The "God of War", July, has officially announced that he will be moving to Starcraft 2.
July, who belonged in STX Soul, did not recontract after his contract ended at the end of August. He revealed that he will be joining a Starcraft 2 team in order to take up on another challenge. Thus, July is the second progamer, after Iron, to officially announce his move to Starcraft 2. He is the first of the three "Top Star" Progamers to officially announce the fact.
July will be joining a new Starcraft 2 team that is in the middle of creation, run by a coach who has previously coached in a Progame team before. There are other players such as Kim Song Jae, Lee Chang Hoon, and Shim So Myung, and they will have an official announcement regarding their creation sometime soon.
When asked about why he was transitioning to Starcraft 2, he said that "Because I didn't have many opportunities to play in official matches, I felt my purpose on the team diminish. I really wanted to play in a match. During this time, I got to play Starcraft 2. At the beginning, I didn't have much interest in it, but over time, I got more and more interested and soon after I decided that I wanted to be active as a gamer in Starcraft 2 as I got better at the game."
Regarding Starcraft 2's gameplay, he said that "I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original", adding that "But because I had experience playing Starcraft as a progamer, I'm getting better rapidly." He added that "I'm currently the first place in my Diamond League, and I'm over 1500 points".
Regarding his playing in the TG Sambo-Intel SC2 Open Season 2, he said that "My goal obviously is to win", and added a confident remark, saying that "I've been watching the players who has passed the preliminaries of Season 1, and I thought I could have definitely won"
Finally, July said that "There may be a lot of people who knew about this before, and there may be a lot of you who only learned about this through this article, but I am planning on being as diligent as I was when I was active as a Starcraft progamer", and adding that "While I'm now active in Starcraft 2, I am asking for my fans to continue to cheer for me just as before".
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
Kinda sad to see July not play BW anymore but he didn't really get much play-time while on STX anyway so I guess this is better for him. 'Hope to see him do well in SC2. He might not be much in BW anymore, but he is still only one of three people with a golden mouse and for that, I have a ton of respect.
This news pleases me greatly, but I really hope that July steps up his game! From the few games I've seen of him, he's certainly good, but I wouldn't put him at the very top of the Zerg pile . I want to see July completely dominate everyone in SC2!
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
This is July you are talking about here... the god damn mutha-fing 818 APM July. If July isn't gifted, I don't know who is.
Sad to see him leave BW, I'm not sure if this is financially a good idea as SC2 isn't doing very well in Korea (from what I've seen) especially since he was probably making a good salary just being on STX.
But I can understand him wanting to be under the spotlight again.
On September 10 2010 14:24 NeoLearner wrote: So will he be playing as JulyZerg or keep his new FantaPrime name? Actually, it would have to become JulyPrime, right?
Anyways, my first favorite pro-gamer joining SC2. Sad for BW but awesome for SC2! July Hwaiting!
On September 10 2010 14:24 NeoLearner wrote: So will he be playing as JulyZerg or keep his new FantaPrime name? Actually, it would have to become JulyPrime, right?
Anyways, my first favorite pro-gamer joining SC2. Sad for BW but awesome for SC2! July Hwaiting!
JulyZergPrime :D I like JulyZerg name so much more than FantaPrime x_x just rolls off the tongue better
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
The fact that you don't consider JulyZerg gifted shows your lack of knowledge. If all the best Koreans switched over it would be very difficult for any foreigner to compete. We're already seeing low-level pros switching and owning it up (just look at Tester's games). If the top pros switched (which they won't because they receive a nice paycheck from their teams that are tied to KESPA) the SC2 tourneys would look very similar to the SC:BW tourneys as far as personnel. There might be one or two foreigners who could compete at that level, like Grrr..., Elky and Legionnaire did back in the earlier days of SC:BW, but they would be far and few between.
Regarding Starcraft 2's gameplay, he said that "I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original"
What...
That might really be the case for pro-gamers. In order to differentiate yourself, you need to multi-task and do things even better than anyone else. If the delta between really good and average is slim, the really good need to work a lot harder in order to win games regularly.
An example would hypothetically be flash going to SC2. In order for flash to maintain a 70% win rate, he needs to work harder than ever since the mechanics are easier. In SC2, it will be hard for flash to win 70% of his games against someone like morrow even though we know that Flash is probably better than morrow in multi-tasking. In SC1, morrow probably won't take one game in 1000. So it will be harder for the more skilled to dominate.
On September 10 2010 14:40 zak wrote: never heard of this guy really, can someone tell me if he is good? What is a top star progamer and who are the other three?
lol he just started but he is already 1500 level diamond....
I got into the BW pro scene watching July's games so I'm really excited to get to see him play more again. Going to be cheering for him hard.
I had to laugh when he mentioned his division and points though just because I couldn't help but imagine him posting in the strategy forums. "I think SC2 is more difficult than BW. 1500 diamond zerg, btw."
Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
As someone who never wants pro BW to die, this seems fine. Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
In the absence of a Sc2 proleague, though, i don't see Sc2 replacing BW as the main esport event in Korea. The presence of Proleague allows for a much larger pool of players to make a living playing the game, and also creates a larger source of potential innovation. Remember, even if July was the first to truly master modern muta micro in BW, it was Shark, a player who never really rose above mediocre, who discovered it. In the absence of a guaranteed source of income, there will be a smaller pool of Sc2 "pro's" (defined as people who make a living from playing the game) and an overall lower level of play (since people who have to work for a living can't spend 14 hrs a day improving their mechanics and devising new strategies). It also creates a rather perverse "race to the top" where the better the level of play gets, the less true "progamers" there will be. Higher level play = more work required to win tournaments = lower cost/benefit ratio for trying to stay at the level of skill needed to be a contender for tournament winner. For example, if all of a sudden Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, and all the current usual suspects for making it far into individual leagues in BW were to switch, it would become very hard for people like Idra or July to play Sc2 professionally. Once they caught up on the strategy and game specific mechanics, the generally higher level of skill found in high level BW players would make it increasingly hard for anyone else to compete, and in the absence of proleauge like salaries, even players like Effort, Stork (ie, high level players who CAN beat the best players in the world, but can't do so consistently) would be driven from the scene.
In conclusion, until Sc2 gets a proleague, be glad that only progamers too old or unskilled to keep up with high level BW have switched.
Regarding his playing in the TG Sambo-Intel SC2 Open Season 2, he said that "My goal obviously is to win", and added a confident remark, saying that "I've been watching the players who has passed the preliminaries of Season 1, and I thought I could have definitely won"
Doesn't looks like July is impressed with the newbs on the current GSL rofl.
On September 10 2010 14:40 zak wrote: never heard of this guy really, can someone tell me if he is good? What is a top star progamer and who are the other three?
lol he just started but he is already 1500 level diamond....
All the people Thinking "ohh hes not that good". give me a break hes insane and will most likeley dominate the scene within a month or two if not from the start, and this is HUGE for sc2 aswell, seeing as if high profiled players like this/nada/boxer ect "according to the rumours" come over. im posetive ul atleast see a increase of 30-40% of people playing in Korea. these guys are legends and evryone that bashes Him/them should get a ban.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
As someone who never wants pro BW to die, this seems fine. Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
In the absence of a Sc2 proleague, though, i don't see Sc2 replacing BW as the main esport event in Korea. The presence of Proleague allows for a much larger pool of players to make a living playing the game, and also creates a larger source of potential innovation. Remember, even if July was the first to truly master modern muta micro in BW, it was Shark, a player who never really rose above mediocre, who discovered it. In the absence of a guaranteed source of income, there will be a smaller pool of Sc2 "pro's" (defined as people who make a living from playing the game) and an overall lower level of play (since people who have to work for a living can't spend 14 hrs a day improving their mechanics and devising new strategies). It also creates a rather perverse "race to the top" where the better the level of play gets, the less true "progamers" there will be. Higher level play = more work required to win tournaments = lower cost/benefit ratio for trying to stay at the level of skill needed to be a contender for tournament winner. For example, if all of a sudden Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, and all the current usual suspects for making it far into individual leagues in BW were to switch, it would become very hard for people like Idra or July to play Sc2 professionally. Once they caught up on the strategy and game specific mechanics, the generally higher level of skill found in high level BW players would make it increasingly hard for anyone else to compete, and in the absence of proleauge like salaries, even players like Effort, Stork (ie, high level players who CAN beat the best players in the world, but can't do so consistently) would be driven from the scene.
In conclusion, until Sc2 gets a proleague, be glad that only progamers too old or unskilled to keep up with high level BW have switched.
lol rly? sc2 gonna have people just as good as jaedong and flash if not better. We may not see the names now. but theres gonna be a larger pool of players trying to go pro at sc2 and playing just as much as any bwpro
On September 10 2010 14:24 NeoLearner wrote: So will he be playing as JulyZerg or keep his new FantaPrime name? Actually, it would have to become JulyPrime, right?
Anyways, my first favorite pro-gamer joining SC2. Sad for BW but awesome for SC2! July Hwaiting!
He's not joining Prime -- read the article
I did :s
He revealed that he will be joining a Starcraft 2 team
July will be joining a new Starcraft 2 team
I know Prime is already a well known team but it's not very old yet. They weren't around for BW, right? Seeing as he was playing as FantaPrime, I assumed he would go to Prime... Good news though, more Pro-Teams being created can only be good for the game.
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
User was temp banned for this post.
holy shit perm ban this scrub (again) he constantly spouts blasphemous flames directed towards the BW legends + Show Spoiler +
On August 21 2010 19:44 virgozero wrote: Im LoLing at all those guys who were like OMG NADA IS A LEGEND HE IS BEYOND PRO HE IS GOD !!!
there was an instance i remember where nada had a tank qued up and the one being produced was barely at 50%.
there you have it folks, if one unit is queued up your macro is garbage
really goes to show you your knowledge of starcraft.
1 unit can make the world of difference.
