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On August 28 2010 04:39 deo1 wrote:While the general opinion is that siege tanks need to be addressed, I'm concerned that this nerf might take the 'siege' out of the siege tank. Sieged tanks now do less base damage to units of both light and armored types than unsieged tanks. eg. Unsieged damage per unit time (before and after this potential patch): light 14.4 armored 24 sieged damage per unit time (before patch): light 16.7 armored 16.7 sieged damage per unit time (after patch): light 11.6 armored 16.7 Before, sieged did more base damage to light, now it does less damage to both types. So the only benefit to sieged tanks as a result of this patch is range and splash. These benefits are more difficult to analyze because the sieged tank will have variable dps in addition to its unsieged mode depending on its sight and the speed of its target traveling through its sight range. As well as the number and "clumpness" of those target units. However, it's easy to imagine many scenarios where there's no reason to siege at all. Will this lead to balance? Maybe. But it might seriously alter the function of one of the coolest units in the SC universe. Source and method: + Show Spoiler +
This is however, the same way it was in sc1. Tanks always did more DPS unsieged but the sieging buys you the range at the cost of less DPS
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On August 28 2010 04:38 Nitroflash wrote:
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding how the warpgate has been nerfed: only zealot warp-in cooldowns are affected and other cooldowns will be the same. All other cooldowns were greater than 28 seconds to begin with.
Anyway, I really think 6pool will be stupidly powerful against P now. Maybe a 5 second increase to spawning pool build time would be good; it delays the 6pool by the 5 seconds more it takes to get your 1st zealot out but the 2gate still won't be as powerful.
oh thanks for pointing that out, they worded it pretty poorly
anyways yeah these zealot changes are bullshit for pvz
and i can't believe they'd nerf pvt (zealot changes) but not really do anything that would effect terran in tvp
i really hope they change stimmed marauders in some way..
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People are really saying 6 pool is going to be OP? Give me a break. It's awful and anyone with a brains knows it. It's so bad that you can still have your pool building as the lings arrive at your base in a ZvZ and still hold it off, even with them dropping a spine crawler on top of it.
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Awesome patch, even as a Terran. I never really enjoyed the mass reaper build, so I'm glad it got the nerf. Always hurts to see my favorite unit (siege tank) get nerfed, but it's not so bad, less friendly splash against my marines!
MMM with heavy drop style play has already been picking up popularity in TvT even before this announcement, so I expect to see it really pick up once this patch goes through, should be fun.
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leomon
Canada169 Posts
Everything about the patch seems good, except for the zealot nerf.
Spawning pools probably need a longer build time to compensate if 6 pool rushes prove to be far too hard to stop with the 5 second extra build time for zealots.
Poor siege tanks can't OHKO drones anymore? =[
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On August 28 2010 04:25 arsenic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:20 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On August 28 2010 04:18 arsenic wrote:
To defend a 6/7 pool as Protoss, you just need to set up your wall on top of your ramp in a manner that fully blocks it off with two Gates or Gate and Cybernetics. Yes, this is possible even on a map such as Steppes of War and you can do it in time if you scout after Pylon. Zerglings take years to take down a building and Zealots are good against them. This is a common misconception. Your wall (and the ONLY wall u can get in time against a ling rush) is one pylon, one gateway, and one zealot. Now you have to fully wall off (which screws you), or just hope to god your probe micro is as good as Bisu's (ie: which screws you). It's a bad bad bad nerf. I don't know if that's true. You could be right but my friend who plays Protoss has his wall up in plenty time when I 7 pool him on Steppes. Are you sure you are not defending it optimally, probably cutting a probe or two to get that second building up? You have to remember that Zerg is cutting considerably into their early game econ and losing larva repop doing this. You can cut a little bit and still be ahead.
It is true. This has been done for like ever. 1 Pylon + 1 gate and a one space gap is the way to wall as a Protoss. You plug the hole with the Zealot. And yes you will be cutting hard. 10 gate is a very big blow to a Protoss econ.
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and i can't believe they'd nerf pvt (zealot changes) but not really do anything that would effect terran in tvp
Tank changes seriously affect tvp.
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On August 28 2010 04:38 Nitroflash wrote:
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding how the warpgate has been nerfed: only zealot warp-in cooldowns are affected and other cooldowns will be the same. All other cooldowns were greater than 28 seconds to begin with.
Anyway, I really think 6pool will be stupidly powerful against P now. Maybe a 5 second increase to spawning pool build time would be good; it delays the 6pool by the 5 seconds more it takes to get your 1st zealot out but the 2gate still won't be as powerful.
Wait, what? Are you seriously telling me that Blizzard are unsyncing Warp Gate cooldowns if you produce Zealots + anything else? Do we seriously have to start ramping up our APM to check if something's coming off cooldown every second? I'm honestly considering race switching.
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Zealot change its senseless, looks like they want to zerg easier to expand in early game. But what about midgame, half of zealots in the army and more gates? ¬¬. They look just into early game as allways.
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We'll have to see how this plays out.
But imo, protoss needs some buff because aggressive zergs and early MM pushes are almost impossible to stop with this zealot nerf.
I think it might be wise to place Charge at the Cybernetics Core at for 100/100 and place halluciantion at the Twilight Council. This forces a decision between early warp gates or early charge, depending on the build of your enemy.
Moreover, I still think the 'switch buildings' terran players do, does not force a dedication to a certain build as is the case with the other races. Making lifting off costs for instance 25 gas, will force terran players to choose for one type of early harrass without affecting mid-game.
