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On June 13 2013 22:10 Plansix wrote:
The issue I have with MLG is how they don’t really talk about what they are planning or how they are going to improve things. If they just came out and said:
“Ok folks, WCS season one caught us off guard and the timetable from Blizzard left of scrambling. Right now, we don’t have enough production staff or space to put on the show we want, but we are staffing up and getting a full, dedicated studio set up. But this stuff takes time and we hope to have it ready by the fall. We are going to do the best we can right now, but we want to focus our big effort on getting that studio set up.”
Most of the community would be happy. Even if a deal feel through for some reason, people would be willing to accept that not all deals work out.
But they don’t tell people anything. Even if there are business deals in the work that they can’t talk about, they could at least talk about what they would like to do for next season. Most of the community know is smart enough to know that this stuff takes time and you can’t just hire a full studio staff in a month. It’s the little stuff like this that could go a long way to making people happier with WCS.
Get out in front of stuff, talk to the community more and discuss things. Don’t just wait to respond to all the criticism to your latest press release.
The problem is that they aren't the only league in NA, and they can't afford to throw their biggest partner (Blizzard) under the bus repeatedly.
I think that is why they are just taking a lot of the heat without replying much.
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On June 13 2013 22:19 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 22:10 Plansix wrote:
The issue I have with MLG is how they don’t really talk about what they are planning or how they are going to improve things. If they just came out and said:
“Ok folks, WCS season one caught us off guard and the timetable from Blizzard left of scrambling. Right now, we don’t have enough production staff or space to put on the show we want, but we are staffing up and getting a full, dedicated studio set up. But this stuff takes time and we hope to have it ready by the fall. We are going to do the best we can right now, but we want to focus our big effort on getting that studio set up.”
Most of the community would be happy. Even if a deal feel through for some reason, people would be willing to accept that not all deals work out.
But they don’t tell people anything. Even if there are business deals in the work that they can’t talk about, they could at least talk about what they would like to do for next season. Most of the community know is smart enough to know that this stuff takes time and you can’t just hire a full studio staff in a month. It’s the little stuff like this that could go a long way to making people happier with WCS.
Get out in front of stuff, talk to the community more and discuss things. Don’t just wait to respond to all the criticism to your latest press release.
The problem is that they aren't the only league in NA, and they can't afford to throw their biggest partner (Blizzard) under the bus repeatedly. I think that is why they are just taking a lot of the heat without replying much.
I totally get that and understand that they can't just dump on Blizzard. But at the same time, there is a way to say "Yo, this is what we are working on and how we want to improve." The silent is the part that kills them most.
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On June 13 2013 22:19 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 22:10 Plansix wrote:
The issue I have with MLG is how they don’t really talk about what they are planning or how they are going to improve things. If they just came out and said:
“Ok folks, WCS season one caught us off guard and the timetable from Blizzard left of scrambling. Right now, we don’t have enough production staff or space to put on the show we want, but we are staffing up and getting a full, dedicated studio set up. But this stuff takes time and we hope to have it ready by the fall. We are going to do the best we can right now, but we want to focus our big effort on getting that studio set up.”
Most of the community would be happy. Even if a deal feel through for some reason, people would be willing to accept that not all deals work out.
But they don’t tell people anything. Even if there are business deals in the work that they can’t talk about, they could at least talk about what they would like to do for next season. Most of the community know is smart enough to know that this stuff takes time and you can’t just hire a full studio staff in a month. It’s the little stuff like this that could go a long way to making people happier with WCS.
Get out in front of stuff, talk to the community more and discuss things. Don’t just wait to respond to all the criticism to your latest press release.
The problem is that they aren't the only league in NA, and they can't afford to throw their biggest partner (Blizzard) under the bus repeatedly. I think that is why they are just taking a lot of the heat without replying much.
Well, Adam and Sundance haven't been to shy in dropping subtle hints at how the schedule and Blizzard were a big part of the problems but refrained from saying much about how they want to improve their own part.
Which is fine with me, since I do believe that Blizzard did a less than stellar job from the beginning and is slowly starting to get it together and I don't really expect a company to share their plans for the immediate future especially when there's a lot of space for innovation still and you might want to be the first ones to do something.
But still, it would have been nice, and I hope they do improve. ToD summed up ESL's process quite nicely and while I do think they had it somewhat easier due to their larger staff and the better and more qualified available talent, there's no doubt that MLG could have and should have done better even with their potentially lacking resources. You don't always need money or outstanding talent to improve a broadcast, sometimes all it needs can simply be a bit of imagination and a lot of dedication and it that department I didn't feel like MLG as a whole gave it their all.
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On June 13 2013 22:02 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 21:14 scypio wrote:
Our hosts seem to agree that Terran needs nerf and is over-performing. Somehow the numbers do not indicate that, as terran won 3/7 premier tournaments and has only 8/32 players in WCS KR and 10/32 in WCS Europe Premier.
So... can someone point out the Terran players that have performed beyond their skill level and out-performed their protoss/zerg counterparts due to Terran being OP? Which protoss player should have taken their spot?
Here is the pool:
Innovation - WCS S1 Finals Champion
Mvp - WCS S1 Europe Champion
Yoda - IEM S7 Champion (note that this was played before the game was even released)
Innovation - WCS KR runner-up
Flash - MLG Dallas runner-up
Innovation, Flash, Bomber, Fantasy, Supernova, Bbyong, Maru, Keen - WCS KR Premier League S2 players (8)
MVP, MMA, ForGG, Shuttle, Lucifron, Happy, Beastyqt, Bunny, Dayshi, Thorzain - WCS EU Premier League S2 players
The hosts agree that Hellbat drops need to be nerfed. It's hard to disagree with that really. What I don't agree with is the method of nerfing they were talking about. Not that I like the fact that they can be healed but they should've asked themselves why Blizzard chose to do this in the first place. That would be interesting to investigate. You also always should try to determine what exactly would be the effects of a nerf in all match ups. Not just state a method of nerving. Still very much liked the show, don't get me wrong, just some constructive criticism to help make it better!