1 marauder can change a fight 1 fight can change a game 1 game can change a tournament 1 tournament can change a player
you don't always need to roflstomp someone to beat them, you just have to be beat them.
hell maybe nada thinks the build is fine, what do i know, i am just spewing the facts, hate me or love me, i dont care.
as for all the guys saying nada only played 10 games/10days/10whatever
SOURCE? right, so stfu tyvm
User was warned for this post
User was banned for this post.
look at this shit i know the mods know who he is but he constantly stirs up shit he obviously doesnt realize that nada and july have not been playing since phase 1 like many of us and they've been playing on a much much harder server for the record: july is 6th highest ranked zerg on the korean server and im 99% sure each one above him has far more experience
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
Maybe, but where's he at now? Mechanics seem the big area where younger players have an advantage over older players, whether in terms of strict APM or as a more broadly defined concept. Nothing prevents older players from adapting their strategies to fit what is working currently, and we frequently see them do just that, which would seem to suggest that that the reason why most players start to fall off as they age is a difference in mechanical skill, rather than in strategy. The fact of the matter is that whatever his APM may be, July hasn't been doing well of late in BW, a quick look over his recent games shows almost no proleague games and poor starleague results, with only 15 games in 2010 listed in TLPD. He's clearly playing worse than top and even mid tier BW players, and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
As someone who never wants pro BW to die, this seems fine. Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
In the absence of a Sc2 proleague, though, i don't see Sc2 replacing BW as the main esport event in Korea. The presence of Proleague allows for a much larger pool of players to make a living playing the game, and also creates a larger source of potential innovation. Remember, even if July was the first to truly master modern muta micro in BW, it was Shark, a player who never really rose above mediocre, who discovered it. In the absence of a guaranteed source of income, there will be a smaller pool of Sc2 "pro's" (defined as people who make a living from playing the game) and an overall lower level of play (since people who have to work for a living can't spend 14 hrs a day improving their mechanics and devising new strategies). It also creates a rather perverse "race to the top" where the better the level of play gets, the less true "progamers" there will be. Higher level play = more work required to win tournaments = lower cost/benefit ratio for trying to stay at the level of skill needed to be a contender for tournament winner. For example, if all of a sudden Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, and all the current usual suspects for making it far into individual leagues in BW were to switch, it would become very hard for people like Idra or July to play Sc2 professionally. Once they caught up on the strategy and game specific mechanics, the generally higher level of skill found in high level BW players would make it increasingly hard for anyone else to compete, and in the absence of proleauge like salaries, even players like Effort, Stork (ie, high level players who CAN beat the best players in the world, but can't do so consistently) would be driven from the scene.
In conclusion, until Sc2 gets a proleague, be glad that only progamers too old or unskilled to keep up with high level BW have switched.
lol rly? sc2 gonna have people just as good as jaedong and flash if not better. We may not see the names now. but theres gonna be a larger pool of players trying to go pro at sc2 and playing just as much as any bwpro
So, did you not read the part about how the absence of a Sc2 proleague makes this untrue, or do you just think we can all read your thoughts and understand why you think this? No matter how many people are playing Sc2, in the absence of salaries for progamers few people can practice as much as current BW pros.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
Maybe, but where's he at now? Mechanics seem the big area where younger players have an advantage over older players, whether in terms of strict APM or more broadly defined mechanics in general. Nothing prevents older players from adapting their strategies to fit what is working currently, and we frequently see them do just that, which would seem to suggest that that the reason why most players start to fall off as they age is a difference in mechanical skill, rather than in strategy. The fact of the matter is that whatever his APM may be, July hasn't been doing well of late in BW, a quick look over his recent games shows almost no proleague games and poor starleague results, with only 15 games in 2010 listed in TLPD. He's clearly playing worse than top and even mid tier BW players, and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
In one of the replays casted of him he had an average of over 350APM, and that's in SC2's fastest speed terms
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
Maybe, but where's he at now? Mechanics seem the big area where younger players have an advantage over older players, whether in terms of strict APM or more broadly defined mechanics in general. Nothing prevents older players from adapting their strategies to fit what is working currently, and we frequently see them do just that, which would seem to suggest that that the reason why most players start to fall off as they age is a difference in mechanical skill, rather than in strategy. The fact of the matter is that whatever his APM may be, July hasn't been doing well of late in BW, a quick look over his recent games shows almost no proleague games and poor starleague results, with only 15 games in 2010 listed in TLPD. He's clearly playing worse than top and even mid tier BW players, and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
In one of the replays casted of him he had an average of over 350APM, and that's in SC2's fastest speed terms
...and far from exceptional for BW pro's. My point stands.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
As someone who never wants pro BW to die, this seems fine. Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
In the absence of a Sc2 proleague, though, i don't see Sc2 replacing BW as the main esport event in Korea. The presence of Proleague allows for a much larger pool of players to make a living playing the game, and also creates a larger source of potential innovation. Remember, even if July was the first to truly master modern muta micro in BW, it was Shark, a player who never really rose above mediocre, who discovered it. In the absence of a guaranteed source of income, there will be a smaller pool of Sc2 "pro's" (defined as people who make a living from playing the game) and an overall lower level of play (since people who have to work for a living can't spend 14 hrs a day improving their mechanics and devising new strategies). It also creates a rather perverse "race to the top" where the better the level of play gets, the less true "progamers" there will be. Higher level play = more work required to win tournaments = lower cost/benefit ratio for trying to stay at the level of skill needed to be a contender for tournament winner. For example, if all of a sudden Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, and all the current usual suspects for making it far into individual leagues in BW were to switch, it would become very hard for people like Idra or July to play Sc2 professionally. Once they caught up on the strategy and game specific mechanics, the generally higher level of skill found in high level BW players would make it increasingly hard for anyone else to compete, and in the absence of proleauge like salaries, even players like Effort, Stork (ie, high level players who CAN beat the best players in the world, but can't do so consistently) would be driven from the scene.
In conclusion, until Sc2 gets a proleague, be glad that only progamers too old or unskilled to keep up with high level BW have switched.
lol rly? sc2 gonna have people just as good as jaedong and flash if not better. We may not see the names now. but theres gonna be a larger pool of players trying to go pro at sc2 and playing just as much as any bwpro
I wouldn't respond to him if I were you. He'll enjoy it.
I for one am positively thrilled to see JulyZerg doing anything other than sitting on the bench. I love this guy.
Really exciting to see some big name pros switching over. Seeing the 2nd match of the NaDa vs. TLO showmatch was quite an eyeopener... and NaDa seemed like he was having so much fun too!
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
Maybe, but where's he at now? Mechanics seem the big area where younger players have an advantage over older players, whether in terms of strict APM or more broadly defined mechanics in general. Nothing prevents older players from adapting their strategies to fit what is working currently, and we frequently see them do just that, which would seem to suggest that that the reason why most players start to fall off as they age is a difference in mechanical skill, rather than in strategy. The fact of the matter is that whatever his APM may be, July hasn't been doing well of late in BW, a quick look over his recent games shows almost no proleague games and poor starleague results, with only 15 games in 2010 listed in TLPD. He's clearly playing worse than top and even mid tier BW players, and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
In one of the replays casted of him he had an average of over 350APM, and that's in SC2's fastest speed terms
...and far from exceptional for BW pro's. My point stands.
Convert it and that puts him well over 400. Pretty top-tier if you ask me, but whatever.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
Maybe, but where's he at now? Mechanics seem the big area where younger players have an advantage over older players, whether in terms of strict APM or more broadly defined mechanics in general. Nothing prevents older players from adapting their strategies to fit what is working currently, and we frequently see them do just that, which would seem to suggest that that the reason why most players start to fall off as they age is a difference in mechanical skill, rather than in strategy. The fact of the matter is that whatever his APM may be, July hasn't been doing well of late in BW, a quick look over his recent games shows almost no proleague games and poor starleague results, with only 15 games in 2010 listed in TLPD. He's clearly playing worse than top and even mid tier BW players, and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
In one of the replays casted of him he had an average of over 350APM, and that's in SC2's fastest speed terms
...and far from exceptional for BW pro's. My point stands.
APM is counted differrently in sc2 than bw. i believe.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
Maybe, but where's he at now? Mechanics seem the big area where younger players have an advantage over older players, whether in terms of strict APM or more broadly defined mechanics in general. Nothing prevents older players from adapting their strategies to fit what is working currently, and we frequently see them do just that, which would seem to suggest that that the reason why most players start to fall off as they age is a difference in mechanical skill, rather than in strategy. The fact of the matter is that whatever his APM may be, July hasn't been doing well of late in BW, a quick look over his recent games shows almost no proleague games and poor starleague results, with only 15 games in 2010 listed in TLPD. He's clearly playing worse than top and even mid tier BW players, and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
In one of the replays casted of him he had an average of over 350APM, and that's in SC2's fastest speed terms
...and far from exceptional for BW pro's. My point stands.
Flash, the best player atm, has around 280 SCBW APM, equals around 200 in SC2. Your point is complete nonsense and you have no clue in the slightest.
EDIT: And July still is in like the top 5 in the progamer APMs, and he's faster than Jaedong for instance. If you want to say something negative about JulyZerg, APM isn't a wise choice.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
As someone who never wants pro BW to die, this seems fine. Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
In the absence of a Sc2 proleague, though, i don't see Sc2 replacing BW as the main esport event in Korea. The presence of Proleague allows for a much larger pool of players to make a living playing the game, and also creates a larger source of potential innovation. Remember, even if July was the first to truly master modern muta micro in BW, it was Shark, a player who never really rose above mediocre, who discovered it. In the absence of a guaranteed source of income, there will be a smaller pool of Sc2 "pro's" (defined as people who make a living from playing the game) and an overall lower level of play (since people who have to work for a living can't spend 14 hrs a day improving their mechanics and devising new strategies). It also creates a rather perverse "race to the top" where the better the level of play gets, the less true "progamers" there will be. Higher level play = more work required to win tournaments = lower cost/benefit ratio for trying to stay at the level of skill needed to be a contender for tournament winner. For example, if all of a sudden Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, and all the current usual suspects for making it far into individual leagues in BW were to switch, it would become very hard for people like Idra or July to play Sc2 professionally. Once they caught up on the strategy and game specific mechanics, the generally higher level of skill found in high level BW players would make it increasingly hard for anyone else to compete, and in the absence of proleauge like salaries, even players like Effort, Stork (ie, high level players who CAN beat the best players in the world, but can't do so consistently) would be driven from the scene.
In conclusion, until Sc2 gets a proleague, be glad that only progamers too old or unskilled to keep up with high level BW have switched.
well I think its fair to say that your opinion is pretty biased and not shared by many
Hi, TLers, Comet from wfbrood.com (China). I have translated this article into Chinese and posted on wfbrood.com. I have clearly stated that this was taken from here and I will bing the feedback from China back to here. Here is the link:http://bbs.wfbrood.com/thread-19828-1-1.html Thank you!
