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On August 28 2010 04:48 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:42 opiuman wrote:On August 28 2010 04:39 deo1 wrote:While the general opinion is that siege tanks need to be addressed, I'm concerned that this nerf might take the 'siege' out of the siege tank. Sieged tanks now do less base damage to units of both light and armored types than unsieged tanks. eg. Unsieged damage per unit time (before and after this potential patch): light 14.4 armored 24 sieged damage per unit time (before patch): light 16.7 armored 16.7 sieged damage per unit time (after patch): light 11.6 armored 16.7 Before, sieged did more base damage to light, now it does less damage to both types. So the only benefit to sieged tanks as a result of this patch is range and splash. These benefits are more difficult to analyze because the sieged tank will have variable dps in addition to its unsieged mode depending on its sight and the speed of its target traveling through its sight range. As well as the number and "clumpness" of those target units. However, it's easy to imagine many scenarios where there's no reason to siege at all. Will this lead to balance? Maybe. But it might seriously alter the function of one of the coolest units in the SC universe. Source and method: + Show Spoiler + This is however, the same way it was in sc1. Tanks always did more DPS unsieged but the sieging buys you the range at the cost of less DPS Please don't make stuff up. Sieged tanks had more dps in Broodwar. The only reason to fight unsieged was when you needed to be more mobile, like when clearing out an abandoned base or trying to kill someone with 2 fac.
Sorry if it's incorrect but I recall both Tasteless and Artosis mentioning this and them having a 5 minute discussion about it. Apologies if I am wrong though.
EDIT: Doh it appears you are right difference is close though.
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On August 28 2010 04:45 Playguuu wrote:
Completely idiotic changes. Sure they're acknowledging there is something wrong with the matchups, but I don't see these changes really doing much. Marauders do too much damage to armored, hydras shouldn't have a unit type other than biological, roaches should be only 1.5 supply or given back 2 armor, crawlers shouldn't take forever to root, neural parasite shouldn't be on a timer/or shouldn't require research, infantry upgrades shouldn't be so cheap, marauders should take 20 damage when they stim.
I could go on, but I just think they're fixing the wrong things. Yeah reapers were annoying, I think that's more a problem with how weak zerg is early game instead of just nerfing everything. They could have increased roach range by .5. Instead of fixing BCs (BC is a problem?), maybe make spire not take forever to build? Maybe give hydra 10 more health.
Also zealot nerf? I didn't find that much of a problem, sometimes it made me hesitate to put up my expo, but if I expanded early I knew I'd be under pressure or have to d up for a while. Still not sure why concussive shells cost 50/50 compared to other "gimme" upgrades like ovie speed. Poor zerg, poor protoss really didn't deserve nerfs.
We got ourselves a zerg player here.
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Seems like a decent patch. Warpgate cooldown nerf seemed in order, and the zealot build time increase shouldn't matter too much except in PvZ. 10 gate pressure is much more difficult and zerg fast expo becomes much easier again. It might liven up PvP a bit more towards teching strategies though that will probably just mean colossi wars a bit more.
Tank nerf is pretty huge offcourse and will change quite some things. Hydra's become much better in TvZ though I think they'll remain unfavored. Lings also do much better now as they can at least hold a shot from a tank and more importantly the splash will decimate lings much less. Banelings also have a much easier time reaching marine lines with this now. Might be a little harsh for TvZ though.
For PvT it will only lopside the matchup even more towards bio. There was some variety in bio + tanks, bio + hellions and bio+banshee's but tanks should be obsolete now in this matchup. As the only unit they do great damage against now is the stalker.
Finally the ultralisk nerf and BC nerf hardly matter. The BC was very strong against ground but with strong air counters available for each race I dont think this really was a problem, I guess stalkers can counter them almost cost efficiently now. The ultra nerf was not really neccesary I think on it's own but with the nerfed tank ultraling might have been too strong against T otherwise. Ultra's against toss weren't impressive and are a waste of money now imo.
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On August 28 2010 04:48 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:42 opiuman wrote:On August 28 2010 04:39 deo1 wrote:While the general opinion is that siege tanks need to be addressed, I'm concerned that this nerf might take the 'siege' out of the siege tank. Sieged tanks now do less base damage to units of both light and armored types than unsieged tanks. eg. Unsieged damage per unit time (before and after this potential patch): light 14.4 armored 24 sieged damage per unit time (before patch): light 16.7 armored 16.7 sieged damage per unit time (after patch): light 11.6 armored 16.7 Before, sieged did more base damage to light, now it does less damage to both types. So the only benefit to sieged tanks as a result of this patch is range and splash. These benefits are more difficult to analyze because the sieged tank will have variable dps in addition to its unsieged mode depending on its sight and the speed of its target traveling through its sight range. As well as the number and "clumpness" of those target units. However, it's easy to imagine many scenarios where there's no reason to siege at all. Will this lead to balance? Maybe. But it might seriously alter the function of one of the coolest units in the SC universe. Source and method: + Show Spoiler + This is however, the same way it was in sc1. Tanks always did more DPS unsieged but the sieging buys you the range at the cost of less DPS Please don't make stuff up. Sieged tanks had more dps in Broodwar. The only reason to fight unsieged was when you needed to be more mobile, like when clearing out an abandoned base or trying to kill someone with 2 fac.
