrewwiggin wrote:
And anyway, what sort of separation between players is that in any case? If top level players suddenly can't compete with amateurs, because amateurs didn't know how to measure time in-game before, then really I think that says more about 'top level players' than anything else. What sort of 'good game sense' is the ability to count internally? Good game sense is seeing a tech building, knowing an opponent's army composition is going to be X, and knowing to counter with Y. Not counting inside one's head.
It's the separation between players who carefully analyse their own replays (and top players' ones) and those who don't really feel like doing it.
Watching the ZvT learning Day9 dailies gives an extremely good example of what kind of difference it can potentially make.
Oh. And one last thing. How much do you want to bet that progaming Korean teams (if they had this feature) would use it? Or do you really think they would just completely ignore it?
They would've most likely used it. Doesn't really mean anything though.
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The only thing this will be helpful for is measuring how long I've wasted in a game vs a BM-lift-off-all-my-buildings Terran.
Hmm, I definitely won at 16:00, and now we're at 22:00!
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Meh, I don't like it. It'll be useful for playing SC2 better but now pro players will just reach a point where they go "Well, at X minutes and Y seconds the first banshee will reach my base" assuming they recognized the build order. So if I get my extra queen at Z seconds I'll be fine.
Sure, they could before as well but it wasn't as exact and it was a tiny thing that separated the very best from the extremely good but not quite as good players. Not to mention getting a feel for timings is a lot more fun than learning 50 different fucking "at 6.30 blabla will blabla". There's nothing fun about this feature.
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On September 22 2010 07:49 vizniz wrote:
The only thing this will be helpful for is measuring how long I've wasted in a game vs a BM-lift-off-all-my-buildings Terran.
Hmm, I definitely won at 16:00, and now we're at 22:00!
'dude you should have gg'ed precisely 8 minutes and 31 seconds ago wtf'
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i guess it's for campaign ...... people should make a certain mission in a certain time for a certain achievement
other than that and maybe build order practice vs ai, i see no reason for the timer
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Players have a couple out-of-game resources they use while playing - their mental capacity to remember things and make decisions, and their physical capacity to carry out actions (APM). Top players play at the limits of their capacity, but still don't make every correct decision or carry out every possible action they'd like to make. If some in-game feature makes something easier, or more automatic, that will free up mental or physical capacity. High level players aren't going to let that capacity sit idle. They'll use that capacity to make higher-level decisions, or execute other actions (e.g. microing their forces more).
Take auto-mining for example. Yes, it made it easier for n00bs. But now that high level players didn't have to waste mental capacity and APMs sending workers to mine, they can spend that time doing other, more important things instead of busywork. They can take their game to a level that wasn't possible before.
I think the clock will have the same effect. A rising tide lifts all boats.
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It will help make all-in timing attacks in gold through low diamond less effective, as people will be more easily able to know when certain attacks can hit by, so they can be prepared.
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On September 22 2010 07:59 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
Players have a couple out-of-game resources they use while playing - their mental capacity to remember things and make decisions, and their physical capacity to carry out actions (APM). Top players play at the limits of their capacity, but still don't make every correct decision or carry out every possible action they'd like to make. If some in-game feature makes something easier, or more automatic, that will free up mental or physical capacity. High level players aren't going to let that capacity sit idle. They'll use that capacity to make higher-level decisions, or execute other actions (e.g. microing their forces more).
Take auto-mining for example. Yes, it made it easier for n00bs. But now that high level players didn't have to waste mental capacity and APMs sending workers to mine, they can spend that time doing other, more important things instead of busywork. They can take their game to a level that wasn't possible before.
I think the clock will have the same effect. A rising tide lifts all boats.
It's taking out of a part of the game though. Attention shouldbe considered a resource. How many elements do you need to take out before it's simplified enough? There's no 'level' to take the game, the battles are not going to be somehow more dynamic or more crazy strategies achieved because of this.
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For practice i think its great. Blizzard should make practice area in which timers and other helpful junk is present.
But a timer in game is too much. This is asking for the game to fall apart. SC requires GAME SENCE and without that skill factor the game just get boring if i know the 4 warp gate push is coming at minimum X time. So until then im just gonna Power Drone.