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
Maybe, but where's he at now? Mechanics seem the big area where younger players have an advantage over older players, whether in terms of strict APM or as a more broadly defined concept. Nothing prevents older players from adapting their strategies to fit what is working currently, and we frequently see them do just that, which would seem to suggest that that the reason why most players start to fall off as they age is a difference in mechanical skill, rather than in strategy. The fact of the matter is that whatever his APM may be, July hasn't been doing well of late in BW, a quick look over his recent games shows almost no proleague games and poor starleague results, with only 15 games in 2010 listed in TLPD. He's clearly playing worse than top and even mid tier BW players, and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
In my opinion it's motivation. He has a golden mouse, at some point you just have to feel like you have nothing left to prove and start to coast. I highly doubt mechanics are what have been holding July back in BW as of late.
Anyway, it's going to be really exciting watching July play SC2. Can't wait to see him in major tournaments.
Why can't people grasp the fact that July is over the hill? Obviously no one is disputing how good he was in his prime, but if he was still any good he'd be playing Proleague and in MSL/OSL, not switching to SC2.
There is no question at all, in my mind, that if Korea adopts SC2 like BW, that foreigners will pretty much stand no chance. The current Koreans playing SC2 are B-teamers at best at BW. A player of Jaedong/Flash's ability would dominate the current SC2 scene.
Also, you can't compare BW APM to SC2 APM in any way whatsover, they simply do not equate. Some factors include MBS, unlimited control groups, and the fact that you can 1a2a3a while clicking.
Tushin!! Hell yea. This is the owner of a freaking golden mouse, this is gonna be epic. As long as he's very active I have very high hopes for him considering other former notable bw progamers are all doing well.
Hopefully boxer and nada switch over and join the team, would be very similar to the old days of SC:BW.
Okay. Grats to July...but I hope this only solidifies that the 3rd progamer to switch is Boxer...the day that we find out it is boxer, I demand a tl fangasm event where one can release their fangasmic enthusiasm!!!
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
As someone who never wants pro BW to die, this seems fine. Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
In the absence of a Sc2 proleague, though, i don't see Sc2 replacing BW as the main esport event in Korea. The presence of Proleague allows for a much larger pool of players to make a living playing the game, and also creates a larger source of potential innovation. Remember, even if July was the first to truly master modern muta micro in BW, it was Shark, a player who never really rose above mediocre, who discovered it. In the absence of a guaranteed source of income, there will be a smaller pool of Sc2 "pro's" (defined as people who make a living from playing the game) and an overall lower level of play (since people who have to work for a living can't spend 14 hrs a day improving their mechanics and devising new strategies). It also creates a rather perverse "race to the top" where the better the level of play gets, the less true "progamers" there will be. Higher level play = more work required to win tournaments = lower cost/benefit ratio for trying to stay at the level of skill needed to be a contender for tournament winner. For example, if all of a sudden Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, and all the current usual suspects for making it far into individual leagues in BW were to switch, it would become very hard for people like Idra or July to play Sc2 professionally. Once they caught up on the strategy and game specific mechanics, the generally higher level of skill found in high level BW players would make it increasingly hard for anyone else to compete, and in the absence of proleauge like salaries, even players like Effort, Stork (ie, high level players who CAN beat the best players in the world, but can't do so consistently) would be driven from the scene.
In conclusion, until Sc2 gets a proleague, be glad that only progamers too old or unskilled to keep up with high level BW have switched.
well I think its fair to say that your opinion is pretty biased and not shared by many
It isn't an opinion that SC2 is less mechanically demanding then BW at the moment.
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
User was temp banned for this post.
You've already been banned, but just so you know. July won his last OSL in 2008. Respect the god father bro.
Absolutely, the most important announcement in SC2 for me, period. My favorite player is going to be back in the game, words can't describe the awesome.
On September 10 2010 14:24 NeoLearner wrote: So will he be playing as JulyZerg or keep his new FantaPrime name? Actually, it would have to become JulyPrime, right?
Anyways, my first favorite pro-gamer joining SC2. Sad for BW but awesome for SC2! July Hwaiting!
he is going to be joining a new team that is in a process of being created
On September 10 2010 14:24 NeoLearner wrote: So will he be playing as JulyZerg or keep his new FantaPrime name? Actually, it would have to become JulyPrime, right?
Anyways, my first favorite pro-gamer joining SC2. Sad for BW but awesome for SC2! July Hwaiting!
he is going to be joining a new team that is in a process of being created
The other three members named are current oGs players.
So, it looks like TesteR, Cool, RainBOw, sigamari, and Silver_kr have all been peeled from oGs. I guess the team couldn't stay such a powerhouse forever.
Awesome that so many BW pros are coming to SC2 already. Will be interesting how well they will do. I don't expect all of them to make it but I think some will transition over well.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
As someone who never wants pro BW to die, this seems fine. Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
In the absence of a Sc2 proleague, though, i don't see Sc2 replacing BW as the main esport event in Korea. The presence of Proleague allows for a much larger pool of players to make a living playing the game, and also creates a larger source of potential innovation. Remember, even if July was the first to truly master modern muta micro in BW, it was Shark, a player who never really rose above mediocre, who discovered it. In the absence of a guaranteed source of income, there will be a smaller pool of Sc2 "pro's" (defined as people who make a living from playing the game) and an overall lower level of play (since people who have to work for a living can't spend 14 hrs a day improving their mechanics and devising new strategies). It also creates a rather perverse "race to the top" where the better the level of play gets, the less true "progamers" there will be. Higher level play = more work required to win tournaments = lower cost/benefit ratio for trying to stay at the level of skill needed to be a contender for tournament winner. For example, if all of a sudden Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, and all the current usual suspects for making it far into individual leagues in BW were to switch, it would become very hard for people like Idra or July to play Sc2 professionally. Once they caught up on the strategy and game specific mechanics, the generally higher level of skill found in high level BW players would make it increasingly hard for anyone else to compete, and in the absence of proleauge like salaries, even players like Effort, Stork (ie, high level players who CAN beat the best players in the world, but can't do so consistently) would be driven from the scene.
In conclusion, until Sc2 gets a proleague, be glad that only progamers too old or unskilled to keep up with high level BW have switched.
lol rly? sc2 gonna have people just as good as jaedong and flash if not better. We may not see the names now. but theres gonna be a larger pool of players trying to go pro at sc2 and playing just as much as any bwpro
So, did you not read the part about how the absence of a Sc2 proleague makes this untrue, or do you just think we can all read your thoughts and understand why you think this? No matter how many people are playing Sc2, in the absence of salaries for progamers few people can practice as much as current BW pros.
Intel, Gretech and Blizz are already investing massively in professional SC2, just look at the prize pool of the GSL, and there's already proteams in the making. I highly doubt there won't be a SC2 proleague pretty soon.
And btw, your perception of the skills required to play both games seems pretty biased. Don't forget that SC2 retail is not even 2 months old, of course the skill level is lower at SC2 right now. You just can't compare the 2 like that.
I'm sorry to tell you that, but you do sound like a butthurt diehard anti-SC2 bw fan. (and that's coming from a guy who's been playing BW since 2000)
On September 10 2010 15:25 foxmeep wrote: Why can't people grasp the fact that July is over the hill? Obviously no one is disputing how good he was in his prime, but if he was still any good he'd be playing Proleague and in MSL/OSL, not switching to SC2.
There is no question at all, in my mind, that if Korea adopts SC2 like BW, that foreigners will pretty much stand no chance. The current Koreans playing SC2 are B-teamers at best at BW. A player of Jaedong/Flash's ability would dominate the current SC2 scene.
Also, you can't compare BW APM to SC2 APM in any way whatsover, they simply do not equate. Some factors include MBS, unlimited control groups, and the fact that you can 1a2a3a while clicking.
Yeah he's over the hill( kind of an ugly term when referring to a legend) in sc: bw but the point is that his mechanical skill and apm are still there. I suspect that the reason he's not doing as well in BW anymore has more to do with lack of motivation than anything else as some have pointed out. There always comes a time when you just become stagnant at what you're doing and if you'd have accomplished what he has I don't think it's far fetched that that's what has happened.
Of course why we think he's not doing as well in BW anymore is irrelevant and it's just a fact that he has been performing poorly compared to his glory days but when you relate that to sc2 it really does become important. If it really is a lack of motivation then starting something new like sc2 will remedy that problem at least and I think that it is clear that it's not his mechanical skills that are sub par so I think this is really exciting and imo does equal a top pro coming over and hopefully he will show us some of the potential that sc2 does have.
Excited to see Zuly and GSL season 2, which imo is shaping up to be better with a much deeper field.
I don't think it's unfair to say he's over the hill in BW, regardless of his legendary status. However to dismiss SC2 as SPGA or some kind of retirement league is sad. The scene is still young, and I think it's exciting to watch it grow. It's obviously nowhere NEAR proleague/OSL/MSL at this stage.
Wish both the BW and SC2 factions got along better.
I love it when all the doom prediction skill/age police come in and dump on a thread like this. I dont know how anyone else feels, but when i come to a thread to read about something as awesome as July switching to sc2 the last thing i want to read are tons of posts talking about how the dudes over the hill and going to fail and on and on. Cant people just be excited to see a familiar face come over and give it a shot? Does it have to be nonstop brutal scrutiny of players age etc? Everytime a player comes out of retirement or an older player switches over there are so many people trying to be wise and predict how they "just cant do it" and dont have what it takes anymore. Its a bit ridiculous because whether they succeed or fail doesnt really even depend on them winning games. People like July, Boxer, even CellaWerra are praised and loved win or lose. Im excited to see these older players play sc2. Seriously how crazy would you have to be to read this news and the first thing you want to tell the world is that nothing great will come of it cause hes washed up and old? Give at least some respect maybe i mean the guy is a freakin BW legend for christs sake.
Besides that guy that said Jaedong is gifted but July is just another normal human and the awesome news of July switching this is probably one of the better threads to start a day with. Fucking good news and hilarious :3
GSL Season 2 should be epic since more and more big names are switching over and already we've seen some amazing matches.
On September 10 2010 17:31 nitdkim wrote: good for him! now to have peace between factions of SC1 and SC2 so that the both factions can prosper by helping each other...
reading the Brood War section, i still think there is a long way im afraid
On September 10 2010 16:51 Housta wrote: Even more interested I see sAviOr on the chart at rank 47 korean server. Can anyone confirm its him? (so what still a fan!)