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On August 28 2010 04:41 Toran7 wrote:
the warpgate cooldown can actually be seen as a protoss macro buff, longer cooldowns mean more time to do other things before spawning a new set of units
No, it's definitely a nerf. Poor macro isn't a factor, you had the option of waiting before if you really needed to.
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We're talking PvZ, not ZvZ. Obviously you've never 6pooled a P only to have a zealot pop out right as your lings got to his wall or been a P player getting 6pooled.
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what about marauders? all the T has to do is mass marauder with stim and wins, especially broken in 2v2
when P has a counter a tier higher which has longer building time and more than 2 times higher price - broken
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On August 28 2010 04:41 Toran7 wrote:
the warpgate cooldown can actually be seen as a protoss macro buff, longer cooldowns mean more time to do other things before spawning a new set of units
are you serious. This is the kind of logic that makes me /facepalm. It can, in no way, be considered a buff. Without the buff, a protoss player could always just use those extra five seconds to macro anyway, and just have the option to warp in more units faster.
so yea... /facepalm
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I don't understand how people think this will nerf the Korean style 4 warpgate rush at all. The player using it doesn't make any zealots before he has pylons in his opponents base + warpgate tech, and warpgate production is front loaded so that initial 4 zealot attack will come at the exact same time in a post 1.1 game. Sure reinforcements will come later and later, but its those four initial zealots going nuts on your probes that makes this so dangerous anyway.
Furthermore it makes the Korean 4-gater safer from 2-gate as well as delaying the zealots of a 1 gate tech build defender, who is likely building his first zealot from a regular gateway. If anything it will make this strategy even stronger.
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On August 28 2010 04:43 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +and i can't believe they'd nerf pvt (zealot changes) but not really do anything that would effect terran in tvp Tank changes seriously affect tvp.
ok thats true actually i kinda skipped over that
but it's DEFINITELY not what was hard about pvt
what's hard about pvt is banshees and MARAUDERS
marauders are SO FREAKING GOOD
best unit in the game BY FAR
i like to use CAPITAL LETTERS
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On August 28 2010 04:43 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:25 arsenic wrote:On August 28 2010 04:20 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On August 28 2010 04:18 arsenic wrote:
To defend a 6/7 pool as Protoss, you just need to set up your wall on top of your ramp in a manner that fully blocks it off with two Gates or Gate and Cybernetics. Yes, this is possible even on a map such as Steppes of War and you can do it in time if you scout after Pylon. Zerglings take years to take down a building and Zealots are good against them. This is a common misconception. Your wall (and the ONLY wall u can get in time against a ling rush) is one pylon, one gateway, and one zealot. Now you have to fully wall off (which screws you), or just hope to god your probe micro is as good as Bisu's (ie: which screws you). It's a bad bad bad nerf. I don't know if that's true. You could be right but my friend who plays Protoss has his wall up in plenty time when I 7 pool him on Steppes. Are you sure you are not defending it optimally, probably cutting a probe or two to get that second building up? You have to remember that Zerg is cutting considerably into their early game econ and losing larva repop doing this. You can cut a little bit and still be ahead. It is true. This has been done for like ever. 1 Pylon + 1 gate and a one space gap is the way to wall as a Protoss. You plug the hole with the Zealot. And yes you will be cutting hard. 10 gate is a very big blow to a Protoss econ. Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:38 Nitroflash wrote:
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding how the warpgate has been nerfed: only zealot warp-in cooldowns are affected and other cooldowns will be the same. All other cooldowns were greater than 28 seconds to begin with.
Anyway, I really think 6pool will be stupidly powerful against P now. Maybe a 5 second increase to spawning pool build time would be good; it delays the 6pool by the 5 seconds more it takes to get your 1st zealot out but the 2gate still won't be as powerful. You misunderstand. The cooldown on warpgates is universal on all units.
No, read http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Warpgate
Edit--the period messed up the link.
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Wasnt this patch nerf for lots in beta and you still have no problem pulling probs a moving the lings and pulling back weak probes? Sorry a little work is to much for toss >.> Stop over reacting please
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Completely idiotic changes. Sure they're acknowledging there is something wrong with the matchups, but I don't see these changes really doing much. Marauders do too much damage to armored, hydras shouldn't have a unit type other than biological, roaches should be only 1.5 supply or given back 2 armor, crawlers shouldn't take forever to root, neural parasite shouldn't be on a timer/or shouldn't require research, infantry upgrades shouldn't be so cheap, marauders should take 20 damage when they stim.
I could go on, but I just think they're fixing the wrong things. Yeah reapers were annoying, I think that's more a problem with how weak zerg is early game instead of just nerfing everything. They could have increased roach range by .5. Instead of fixing BCs (BC is a problem?), maybe make spire not take forever to build? Maybe give hydra 10 more health.
Also zealot nerf? I didn't find that much of a problem, sometimes it made me hesitate to put up my expo, but if I expanded early I knew I'd be under pressure or have to d up for a while. Still not sure why concussive shells cost 50/50 compared to other "gimme" upgrades like ovie speed. Poor zerg, poor protoss really didn't deserve nerfs.
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On August 28 2010 04:43 Nitroflash wrote:
We're talking PvZ, not ZvZ. Obviously you've never 6pooled a P only to have a zealot pop out right as your lings got to his wall or been a P player getting 6pooled.
Yes, and if zerg can hold it off with just their drones, you should have no trouble holding it off for the few seconds it takes your zealot to pop.
But I do enjoy your tears. Heaven forbid you can't 2-gate and a-move into the zerg base and inflict enough economic damage to make them have to play catch-up for the next 20 minutes.
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EPT