Still, the only light units with enough health for this to matter once you have a reasonable number of Tanks are Zealots, which just got nerfed, and Hydras, which still suck vs Tanks and needed help in ZvT.
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All good. Thanks Blizz.
Issues resolved :
Strenght of Protoss All-in Gate pushes v All
Strenght of Mass Reaper v Zerg
Rediculousness of Tanks even in small numbers as a support (who needs Medivacs when you got Tanks?)
Absurd uselessness of Ultras against PF and depot/turret lines (See Idra vs Drewbie on Kulas)
And about the 6-pool rush becoming too strong vs Toss, you people are just talking through your hats.
Here are the numbers:
Gateway + Chrono-boosted zealot now :
65 + 24.75 = 89.75 secs
After patch :
65 + 28.5 = 93.5 secs
That's 3,75 secs... Just send your scout 1 food earlier. Or if you're really that upset, open with Forge 45 + Cannon 40 = 85 secs.
That's almost 5 seconds more than what you have now. It's perfectly safe.
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On August 28 2010 04:51 pechkin wrote:
6 pool is not a strategy, its killed by pure workers, stop crying...
Oh you.
:3
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On August 28 2010 04:51 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:48 Medzo wrote:
Cant wait till tanks, reapers, BCs, and 2gate is nerfed! Only thing I would ask for now is removal of lair requirement for overseer for some scouting options.
@toss worried about 7pool. Just wall off when you scout it? Most maps and distances you should be worried you can check first. I think itll be annoying to deal with but definitely not unstoppable. yeah, just wall off and then watch as lings slowly kill your buildings... ?? good plan right?
This is the truth right here.
On August 28 2010 04:51 pechkin wrote:
6 pool is not a strategy, its killed by pure workers, stop crying...
This patch makes it a viable strat, and if your killing lings with workers you are losing. Try learning Protoss before you spout off stuff like this.
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On August 28 2010 04:44 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:43 Fission wrote:and i can't believe they'd nerf pvt (zealot changes) but not really do anything that would effect terran in tvp Tank changes seriously affect tvp. ok thats true actually i kinda skipped over that but it's DEFINITELY not what was hard about pvt what's hard about pvt is banshees and MARAUDERS marauders are SO FREAKING GOOD best unit in the game BY FAR i like to use CAPITAL LETTERS
(first post on TL, gonna try to make it a worthwhile read, even while this topic is getting drowned with posts 
As a P player myself, I agree that Marauders are amazing and need to be looked at somewhat.
I'm going to say that I'm not too afraid of 6-pools. On small maps vs Z, I always scout with my 9th probe that buids the pylon (and make a 10 gate). If I see the pool and the zerglings are already morphing/on the way, I just get ready to warp a pylon to block the 1-hex choke (where the zealot will spawn) and then cancel the pylon. This shouldn't change much.
DISCLAIMER: This is my theory from some experience of game-play, actual results in game may vary. I don't much like making theories - we will see in practice, but this seems likely to happen (and I've seen some more experienced P players post the same idea):
vs T, early marauder(s) with concussive shells are incredibly powerful. Here's the situation: you always have to open the same way vs T (as all you P know very well, straight to Stalker). You absolutely cannot say that if you scout, you can go zealot first - because if you see a tech lab, it could be either a Marauder or Stalker.
Now u have a stalker which loses pretty badly 1v1 a marauder, and u need to make zealot(s) in case you get rushed with concussive shells. You also need either more stalkers - so that while your zealots are being kited and killed, you are actually shooting the marauders somehow - or sentries to block the marauders somewhere so that your zealots can actually attack them (I prefer sentries). But it's going to be much harder.
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Why Are protoss STILL crying. This patch was in beta and it didnt make 6 pool op what so ever.
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On August 28 2010 04:52 proxY_ wrote:
This doesn't address the problems with TvP specifically the early bio pressure. It in fact hurts protoss because it raises the time that it takes for the zealot to spawn. I'm happy for zerg, this should help them out a great deal though I think they'll still face problems but the protoss nerf makes absolutely no sense and I think TvP is going to continue to have the problems that it currently has.
Seems like P was nerfed to help the incredibly cheesy PvP matchups. Definitely no help against early MM pressure (in fact it hurts like you said) but it should help in the midgame somewhat because of the nerfed siege tanks.
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On August 28 2010 04:30 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:25 Radio.active wrote:
ok a small group of like 5 marauders are officially stronger than a group of six tanks, it'll completely break tvt in half like none other.
siege tanks will do about 35 damage plus like 10 dmg splash. While the marauders have 125 life...
stim, get in close gfg baby. im pretty sure a group of roaches could walk up to the tanks fast enough and get in close to actually kill the tanks before the roaches die. A tank should feel like a tank, that can deal a large amount of damage. now they'll feel like a over priced paper weight. Read the fucking post. Honestly, half the people don't even read and start complaining.