Progamers don't play on their real names for obvious reasons. I think it's safe to say it's not him.
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
On September 10 2010 17:44 ddrt wrote: He is going to hate his life when he sees all the terran players like poltprime.
What are you talking about?
Well, this was pretty obvious after all of those little rumors and speculations in the previous threads. But now i'm kinda happy that i actually believed those rumors and speculations in the beginning.
YES! Very glad to see this. Time for some Sauron Zerg. Let's hope things go well and more awesome Koreans start switching over(not that I'm asking for the death of sc1, but in my mind it is a bit hard to see both being flourish at the same time for a long time. *shrug* what do I know?)
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
User was temp banned for this post.
^^^^ apparently doesn't know who julyzerg is.
while I agree July is probably like, one of the top 3 Z of all time.. Jaedong and Flash really took BW to a whole nother level in terms of macro. That being said, its not something that will translate over to SC2 (because its a less macro-heavy game, and more micro heavy game) so its arguable that someone like July or Boxer would infact do BETTER (or just as good at least) than Flash or Jaedong in SC2. Well, Flash anyways.. Jaedong is also a micro monster comparable to Boxer or July. Jaedong is just not human. He should be rated above every pro, past or present.
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
User was temp banned for this post.
ROFLMAO learn the facts before making fool of yourself ^_^
^^^^ apparently doesn't know who julyzerg is.
while I agree July is probably like, one of the top 3 Z of all time.. Jaedong and Flash really took BW to a whole nother level in terms of macro. That being said, its not something that will translate over to SC2 (because its a less macro-heavy game, and more micro heavy game) so its arguable that someone like July or Boxer would infact do BETTER (or just as good at least) than Flash or Jaedong in SC2. Well, Flash anyways.. Jaedong is also a micro monster comparable to Boxer or July. Jaedong is just not human. He should be rated above every pro, past or present.
More micro heavy? really? I think it doesnt have as much micro (or macro) thanks to stupid AI.. but i might be wrong?
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
It's official finally. July is one my favorite Zergs and therefor favorite players of all time, and to see him successfully move to SC2 is just something....that makes giggly inside.
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
July is one of three golden mouse winners, together with Nada and Jaedong. To say that he's just another korean pro is an insult to July's legacy. Yes, he wasn't doin well in recent years, but guess what, if BW continues to be a big esport, two or three years from now Flash and Jaedong won't be as dominant as they are now. Progamers, just like athletes, have their peak. People are just glad to see an old legend like July further driving forward SC2 as an e-sport.
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
no body can appreciate how good koreans are unless youve played thousands of games on pgtour or iccup and still get roflstomped by amateur level koreans who will never be good enough to even make the b-team of a pro team much less actually ever be in a televised match and definitely never have an actual winning record in televised matches
you dont appreciate how fuckin good these guys are at bw until you get humiliated repeatedly by the inferior unknown koreans (who are terrible compared to A team pros)
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
User was temp banned for this post.
Its the korean approach that makes them much more superior to the NA/EU in a game like starcraft. They simply just are more dedicated and have a better structure on how to practice effectively. I would love to see some foreigner really take sc2 by the reigns and become dominate, or just more foreigners who can compete in these gsl tournaments with the koreans. I am super excited to see the old school bw players to come over though.
From what i've seen from him so far he is an excellent player in sc2, even with the current state of zerg and will probably be in the forefront of tournaments and e-sports in the future. Golden mouse will carry him!
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
User was temp banned for this post.
Its the korean approach that makes them much more superior to the NA/EU in a game like starcraft. They simply just are more dedicated and have a better structure on how to practice effectively. I would love to see some foreigner really take sc2 by the reigns and become dominate, or just more foreigners who can compete in these gsl tournaments with the koreans. I am super excited to see the old school bw players to come over though.
Honestly, I think it's a combination of the two. There have been plenty of foreigners that have gone to Korea to train, and none of them have ever been mechanically strong compared to Koreans.
Is it so hard to imagine that being Korean could actually have a genetic advantage? Obviously it's ridiculous to say Koreans are genetically better at Starcraft, but perhaps more that Asians are, in general, more agile/nimble and have faster reflexes than foreigners. Look at the sports Asians excel at at the Olympics for instance... it is a thought.
July is a baller ! People who are not familiar with him should check out his EVER OSL 2008 final . In fact i'm going to post the games here and rewatch them :
I'm looking forward to July dronedrilling some protoss in SC 2 if thats even possible .
It seems to me, from the translated remarks above in the OP, that July (and seemingly other pro-sc:bw players) have tried SC2, but since it was so early in it's life, it seemed immature as a game and they thought it sucked. But after they figured out there is other levels to the game and that people can do all of these amazing things, and that they just sucked at the game at the start that they will now give it a chance.
Just me speculating on this from very little to no information, but it could make sense considering they are just now turning to the game after the GSL was announced and that they realized there is a lot of potential for this game, dare I say more than sc:bw.
On September 10 2010 14:24 NeoLearner wrote: So will he be playing as JulyZerg or keep his new FantaPrime name? Actually, it would have to become JulyPrime, right?
Anyways, my first favorite pro-gamer joining SC2. Sad for BW but awesome for SC2! July Hwaiting!
I know Prime is already a well known team but it's not very old yet. They weren't around for BW, right? Seeing as he was playing as FantaPrime, I assumed he would go to Prime... Good news though, more Pro-Teams being created can only be good for the game.
July will be joining a new Starcraft 2 team that is in the middle of creation
On September 10 2010 22:00 MisterPuppy wrote: wow july thinks its more difficult than BW?
No, no one who actually plays BW thinks SC2 is more difficult. What I think he means is, compared to when he started playing for the first time, the game has gotten more complex and deeper, becoming hard to pick up right away and dominate.
On September 10 2010 21:31 Iplaythings wrote: Oh god im scared shitless of this actually. His macro was his weakpoint, and his style allready reflects the current korean style.
On September 10 2010 22:00 MisterPuppy wrote: wow july thinks its more difficult than BW?
I'm thinking this might be a slight mis-translation. Like maybe he meant "SC2 is getting more difficult, increasing in it's difficulty in relation to BW". That's possible, right? Or maybe he thinks, like others have said, that since the mechanics are easier the strategy and micro have potential to be more important? Who knows. The important thing is he thinks Sc2 is worth his time. Instant legitimacy boost to SC2 as a successor to BW.
The guy still has fight left in him. Didn't he get to Semis of the last GOM BW tournament before getting knocked out by Flash? and 2008 wasn't all that long ago.
Wow, I've always been a toss guy, but the Swarm has all my sentimental favorite players now (except TLO, of course). CellaWeRRa, Ret, JulyZerg. Those guys are going to be my favorites until Reach joins the fight for Aiur.
excited to see such a high profile player switch to SC2. Even if he totally rofl fails at SC2 (which, for the record, I highly doubt he will) the fan base he will draw to the game will honestly be worth Blizzard paying for the advertising he gives, just for being July.
Also, maybe this decision will influence some of his peers (the other top gamers of his time) to switch over.
Finally, shame on everyone flaming July. If you don't know who he is, look him up on Liquipedia, he has a very long page detailing everything about his gaming life, including the fact that HE WON 3 OSLs AND INVENTED MUTA MICRO (ok maybe he didn't invent muta micro, but he sure as shit made the jaws drop of little nerdlings everywhere, and made them wanna be just like July *cough* savior *double cough* Jaedong.
It would be really nice also to have savior, hwasin and upmagic in sc2. As long as Kespa don't have anything to do with sc2 this should be at least possible.
On September 10 2010 14:24 NeoLearner wrote: So will he be playing as JulyZerg or keep his new FantaPrime name? Actually, it would have to become JulyPrime, right?
Anyways, my first favorite pro-gamer joining SC2. Sad for BW but awesome for SC2! July Hwaiting!
JulyPrime would be an awesome name. Although I do like Fanta. It's exciting to see him switch over!
loveing the people bashing july's apm, july is a great player, but like any player he has weakness and strengths. APM is most defitnaly strength of julys. 818 anyone?
watching the Last Ep of Old Boy (nal_ra's series) made me think that July probably has to make the most from the next GSL (and more to come) to have his big break in the scene before having to go to National Service : (
Hopefully he can make great play in the next GSL. Cause atm, the play level is pretty week imo, I cannot wait for the final so we can see high level of play. July will surely bring other player to start.
On September 10 2010 21:36 raga4ka wrote: July is a baller ! People who are not familiar with him should check out his EVER OSL 2008 final . In fact i'm going to post the games here and rewatch them :
<videos removed for space>
I'm looking forward to July dronedrilling some protoss in SC 2 if thats even possible .
Good references, but I'm not sure 2 rushes and kicking around dosairs is exactly the best way to show off someone's talent
Anyways, July was certainly never mechanically lacking. I don't know how well he'll do, but no doubt some sort of impressive control tricks are on the way.
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
User was temp banned for this post.
Its the korean approach that makes them much more superior to the NA/EU in a game like starcraft. They simply just are more dedicated and have a better structure on how to practice effectively. I would love to see some foreigner really take sc2 by the reigns and become dominate, or just more foreigners who can compete in these gsl tournaments with the koreans. I am super excited to see the old school bw players to come over though.
Honestly, I think it's a combination of the two. There have been plenty of foreigners that have gone to Korea to train, and none of them have ever been mechanically strong compared to Koreans.
Is it so hard to imagine that being Korean could actually have a genetic advantage? Obviously it's ridiculous to say Koreans are genetically better at Starcraft, but perhaps more that Asians are, in general, more agile/nimble and have faster reflexes than foreigners. Look at the sports Asians excel at at the Olympics for instance... it is a thought.
What percentage of BW players are pro-level? A very small number right? There is a statistical phenomenon going on here. You can count the number of foreigners who have gone to play in Korea on your fingers and toes. The number of koreans who aspire to become pros and actually work towards that goal is absolutely much higher, and proportionate to the population of Korean gamers much higher. There is an element of talent in all games, it is small and minute.
The talent that separates Jaedong and Flash from the rest is so small you cannot measure it except by looking at their BW performance, you could not possibly observe in other activities. But that small talent differential is what makes them the top, dominant players. BW is 99% practice and 1% talent. But at the pro levels, that 1% talent is what separates the top from the rest.