How many times have you died because you didnt do something in time? Thats part of the game and shouldn't be changed
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On September 22 2010 07:43 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +It has almost nothing to do with a way to measure build order timing. The people who are against it aren't against it because of that. The bigger issue is that it takes away one of the subtler things that separates good players from great ones by making it based on a clock, instead of good game-sense. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Timing My original point still stands. No one makes athletes measure their timing on other measures such as cycle of feet movement, or internal counts, even if that would help separate great athletes from each other. And anyway, what sort of separation between players is that in any case? If top level players suddenly can't compete with amateurs, because amateurs didn't know how to measure time in-game before, then really I think that says more about 'top level players' than anything else. What sort of 'good game sense' is the ability to count internally? Good game sense is seeing a tech building, knowing an opponent's army composition is going to be X, and knowing to counter with Y. Not counting inside one's head. Oh. And one last thing. How much do you want to bet that progaming Korean teams (if they had this feature) would use it? Or do you really think they would just completely ignore it?
First of all, the running analogy doesn't work at all. Obviously runners measure performance in time, because whoever has the better time WINS. There are no "better times" in starcraft. Times in running define performance. Build orders in starcraft are relevant to performance but they are far from defining it. There is no parallel here.
Game sense has to do with countering your opponent, but what you described is just scouting and reacting. "counting inside one's head" is, on the contrary, quite a huge part of game sense. Here, from the article I linked earlier:
"In the above example scenario, you had perfect information (you knew exactly when the Mutalisks would arrive at your base). Timing with perfect information is nothing to brag about – you can see how long it will take the enemy's forces to reach you and can prepare accordingly. Timing with limited information is much more difficult."
How much pro BW have you watched? Have you seen what a perfect timing attack looks like and how exciting and impressive it is to watch?
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How many times have you died because you didnt do something in time? Thats part of the game and shouldn't be changed
You still have to check the clock. If the clock wasn't there, you'd use food, or gas left in your geyser, or a clock on your desk, or some other source of timing information.
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On September 22 2010 07:48 infinity2k9 wrote:
I think it takes some skill away. Imagine if Quake 3 had a timer on armour respawns...
I don't know about Q3, but Quake Live has always had an in-game clock. You time armors by looking at the time you pick it up, adding/subtracting (depending on if you're using count up or count down) 25 seconds, and returning to the armor at that time. The actual challenge is doing this in the middle of everything else.
So this is, in fact, exactly what Quake Live already has.
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I think it's awesome to learn timings on ladder. But I don't think it will matter much in tourneys, as anyone who is competent will already know relative timings.
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Best thing I see for me, is that if I get rolled at a certain point in the game I know exactly when that is, and can focus on having more stuff by that point next game.
Otherwise, probably wont look at it unless my game is running over 50 minutes and i am bored.
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*Archer goes off to work on new racially unique clock mechanics*
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On September 22 2010 08:20 Kered13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 07:48 infinity2k9 wrote:
I think it takes some skill away. Imagine if Quake 3 had a timer on armour respawns... I don't know about Q3, but Quake Live has always had an in-game clock. You time armors by looking at the time you pick it up, adding/subtracting (depending on if you're using count up or count down) 25 seconds, and returning to the armor at that time. The actual challenge is doing this in the middle of everything else. So this is, in fact, exactly what Quake Live already has.
he was talking about timers that counted for you
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Pretty excited to use this to know timing windows and when I need to defend, etc.
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i have a clock on my desk anyway (who doesn't), so i don't understand all the moaning...
and nobody will suddenly rise like 500points in their ladder because of an ingame clock..
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I really don't see a difference between "____ happens at xx:xx" and "_____ happens when I have ~X of Y unit", or "___ happens when my +1 is halfway done".
Both require prior experience to know.
It's not like the clock is some magical device that automatically lets you know when to expect things. A clock without the experience to know timings is nothing more than a display of ascending numbers.
It's not amazingly useful. I feel like the people taking the "omg it lower skill ceiling!" stance are just self important egomaniacs.
Edit: grammar
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whats the big deal? its no diffrent from someone playing in windows mode and having a timer/stop watch app open to check the timings for there pushes/builds. or better yet, MOST people have clocks in there room. how hard is it to check on your clock that you started a game at 8:00, and at 8:05 you make your timing push?
no big deal at all. putting a clock in game isnt going to change anything. people take stuff like this way to seriously and nitpick it to death.
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EPT