Can I get an "Amen!" ?
I mean, I don't want to judge Terran skills based on Reading skills, but c'mon! Read the whole damn thing before crying and whining.
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On August 28 2010 04:51 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:48 Medzo wrote:
Cant wait till tanks, reapers, BCs, and 2gate is nerfed! Only thing I would ask for now is removal of lair requirement for overseer for some scouting options.
@toss worried about 7pool. Just wall off when you scout it? Most maps and distances you should be worried you can check first. I think itll be annoying to deal with but definitely not unstoppable. yeah, just wall off and then watch as lings slowly kill your buildings... ?? good plan right?
You wall off to wait for a zealot to come out........ and it is a good plan because it works.......
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On August 28 2010 04:50 Nitroflash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:45 RxN wrote:On August 28 2010 04:43 Nitroflash wrote:
We're talking PvZ, not ZvZ. Obviously you've never 6pooled a P only to have a zealot pop out right as your lings got to his wall or been a P player getting 6pooled. Yes, and if zerg can hold it off with just their drones, you should have no trouble holding it off for the few seconds it takes your zealot to pop. But I do enjoy your tears. Heaven forbid you can't 2-gate and a-move into the zerg base and inflict enough economic damage to make them have to play catch-up for the next 20 minutes. A Z can hold if off with their drones because they know that their lings will be popping sometime soon to attack the opposing lings back as long as they didn't do some kind of 14hatch, which would be rather stupid in ZvZ. However, once zerglings get inside a P's base the zealot is just too slow to do much at all as long as the Z micros a bit.
That hard to understand the major differences in those situations?
Zerg builds in base always. Run-bys are not a threat for zerg at all, while it's pretty much a death blow for P. ling vs zeal, zerg has speed advantage. zvz, it's mirrored. Toss also can't afford to lose its fragile pylon or it's game, period. Zerg just has to micro drones until lings arive and hold off the pool.
It's not indefensible at all, but the nerf sure as shit invites 6 pool aggresion.
It's not even remotely close.
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On August 28 2010 04:55 AnodyneSea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:51 travis wrote:On August 28 2010 04:48 Medzo wrote:
Cant wait till tanks, reapers, BCs, and 2gate is nerfed! Only thing I would ask for now is removal of lair requirement for overseer for some scouting options.
@toss worried about 7pool. Just wall off when you scout it? Most maps and distances you should be worried you can check first. I think itll be annoying to deal with but definitely not unstoppable. yeah, just wall off and then watch as lings slowly kill your buildings... ?? good plan right? You wall off to wait for a zealot to come out........ and it is a good plan because it works.......
It's a bad plan. If you cancel the pylon, your behind minerals, if you let it build you just let the zerg expand guilt free WHILE eating your pylons up.
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Btw, i don't know which way the warpgate argument is going, but zealots have a lower CD than the other units. I play terran, so naturally it was the very first thing that grabbed my attention, since i used to think that warpgate cd was universal.
I like what they're doing for Zerg, since i used to be a zerg player in BW. I think zerg style should be more for forcing map control and expoing whenever possible. If they can get their macro on foot a bit faster early game, the rest will take off in no time, allowing them to take their slightly underpowered units and just toss them at the enemy lines like they just don't care.
Also, don't forget, zealots got nerfed cause of powerful 2 gate cheeses. Its only appropriate that now protoss themselves have become more susceptible to cheese themselves ^.^
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Should be a interesting patch. I wonder if there will be any other changes in it or if it will be just be these things. It will be interesting times in the near future.
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Pretty interesting changes. Some adjustments with the bioball/marauder would have been okay too.
The Zerg "nerf" isn´t really necessary at all, there are better things to patch at current Zerg, Infestors cry for some more love.
And the protosschange doesn´t make any sense at all. The PvP isn´t really fixed with it and vs. Zerg it could be though against early aggresions. Like Zerg there are better changes to make. Warp Prism survivabilty, make the robo-upgrades kinda (cheaper, not the range-upgrade). Or making observer not so visible for the enemy.
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On August 28 2010 04:15 hoovehand wrote:
it's an insanely huge nerf to siege tanks...
i wonder if it's overkill.
Hope thats a pun.
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these are probably the worst changes i've ever seen. tank damage reduction i can get on board with (although i believe something should be done with build time to compensate) but ultra, zealot, bc nerf are really WTF.
will wait till patch gets implemented before i say anything else.
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It effectively prevents a 2 gate zealot rush from the protoss base but I don't see how it helps against 2 gate proxy cheese in PvP. The counter to 2 gate proxy cheese is still dropping gateways and mirroring it. Since zealots build at the same rate how does this help at all? I don't know what blizzard is thinking here.
Nerfing ultralisks and BCs also makes absolutely no sense and raising warp gate cool down is just going to make early MM pressure much more difficult to hold off than it already is. I have to say I'm disappointed.
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EPT