There are probably many, many more Jaedong's and Flash's in Europe or in China, or North America than there are in Korea. But you will never find them because so few foreigners go to Korea and fulfill their 99% potential through practice. If pro BW were as big in North America and involved the same rigor of training, there would be so many more Jaedong's and Flash's because there would be so many more progamers testing their mettle and so many aspiring talents who have an oppurtunity to rise to the top.
There is a reason why America and China dominate the olympics. They both have a *LOT* of people, and hence more potential talent to tap. And they try to get to that talent into the olympics instead of it going unrealized.
An example of a nation doing remarkably well beyond its population is Russia, which comparatively has a smaller population and so less potential talent. But Soviet era training regimens would terrify you. The reason why Russian and ex-Soviet chess grandmasters dominate the top levels of chess is because Russian training makes Korean progamer training look like kindergarten, for example. Of course, that era has gone by and you can notice that Russian dominance in many fields is receding.
tl;dr; there is a lot of untapped talent in other countries that will never be realized because they don't have the same progaming culture that Korean BW has. The foreigners that have gone to Korea have not been the most talented possible (although still very good, look at Idra for example).
So he was FantaPrime right? This is going to be great. I wonder if this will encourage the other 2 to step out and officially announce their move to SC2.
On September 10 2010 14:24 sluggaslamoo wrote: This is July you are talking about here... the god damn mutha-fing 818 APM July.
818 APM. 818 APM. I wonder how much that is in SC2, but still. 818...
That's like... he makes 400 zerglings (2x 200) and makes two individual moves with each one in under a minute.
Or he just spam-selects them a ton.
I recall the first game of Incruit OSL RO16 (July vs Flash). July peaked at well over 800 APM, and his game involved flying mutas into a wall of turrets and losing everything.
July's sure got the mechanics, but he's not effectively that much faster than anyone else.
Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
As someone who never wants pro BW to die, this seems fine. Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
In the absence of a Sc2 proleague, though, i don't see Sc2 replacing BW as the main esport event in Korea. The presence of Proleague allows for a much larger pool of players to make a living playing the game, and also creates a larger source of potential innovation. Remember, even if July was the first to truly master modern muta micro in BW, it was Shark, a player who never really rose above mediocre, who discovered it. In the absence of a guaranteed source of income, there will be a smaller pool of Sc2 "pro's" (defined as people who make a living from playing the game) and an overall lower level of play (since people who have to work for a living can't spend 14 hrs a day improving their mechanics and devising new strategies). It also creates a rather perverse "race to the top" where the better the level of play gets, the less true "progamers" there will be. Higher level play = more work required to win tournaments = lower cost/benefit ratio for trying to stay at the level of skill needed to be a contender for tournament winner. For example, if all of a sudden Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, and all the current usual suspects for making it far into individual leagues in BW were to switch, it would become very hard for people like Idra or July to play Sc2 professionally. Once they caught up on the strategy and game specific mechanics, the generally higher level of skill found in high level BW players would make it increasingly hard for anyone else to compete, and in the absence of proleauge like salaries, even players like Effort, Stork (ie, high level players who CAN beat the best players in the world, but can't do so consistently) would be driven from the scene.
In conclusion, until Sc2 gets a proleague, be glad that only progamers too old or unskilled to keep up with high level BW have switched.
Its so sad to read the people who want to turn everything into a BW vs SC2 war, we saw it with the whole KeSpa thing and now this.
You may not like it, but SC2 is taking off and July isent the first nor the last player who makes the switch.
We all still love BW but its time to move on to a different game and see new legends aswell as old ones battle it out. I know people like you exist in every corner of the internet "everything was better before baaw" like an old man yelling at the youngsters how everything was better in his day etc.
You can keep doing that, but at least do it on other forums or do it in he BW section where you will get more support from the "lets gogogo BW vs SC2, BW wins lolol" brigade, because you are inscure that SC2 is taking over.
My prediction: July Replays are shown. Zergs are highlighted on streams Topic are made on Zerg strategies FLOOD if Zerg IMBA strategies incoming because Zergs generally increase in skill as a korean progamer paves the way.
Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
As someone who never wants pro BW to die, this seems fine. Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
In the absence of a Sc2 proleague, though, i don't see Sc2 replacing BW as the main esport event in Korea. The presence of Proleague allows for a much larger pool of players to make a living playing the game, and also creates a larger source of potential innovation. Remember, even if July was the first to truly master modern muta micro in BW, it was Shark, a player who never really rose above mediocre, who discovered it. In the absence of a guaranteed source of income, there will be a smaller pool of Sc2 "pro's" (defined as people who make a living from playing the game) and an overall lower level of play (since people who have to work for a living can't spend 14 hrs a day improving their mechanics and devising new strategies). It also creates a rather perverse "race to the top" where the better the level of play gets, the less true "progamers" there will be. Higher level play = more work required to win tournaments = lower cost/benefit ratio for trying to stay at the level of skill needed to be a contender for tournament winner. For example, if all of a sudden Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, and all the current usual suspects for making it far into individual leagues in BW were to switch, it would become very hard for people like Idra or July to play Sc2 professionally. Once they caught up on the strategy and game specific mechanics, the generally higher level of skill found in high level BW players would make it increasingly hard for anyone else to compete, and in the absence of proleauge like salaries, even players like Effort, Stork (ie, high level players who CAN beat the best players in the world, but can't do so consistently) would be driven from the scene.
In conclusion, until Sc2 gets a proleague, be glad that only progamers too old or unskilled to keep up with high level BW have switched.
Its so sad to read the people who want to turn everything into a BW vs SC2 war, we saw it with the whole KeSpa thing and now this.
You may not like it, but SC2 is taking off and July isent the first nor the last player who makes the switch.
We all still love BW but its time to move on to a different game and see new legends aswell as old ones battle it out. I know people like you exist in every corner of the internet "everything was better before baaw" like an old man yelling at the youngsters how everything was better in his day etc.
You can keep doing that, but at least do it on other forums or do it in he BW section where you will get more support from the "lets gogogo BW vs SC2, BW wins lolol" brigade, because you are inscure that SC2 is taking over.
Basically this. I'll add that when the money is there, more pros will move to SC2. Gamers don't care about which game requires more APM or mechanics, they go where the money is. If there is more money to be made in SC2, more pros will be playing SC2, it's just that simple. It's why you're seeing vets like July and others move over.
BTW, anyone dissing on July needs their head examined. Seriously.
Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
As someone who never wants pro BW to die, this seems fine. Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
In the absence of a Sc2 proleague, though, i don't see Sc2 replacing BW as the main esport event in Korea. The presence of Proleague allows for a much larger pool of players to make a living playing the game, and also creates a larger source of potential innovation. Remember, even if July was the first to truly master modern muta micro in BW, it was Shark, a player who never really rose above mediocre, who discovered it. In the absence of a guaranteed source of income, there will be a smaller pool of Sc2 "pro's" (defined as people who make a living from playing the game) and an overall lower level of play (since people who have to work for a living can't spend 14 hrs a day improving their mechanics and devising new strategies). It also creates a rather perverse "race to the top" where the better the level of play gets, the less true "progamers" there will be. Higher level play = more work required to win tournaments = lower cost/benefit ratio for trying to stay at the level of skill needed to be a contender for tournament winner. For example, if all of a sudden Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, and all the current usual suspects for making it far into individual leagues in BW were to switch, it would become very hard for people like Idra or July to play Sc2 professionally. Once they caught up on the strategy and game specific mechanics, the generally higher level of skill found in high level BW players would make it increasingly hard for anyone else to compete, and in the absence of proleauge like salaries, even players like Effort, Stork (ie, high level players who CAN beat the best players in the world, but can't do so consistently) would be driven from the scene.
In conclusion, until Sc2 gets a proleague, be glad that only progamers too old or unskilled to keep up with high level BW have switched.
Its so sad to read the people who want to turn everything into a BW vs SC2 war, we saw it with the whole KeSpa thing and now this.
You may not like it, but SC2 is taking off and July isent the first nor the last player who makes the switch.
We all still love BW but its time to move on to a different game and see new legends aswell as old ones battle it out. I know people like you exist in every corner of the internet "everything was better before baaw" like an old man yelling at the youngsters how everything was better in his day etc.
You can keep doing that, but at least do it on other forums or do it in he BW section where you will get more support from the "lets gogogo BW vs SC2, BW wins lolol" brigade, because you are inscure that SC2 is taking over.
And it's pretty hilarious how assumptions are already being made about SC2. The game is so new and the skill ceiling is nowhere close in sight, it is sad to see BW lovers hating so hard on SC2 because they don't want BW to die.
Sc2 is the senior PGA of esports - a place where we can see our former hero's now past their prime still duke it out, while the young bucks fight it out in a more skill-intense league.
You are saying "mehh some of the pros are getting older, so they shall move to SC2 because their skills are getting worse. Let the real best players keep playing BW because the game requires more skill"
SC2 will require more skill when the players get better! Units function much more like they are commanded to unlike in BW. IMO This will make micro extremely delicate when serious progamers start playing SC2. Strategies will be much more various and irregular. I'm just psyched. I hate when people debunk SC2 because its like WTF? I've been waiting 12 years, bro, I'm gonna defend this game like it's my child.
BW will die, eventually. New players now start with SC2, so this is the end of days of BW. Look, we all loved it, but some people are slower to let go. Leave them be. Their suffering is of their own making.
On September 10 2010 14:24 sluggaslamoo wrote: This is July you are talking about here... the god damn mutha-fing 818 APM July.
818 APM. 818 APM. I wonder how much that is in SC2, but still. 818...
That's like... he makes 400 zerglings (2x 200) and makes two individual moves with each one in under a minute.
Or he just spam-selects them a ton.
I recall the first game of Incruit OSL RO16 (July vs Flash). July peaked at well over 800 APM, and his game involved flying mutas into a wall of turrets and losing everything.
July's sure got the mechanics, but he's not effectively that much faster than anyone else.
Frankly, I'm so relieved to hear that. Thank you, good sir.
Awesome. I just hope July doesn't do his senseless aggression too much like he did in brood war. <_< "Oh, I'll just throw 200/200 food armies x5 at his front. It'll work."
Good. July is a literal Zerg beast and his presence basically means that more and more people will be inspired to take up Zerg. I bet he will try to pave the way for new Zerg strats. He was famous for his Sauron Zerg strat in SC1. Can't wait to see more pro BW players join into the fray and pave the way for brand new strats.
Nice to see July back in action! He couldn't seem to keep up with his STX teammates lately so this is definitely the right move for him. No doubt that the guy will be a total beast and one of the very top players for at least a good few months.
On September 11 2010 02:41 Kinch wrote: BW will die, eventually. New players now start with SC2, so this is the end of days of BW.
Amazing logic here sir......
Everyone, please try and stop derailing every single thread into a BW vs SC2 discussion. Thanks.
As soon as you realize that the Koreans will slowly start to switch over, you will be getting raped nonstop back and forth brutally just like in BW. Isn't the reason why people moved to SC2 mainly because they knew they wouldn't become the best? But in SC2, everyone gets that fair chance of becoming a top player. I mean, look at -orb- a C- BW toss that became a known SC2 player (this applies to many other players as well).
I wonder what you guys will then, when it becomes Korea > rest of the world again. SC3?? lulz
On September 11 2010 05:34 Amnesia wrote: GL guys.
As soon as you realize that the Koreans will slowly start to switch over, you will be getting raped nonstop back and forth brutally just like in BW. Isn't the reason why people moved to SC2 mainly because they knew they wouldn't become the best? But in SC2, everyone gets that fair chance of becoming a top player. I mean, look at -orb- a C- BW toss that became a known SC2 player (this applies to many other players as well).
I wonder what you guys will then, when it becomes Korea > rest of the world again. SC3?? lulz
Really? Is there something wrong with playing a game where someone else is better at it? Is there something wrong with pro-players coming into the game and creating revolutionary playstyles and tactics where we can learn from and emulate? Did all of us SC2 players expect to become super-pros and not think that the koreans would have raped us regardless?
On September 11 2010 05:34 Amnesia wrote: GL guys.
As soon as you realize that the Koreans will slowly start to switch over, you will be getting raped nonstop back and forth brutally just like in BW. Isn't the reason why people moved to SC2 mainly because they knew they wouldn't become the best? But in SC2, everyone gets that fair chance of becoming a top player. I mean, look at -orb- a C- BW toss that became a known SC2 player (this applies to many other players as well).
I wonder what you guys will then, when it becomes Korea > rest of the world again. SC3?? lulz
Really? Is there something wrong with playing a game where someone else is better at it? Is there something wrong with pro-players coming into the game and creating revolutionary playstyles and tactics where we can learn from and emulate? Did all of us SC2 players expect to become super-pros and not think that the koreans would have raped us regardless?
Come on... this is just rude.
Is just a good thing for sc2 that koreans are moving to it =) B for BW =(( Id rather play vs the best than vs the worst player
EDIT: I say that of course because they are clearly trying to boycott sc2 and one of their strategies was to prevent progamers to go there so older fans wouldn't follow. Sorry though.
On September 11 2010 06:47 Dionyseus wrote: According to SC2ranks.com July went from 193rd in the world to 27th in the world in just 5 days. Can't wait to see him in action at GSL season 2!
ive been following this closely as well and i self confirmed he was july by the fact that he went completely inactive when he was supposedly in china (416-319) and then when he came back bam +100 games almost instantly
On September 11 2010 05:34 Amnesia wrote: GL guys.
As soon as you realize that the Koreans will slowly start to switch over, you will be getting raped nonstop back and forth brutally just like in BW. Isn't the reason why people moved to SC2 mainly because they knew they wouldn't become the best? But in SC2, everyone gets that fair chance of becoming a top player. I mean, look at -orb- a C- BW toss that became a known SC2 player (this applies to many other players as well).
I wonder what you guys will then, when it becomes Korea > rest of the world again. SC3?? lulz
Thats why there are different servers for korea and the rest of the world lulz.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
Can you prove that? Mechanical skill seems to be on par with each other with extra, mechanics thrown in to make things more attention based read: Larvae/Chrono Boost.
I'd agree with in combat micro but, as it stands thats a dubious assumption due to the novelty of the game everyone makes so many mistakes *watch the GSL* that micro is often not needed to a high regard because you mostly out number or out comp the opposing player.
I have yet to see an example of stark game mechanics where BW requires MORE apm. Yes SC2 has mechanics made simpler but there has been so many more added that I don't see either game having a difference in skill.
Besides, what determines skill in a game isn't the mechanics it'self it's your opponent.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
Can you prove that? Mechanical skill seems to be on par with each other with extra, mechanics thrown in to make things more attention based read: Larvae/Chrono Boost.
I'd agree with in combat micro but, as it stands thats a dubious assumption due to the novelty of the game everyone makes so many mistakes *watch the GSL* that micro is often not needed to a high regard because you mostly out number or out comp the opposing player.
I have yet to see an example of stark game mechanics where BW requires MORE apm. Yes SC2 has mechanics made simpler but there has been so many more added that I don't see either game having a difference in skill.
Besides, what determines skill in a game isn't the mechanics it'self it's your opponent.
bw definitely requires more apm simply because of mbs vs. no mbs. There's just no arguing that. There's also no arguing that that does not make SC2 a worthless game.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
Can you prove that? Mechanical skill seems to be on par with each other with extra, mechanics thrown in to make things more attention based read: Larvae/Chrono Boost.
I'd agree with in combat micro but, as it stands thats a dubious assumption due to the novelty of the game everyone makes so many mistakes *watch the GSL* that micro is often not needed to a high regard because you mostly out number or out comp the opposing player.
I have yet to see an example of stark game mechanics where BW requires MORE apm. Yes SC2 has mechanics made simpler but there has been so many more added that I don't see either game having a difference in skill.
Besides, what determines skill in a game isn't the mechanics it'self it's your opponent.
bw definitely requires more apm simply because of mbs vs. no mbs. There's just no arguing that. There's also no arguing that that does not make SC2 a worthless game.
I think it might be on par and hear me out, the auto targeting for a lot of units is just awful, for a slow high power weapon like the seige tank its awesome but for most units there is a priority kill system that a lot of the time totally overrides player action and requires constant babying in order to kill anything. Read: massive wall of medivacs to draw auto fire. Or SCV rushes that leave scvs still alive at the end of a 200/200 battle.
Yes, there were some aspects of the game made easier but more mechanics and UI elements were added that make this game just as infuriating to play at a high level.
edit: REALLY amped to see what an A-Teamer can do in SC2 we have all our fan boy favorites but this should be something special.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
Can you prove that? Mechanical skill seems to be on par with each other with extra, mechanics thrown in to make things more attention based read: Larvae/Chrono Boost.
I'd agree with in combat micro but, as it stands thats a dubious assumption due to the novelty of the game everyone makes so many mistakes *watch the GSL* that micro is often not needed to a high regard because you mostly out number or out comp the opposing player.
I have yet to see an example of stark game mechanics where BW requires MORE apm. Yes SC2 has mechanics made simpler but there has been so many more added that I don't see either game having a difference in skill.
Besides, what determines skill in a game isn't the mechanics it'self it's your opponent.
bw definitely requires more apm simply because of mbs vs. no mbs. There's just no arguing that. There's also no arguing that that does not make SC2 a worthless game.
I think it might be on par and hear me out, the auto targeting for a lot of units is just awful, for a slow high power weapon like the seige tank its awesome but for most units there is a priority kill system that a lot of the time totally overrides player action and requires constant babying in order to kill anything. Read: massive wall of medivacs to draw auto fire. Or SCV rushes that leave scvs still alive at the end of a 200/200 battle.
Yes, there were some aspects of the game made easier but more mechanics and UI elements were added that make this game just as infuriating to play at a high level.
edit: REALLY amped to see what an A-Teamer can do in SC2 we have all our fan boy favorites but this should be something special.
What? MBS = multiple building selection. What does that have to do with auto targeting?
Woooo, it's finally official! Can't wait to see him dominate, I'm sure he will. I also can't wait for who's going to be the next BW pro to make the switch.
This is exactly what SC2 needs to catch momentum and start to grow. When amazing players like July switches over it sends a very very powerful message about how good SC2 actually is.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
Can you prove that? Mechanical skill seems to be on par with each other with extra, mechanics thrown in to make things more attention based read: Larvae/Chrono Boost.
I'd agree with in combat micro but, as it stands thats a dubious assumption due to the novelty of the game everyone makes so many mistakes *watch the GSL* that micro is often not needed to a high regard because you mostly out number or out comp the opposing player.
I have yet to see an example of stark game mechanics where BW requires MORE apm. Yes SC2 has mechanics made simpler but there has been so many more added that I don't see either game having a difference in skill.
Besides, what determines skill in a game isn't the mechanics it'self it's your opponent.
There really isn't even an argument that SC2 is more mechanical than BW.
1. No mbs, if you think hitting your queen hotkey and "v"ing every hatchery on the minimap is demanding, imagine having to manually visit each hatchery (on its own hotkey) to start up each unit/reset rally points, it was crazy. As T/P you had to come back to your base every macro cycle and manually hit EVERY building, compared to the W hotkey and barracks grouping. Resetting rally points for 15 gateways took: click on gate>move screen to new rally (location hotkey or minimap click)>click>move screen back to gateways (location hotkey or minimap click). FOR EACH GATEWAY....
2. 12 unit selection cap, in order to move your maxed zerg army you would have to use 6 or 7 hotkeys alone depending on how many lings you had. Then when you lost units from certain hotkeys, you couldn't just shift add them to your hotkeys, you had to find out which ones now had room....massive pain in the ass, and took a shitton of actions.
3. Crappy pathing, if you wanted to move 2 controls of goons up or down a ramp you couldn't just hit 1a, you had to baby the little fuckers up there, or you would literally have 1/2-1/3 of your army just go wandering off across the map trying to find an alternate route.
4. No smartcasting, if you had 7 HT and wanted to storm you couldn't just press T and click because they would all cast stacked storms on the same spot. You had to manually click on each templar individually and target them or clone the storms from far away....took ALOT of clicks.
These basic functions just took many more action to do in BW. The only added thing you have to do in SC2 are the macro mechanics, which take far less time and attention than the things I have outlined.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
Can you prove that? Mechanical skill seems to be on par with each other with extra, mechanics thrown in to make things more attention based read: Larvae/Chrono Boost.
I'd agree with in combat micro but, as it stands thats a dubious assumption due to the novelty of the game everyone makes so many mistakes *watch the GSL* that micro is often not needed to a high regard because you mostly out number or out comp the opposing player.
I have yet to see an example of stark game mechanics where BW requires MORE apm. Yes SC2 has mechanics made simpler but there has been so many more added that I don't see either game having a difference in skill.
Besides, what determines skill in a game isn't the mechanics it'self it's your opponent.
There really isn't even an argument that SC2 is more mechanical than BW.
1. No mbs, if you think hitting your queen hotkey and "v"ing every hatchery on the minimap is demanding, imagine having to manually visit each hatchery (on its own hotkey) to start up each unit/reset rally points, it was crazy. As T/P you had to come back to your base every macro cycle and manually hit EVERY building, compared to the W hotkey and barracks grouping. Resetting rally points for 15 gateways took: click on gate>move screen to new rally (location hotkey or minimap click)>click>move screen back to gateways (location hotkey or minimap click). FOR EACH GATEWAY....
2. 12 unit selection cap, in order to move your maxed zerg army you would have to use 6 or 7 hotkeys alone depending on how many lings you had. Then when you lost units from certain hotkeys, you couldn't just shift add them to your hotkeys, you had to find out which ones now had room....massive pain in the ass, and took a shitton of actions.
3. Crappy pathing, if you wanted to move 2 controls of goons up or down a ramp you couldn't just hit 1a, you had to baby the little fuckers up there, or you would literally have 1/2-1/3 of your army just go wandering off across the map trying to find an alternate route.
4. No smartcasting, if you had 7 HT and wanted to storm you couldn't just press T and click because they would all cast stacked storms on the same spot. You had to manually click on each templar individually and target them or clone the storms from far away....took ALOT of clicks.
These basic functions just took many more action to do in BW. The only added thing you have to do in SC2 are the macro mechanics, which take far less time and attention than the things I have outlined.
This.
Though I am interested as to why a long time pro like July has the opinion that "I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original". Maybe he's just suffering trying to figure out Zerg in Sc2.
He should be successful at SC2. A lot of the new progamers are so practice and mechanics drilled that I feel they have less creativity, they don't have the ingenuity that some of the older players have. There are players in the top 25 of Kespa ranking that have never made their own build - they just execute existing ones with superior mechanics.
July is not like this. He played during a time when creativity and innovation thrived, exactly the kind of gameplay that is needed in SC2 as it is a new game. I won't say he was innovative DURING the game, but he may have been. It's difficult to say because we never know what was practiced beforehand, and what few rare moments were calculated and planned during play. Certainly many progamers in interviews have said that what seemed like a sudden reaction to their opponent (some sort of hang-bang attack), was in fact practiced often [the first few times I was shocked to hear this, it seemed so sudden, so reactionary in many cases], and wasn't just done in the moment. Regardless, July has shown he can have very devastating reactions to his opponents, whether in real time or practiced beforehand - drone drill vs BeSt on Troy during his golden mouse OSL comes to mind - which is the kind of play that I think can be very successful.
Look out idra. There's two new zergs in town, and we all know you feel ZvZ is your worst SC2 matchup.
Honestly if you want to see what pro SCBW players that will be switch to SC2 just check when their contracts end with their current teams. I totally expect Nada to switch over to SC2 when his current contract ends.
there is very little reason for any new talent to join SCBW and little reason for players who arnt currently successful to stay.
On September 11 2010 12:22 Jubinell wrote: korean programmers move on to SC2 and TLers rejoice?? what a sad sad day...
Why?
Progamers that don't actually play on TV anymore don't impact our enjoyment of the game besides nostalgia. It's a lot better for us to see them once again on a new stage where they can not only get air-time (like going to ACE), but actually be competitive.
This isn't 200-yearofyourchoice, July being in SC1 doesn't do anything new. July being in SC2 hopefully will.
On September 11 2010 12:22 Jubinell wrote: korean programmers move on to SC2 and TLers rejoice?? what a sad sad day...
So a legend like July should stick to spinning his wheels in a game he can no longer compete in rather than take a chance at revolutionizing a new game where his skills and experience will likely set him apart? That is a very selfish sentiment for someone who is supposedly a "fan" of BW.
It would be terrible if players at the top of the game like Stork/Flash/Jaedong switched over, because they have so much more to offer, but guys like July/Nada/Boxer who have already left their mark on BW and aren't likely to do much more in a game that is constantly evolving, can really progress SC2 if they switch now. I would rather see them competing in and revolutionizing a game like SC2 than relegated to being mere figureheads in BW even though I enjoy that game much more.
On September 11 2010 12:22 Jubinell wrote: korean programmers move on to SC2 and TLers rejoice?? what a sad sad day...
So a legend like July should stick to spinning his wheels in a game he can no longer compete in rather than take a chance at revolutionizing a new game where his skills and experience will likely set him apart? That is a very selfish sentiment for someone who is supposedly a "fan" of BW.
It would be terrible if players at the top of the game like Stork/Flash/Jaedong switched over, because they have so much more to offer, but guys like July/Nada/Boxer who have already left their mark on BW and aren't likely to do much more in a game that is constantly evolving, can really progress SC2 if they switch now. I would rather see them competing in and revolutionizing a game like SC2 than relegated to being mere figureheads in BW even though I enjoy that game much more.
A mod has already asked that this not be used as a Brood War vs SC2 thread, please stop the "subtle" backhanded compliments.
On September 10 2010 14:46 deafhobbit wrote: Sc2 - Where former BW pro gamer retire after they can't keep up with a more APM intensive game.
Actually, July has massive APM. Had well around 500(sometimes 600) in his peak, so I don't think speed is the problem.
and thus switched to a game where the general level of mechanical skill is lower.
Can you prove that? Mechanical skill seems to be on par with each other with extra, mechanics thrown in to make things more attention based read: Larvae/Chrono Boost.
I'd agree with in combat micro but, as it stands thats a dubious assumption due to the novelty of the game everyone makes so many mistakes *watch the GSL* that micro is often not needed to a high regard because you mostly out number or out comp the opposing player.
I have yet to see an example of stark game mechanics where BW requires MORE apm. Yes SC2 has mechanics made simpler but there has been so many more added that I don't see either game having a difference in skill.
Besides, what determines skill in a game isn't the mechanics it'self it's your opponent.
Did you seriously just argue that SC2 takes as much APM as BW? MBS, 12 unit selection, manually making each worker mine, no smart-casting....those things alone make the requirements in BW like 100 apm higher at least.
On September 11 2010 12:24 HazMat wrote: Dun, dun, dun, it has begun.
Foreigners beating Koreans was fun while it lasted.
Brazilian football doesnt make soccer any less interesting.
If anything, this will greatly strengthen zerg as July is the master of battle mechanics, thus named "TuSin" the god of war. Pre-Muta stack era's offensive zergling lurker mechanic, where lurker tanks and zerglings dps has his name on it. Before you go do your anti-Korean cries, even though you will never face a pro Korean or a pro, think about the new mechanics that will be introduced to the game.
On September 11 2010 14:16 MoriyaGXP wrote: he said that "I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original"
so SC2 is much harder than SC:BW now? o.O
JD and Flash please switch NOW!!!!
I'd say that SC2 is easier to learn to play than BW, but may prove to require more skill in the long run, the game is quite infantile in its play-style and it will definitely evolve constantly until at least a couple of years after the final expansion - likely until it dies out same as BW (which still isn't completely dead). I'm not trying to argue one game or the other - I like both equally.
Shouldn't he be moving on with his life? I mean, I can't imagine his salary will be large, even if the potential (maximum) reward is high. But that will depend on his ability to succeed, and odds on, this is low, just statistically.
You really don't want to come out in 5 years, nearly age 30, with no useful real world skill set, and minimal savings.
On September 11 2010 18:02 FirstProbe wrote: Shouldn't he be moving on with his life? I mean, I can't imagine his salary will be large, even if the potential (maximum) reward is high. But that will depend on his ability to succeed, and odds on, this is low, just statistically.
You really don't want to come out in 5 years, nearly age 30, with no useful real world skill set, and minimal savings.
Move on? Why should he move on if he has a chance of getting 85k $ by doing something he loves and is beast at?
On September 11 2010 18:02 FirstProbe wrote: Shouldn't he be moving on with his life? I mean, I can't imagine his salary will be large, even if the potential (maximum) reward is high. But that will depend on his ability to succeed, and odds on, this is low, just statistically.
You really don't want to come out in 5 years, nearly age 30, with no useful real world skill set, and minimal savings.
It's extremely +EV for July to become an SC2 progamer, there's plenty of money to be earned and he is one of the favorites to win big parts of it. Besides that after retiring as a progamer himself he will have plenty of career choices like becoming a coach, a caster and so on.
"Minimal savings"? The guy has had his living expenses paid for him for the last few years while having a steady stream of salary and the occasional tournament win. I can't imagine a person practicing 10h+ a day being able to get rid of such amounts of money.
On September 11 2010 18:02 FirstProbe wrote: Shouldn't he be moving on with his life? I mean, I can't imagine his salary will be large, even if the potential (maximum) reward is high. But that will depend on his ability to succeed, and odds on, this is low, just statistically.
You really don't want to come out in 5 years, nearly age 30, with no useful real world skill set, and minimal savings.
do what you enjoy... not whats going to get you a big house in 10 years time.
He still gets paid 85k? That's pretty good! I thought he was B-team by now!, and earning peanuts. Even with 500k though, that won't set you up for life.
I still don't think he'll succeed in SC2. That's just my opinion. Being a caster is far more dependent on your personality than on your SC experience, and I don't think this is an option for him. The coach thing may be an option; but again, that is also rather dependent on other factors.
On September 10 2010 14:28 SichuanPanda wrote: Sad to see BW going the way of the Dodo but also great to see some of our old favorites will be returning to try their hand at SC2.
Yeah, I got this quote from page 2 of this thread, but I really had to laugh at the expression.. Anyways, I am very excited as to see what the old PGs have up their sleeves, and I also wouldn't mind reading why JulyZerg thinks that SC2 is more difficult than SC. I'm an avid SC2 gamer and I never really played SC but even to me SC2 looks easier (in terms of GUI). Maybe he meant strategy?
On September 11 2010 18:02 FirstProbe wrote: Shouldn't he be moving on with his life? I mean, I can't imagine his salary will be large, even if the potential (maximum) reward is high. But that will depend on his ability to succeed, and odds on, this is low, just statistically.
You really don't want to come out in 5 years, nearly age 30, with no useful real world skill set, and minimal savings.
do what you enjoy... not whats going to get you a big house in 10 years time.
I strongly disagree with these types of statements. Life is far more than having fun. Eventually you'll have responsibilities, and a career will be important. It would be great if you could have both, but most people don't (get to) have one's cake, and eat it too.
On September 11 2010 18:02 FirstProbe wrote: Shouldn't he be moving on with his life? I mean, I can't imagine his salary will be large, even if the potential (maximum) reward is high. But that will depend on his ability to succeed, and odds on, this is low, just statistically.
You really don't want to come out in 5 years, nearly age 30, with no useful real world skill set, and minimal savings.
do what you enjoy... not whats going to get you a big house in 10 years time.
I strongly disagree with these types of statements. Life is far more than having fun. Eventually you'll have responsibilities, and a career will be important. It would be great if you could have both, but most people don't (get to) have one's cake, and eat it too.
He's julyzerg, he already has a career of e-sports, he'll always be able to be a coach or w/e after he stops playing, I strongly disagree with you statements.
On September 11 2010 18:24 FirstProbe wrote: Even with 500k though, that won't set you up for life.
What? 500k is huge. You can get 50k a year with just interest on a bank account (which is nearly the same as median families in USA earn). Also progaming is growing and his involment with it will surely enable him to get a job there of some kind even if he completely fails with his own progamer career. How is that not enough?
On September 11 2010 18:24 FirstProbe wrote: Even with 500k though, that won't set you up for life.
What? 500k is huge. You can get 50k a year with just interest on a bank account (which is nearly the same as median families in USA earn). Also progaming is growing and his involment with it will surely enable him to get a job there of some kind even if he completely fails with his own progamer career. How is that not enough?
Banks don't give you 10% interest. Your stats would work with $5 million.
On September 11 2010 18:24 FirstProbe wrote: Even with 500k though, that won't set you up for life.
What? 500k is huge. You can get 50k a year with just interest on a bank account (which is nearly the same as median families in USA earn). Also progaming is growing and his involment with it will surely enable him to get a job there of some kind even if he completely fails with his own progamer career. How is that not enough?
Because South Korea or US isn't Ukraine.
You can live with it, but the question is how long. There is a point where there will possible be a wife and family. 500k ain't enough for rest of the life in a place like Korea, US or even Europe.
On September 11 2010 18:29 FirstProbe wrote: I strongly disagree with these types of statements. Life is far more than having fun. Eventually you'll have responsibilities, and a career will be important. It would be great if you could have both, but most people don't (get to) have one's cake, and eat it too.
Why is a career important, if not to have fun? Money doesn't buy happiness. Enough money buys happiness. I would think that July will have enough money.
this killer sweet first all the BW gamers that you dont get to see much come out then sooner or later were gonna start to get some big fish that wanna try out.
@shieldbreak Does it matter what race he plays in sc2 ? Last time I checked TossGirl is a Terran and not a Protoss although she plays sc1 and isn't transitioning to sc2.
It's a new game and new race interests can rise because of this. Even if we like to see him go play as Zerg doesn't mean he will. Same for all other ex-BW pro gamers.
On September 11 2010 18:24 FirstProbe wrote: Even with 500k though, that won't set you up for life.
What? 500k is huge. You can get 50k a year with just interest on a bank account (which is nearly the same as median families in USA earn). Also progaming is growing and his involment with it will surely enable him to get a job there of some kind even if he completely fails with his own progamer career. How is that not enough?
Please show me these banks so I can retire right now.
On September 11 2010 18:24 FirstProbe wrote: Even with 500k though, that won't set you up for life.
What? 500k is huge. You can get 50k a year with just interest on a bank account (which is nearly the same as median families in USA earn). Also progaming is growing and his involment with it will surely enable him to get a job there of some kind even if he completely fails with his own progamer career. How is that not enough?
Please show me these banks so I can retire right now.
BTW, $500k is peanuts in the long run.
10% interest on a bank account? that's stretching it... by a lot.
On September 11 2010 18:24 FirstProbe wrote: Even with 500k though, that won't set you up for life.
What? 500k is huge. You can get 50k a year with just interest on a bank account (which is nearly the same as median families in USA earn). Also progaming is growing and his involment with it will surely enable him to get a job there of some kind even if he completely fails with his own progamer career. How is that not enough?
Please show me these banks so I can retire right now.
BTW, $500k is peanuts in the long run.
10% interest on a bank account? that's stretching it... by a lot.
Besides, interest hardly stays ahead of inflation. So even if you get 5-6% from the bank, the currency is probably losing 3-4% in value during the same time. So in several years, the base of $500k that is earning interest is worth far less. It isn't even remotely close to enough to be set for life... unless they plan to live under the poverty line.
On September 11 2010 18:24 FirstProbe wrote: He still gets paid 85k? That's pretty good! I thought he was B-team by now!, and earning peanuts. Even with 500k though, that won't set you up for life.
I still don't think he'll succeed in SC2. That's just my opinion. Being a caster is far more dependent on your personality than on your SC experience, and I don't think this is an option for him. The coach thing may be an option; but again, that is also rather dependent on other factors.
$85k is the first prize reward in the GSL. He's saying that if he won the GSL he would make $85k, which is nice for a year, but there's no guarantee he would win.
On September 12 2010 04:37 Skeyser wrote: Yeah 500k is the price of a decent house nowadays, won't support you for a life time.
"decent" house lol, you paid too much for yours then. average house would run around ~200k and thats to fully pay it off.
anyways 500k is just this year they are doubling that next and who knows what will happen if the GSL proves to be succesfull
wtf happened to this thread... well at least its better than LOL BW>SC2
but seriously, house prices are totally different everywhere, every city, every town, every block.. my girlfriends house/neighborhood all the houses are pretty plain but cost 1million minimum. Her house is like 3-4m (2 lots and just badass overall 20+feet hedges) alternatively, in my neighborhood (only like 5 miles away) the same size house is probably 300-500k. But she is 5 steps from the beach, whereas I am .5 miles.
Doesn't the pricing of houses vary a lot depending on where you buy it? In the middle of nowhere compared to the core of a metropolis is easily a differential of x10 in costs. Some of the costs posted here seems to be in pretty well populated areas, not where you would want to live if you want to live decently while still staying cheap...
Oh as for topic, I don't care. I havn't been watching BW for long so I don't really know him.
On September 11 2010 18:24 FirstProbe wrote: Even with 500k though, that won't set you up for life.
What? 500k is huge. You can get 50k a year with just interest on a bank account (which is nearly the same as median families in USA earn). Also progaming is growing and his involment with it will surely enable him to get a job there of some kind even if he completely fails with his own progamer career. How is that not enough?
I eagerly await the name of the bank that you use.
On September 12 2010 18:09 blagoonga123 wrote: Hmm I was looking at sc2ranks and there was a 1400 zerg named sAviOr.
I'm like 99% sure that he's not the real thing, but it would still be kinda cool if it were.
hes actually 1700 now, 8th in korea points wise probably some A/B level korean amateur that moved to sc2...seeing as how theres thousands of them i guess the quickest way to check is to compare hotkeys but that would be unreliable
edit- definitely not him. completely different hotkeys. unless he changed them to actually make sense with a sc2 transition because they definitely made no sense in BW.
On September 12 2010 18:09 blagoonga123 wrote: Hmm I was looking at sc2ranks and there was a 1400 zerg named sAviOr.
I'm like 99% sure that he's not the real thing, but it would still be kinda cool if it were.
hes actually 1700 now, 8th in korea points wise probably some A/B level korean amateur that moved to sc2...seeing as how theres thousands of them i guess the quickest way to check is to compare hotkeys but that would be unreliable
edit- definitely not him. completely different hotkeys. unless he changed them to actually make sense with a sc2 transition because they definitely made no sense in BW.
not like it would matter, savior and the rest of the match fixers are banned from GSL anyways.
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
User was temp banned for this post.
are you fucking serious? have you not seen july play during his OSL runs or just his games in general? the guy is a fucking beast he created muta micro dont disrespect tushin! god of war! scrub
first of what I hope to be many bwers coming over. I enjoy BW, but as long as they're both[bw & sc2] around it will just divide more than unify. Granted BW has more of a foothold since it's been around for so long/ is a household name, but seems like sc2 is the future.
On September 15 2010 10:44 bjwithbraces wrote: first of what I hope to be many bwers coming over. I enjoy BW, but as long as they're both[bw & sc2] around it will just divide more than unify. Granted BW has more of a foothold since it's been around for so long/ is a household name, but seems like sc2 is the future.
i love the BW scene first and foremost. if you can hack it in BW, go ahead and stay, you are probably being paid a salary if you are good enough.
if you want to switch to sc2, go ahead. i don't think it's as a good of game as bw... but fuck, its popular right now and theres money to be made in the tournies at least.
i just cant stand gretech trying to kill of the best RTS of all time due to greed.
i just cant stand gretech trying to kill of the best RTS of all time due to greed.
By that logic you can't understand why blizzard even came out with starcraft BW in the first place, let alone SC2, or why car companies come out with new models every year.
i just cant stand gretech trying to kill of the best RTS of all time due to greed.
By that logic you can't understand why blizzard even came out with starcraft BW in the first place, let alone SC2, or why car companies come out with new models every year.
he didn't say "can't understand" he said "can't stand"
On September 10 2010 14:15 Vz0 wrote: 1500 diamond, about right.
I just LoL at all those retards that were like, OMG WHEN KOREAN PRO SWITCH OVER, ITS GG for NA/EU.
No its not. Shutup. Koreans are human like the rest of the world.
There are certain players that are gifted such as (perhaps) Flash and Jaedong. But thats flash and jaedong. THAT IS NOT ALL KOREAN PLAYERS. People mix the two up.
User was temp banned for this post.
are you fucking serious? have you not seen july play during his OSL runs or just his games in general? the guy is a fucking beast he created muta micro dont disrespect tushin! god of war! scrub
OSL has nothing to do with SC2. He's a good player, not 100% of that is transferable. Don't be silly.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Milkis/1284092373_1.jpg)
. I want to see July completely dominate everyone in SC2! 