The hosts - especially Incontrol - had no idea how to play the devils advocate and what are the reasons not to nerf hellbat in a drastic manner - and taking away healing is a very drastic nerf.
I think there is a very important reason to do a smart nerf instead of a strong nerf: the T is not over-performing. Surprisingly - the WCS KR Premier League representation is at an all-time low with just 8 players.
Maybe I am wrong and the T is doing all too well vs Z and vs P at the pro level - if this is the case then I'd like to know which T's were doing too well. Who sniped their Zerg and Toss opponents out of a tourney / out of WCS not due to skill but thanks to hellbats or generally the Terran being OP? Which premier tournaments should have been taken by the Protoss instead in the perfectly-balanced world and who should have won them?
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On June 14 2013 00:32 scypio wrote:
Maybe I am wrong and the T is doing all too well vs Z and vs P at the pro level - if this is the case then I'd like to know which T's were doing too well. Who sniped their Zerg and Toss opponents out of a tourney / out of WCS not due to skill but thanks to hellbats or generally the Terran being OP? Which premier tournaments should have been taken by the Protoss instead in the perfectly-balanced world and who should have won them?
Terran is UP but it is hidden by Flash and INnoVaition plus Mvp beating up foreigners. The point with hellbats is not about balance per se but rather that it is not that fun to watch and that it is so superior to all other types of Terran drops that it is limiting variety.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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On June 14 2013 01:57 iNcontroL wrote:
Lolololol
Sigh... please clarify: is terran OP, if so why are there so few terrans in the WCS Premier Korea and which Terrans placed too high. Here is my small terran performance index:
Innovation - WCS S1 Finals Champion
Mvp - WCS S1 Europe Champion
Yoda - IEM S7 Champion (note that this was played before the game was even released)
Innovation - WCS KR runner-up
Flash - MLG Dallas runner-up
Innovation, Flash, Bomber, Fantasy, Supernova, Bbyong, Maru, Keen - WCS KR Premier League S2 players (8)
MVP, MMA, ForGG, Shuttle, Lucifron, Happy, Beastyqt, Bunny, Dayshi, Thorzain - WCS EU Premier League S2 players
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On June 14 2013 01:50 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 00:32 scypio wrote:
Maybe I am wrong and the T is doing all too well vs Z and vs P at the pro level - if this is the case then I'd like to know which T's were doing too well. Who sniped their Zerg and Toss opponents out of a tourney / out of WCS not due to skill but thanks to hellbats or generally the Terran being OP? Which premier tournaments should have been taken by the Protoss instead in the perfectly-balanced world and who should have won them? Terran is UP but it is hidden by Flash and INnoVaition plus Mvp beating up foreigners. The point with hellbats is not about balance per se but rather that it is not that fun to watch and that it is so superior to all other types of Terran drops that it is limiting variety.
I don't play much anymore but I watch and... how can you say the hellbat problem is not about balance ? Seriously, I think ToD pointed out perfectly what is wrong with hellbats in the last Stog : it's a strong unit that comes early in the game, cheap, with a small attack range and a slow movement speed, but that only weakness (slow movement speed) is completly balanced by the amazing speed of the medivac.
So yes, it's pretty much imbalance with medivac - they come too early, deal too much damage on probe / drone / scv and tank way too much at the early stage of the game.
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On June 14 2013 02:04 scypio wrote:Sigh... please clarify: is terran OP, if so why are there so few terrans in the WCS Premier Korea and which Terrans placed too high. Here is my small terran performance index: Innovation - WCS S1 Finals Champion Mvp - WCS S1 Europe Champion Yoda - IEM S7 Champion (note that this was played before the game was even released) Innovation - WCS KR runner-up Flash - MLG Dallas runner-up Innovation, Flash, Bomber, Fantasy, Supernova, Bbyong, Maru, Keen - WCS KR Premier League S2 players (8) MVP, MMA, ForGG, Shuttle, Lucifron, Happy, Beastyqt, Bunny, Dayshi, Thorzain - WCS EU Premier League S2 players
I feel sorry for Pros sticking their neck out and making a statement about balance, This site is rapidly becoming " Blizzards Battle Net " where posters dominate with random shit and facts based on their own poor play or taken out of context
Enjoyed the Show with Tod,Geoff and Khaldor. Very well done look forward to watching you cast DreamHack Geoff
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On June 14 2013 02:18 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 02:04 scypio wrote:On June 14 2013 01:57 iNcontroL wrote:
Lolololol Sigh... please clarify: is terran OP, if so why are there so few terrans in the WCS Premier Korea and which Terrans placed too high. Here is my small terran performance index: Innovation - WCS S1 Finals Champion Mvp - WCS S1 Europe Champion Yoda - IEM S7 Champion (note that this was played before the game was even released) Innovation - WCS KR runner-up Flash - MLG Dallas runner-up Innovation, Flash, Bomber, Fantasy, Supernova, Bbyong, Maru, Keen - WCS KR Premier League S2 players (8) MVP, MMA, ForGG, Shuttle, Lucifron, Happy, Beastyqt, Bunny, Dayshi, Thorzain - WCS EU Premier League S2 players I feel sorry for Pros sticking their neck out and making a statement about balance, This site is rapidly becoming " Blizzards Battle Net " where posters dominate with random shit and facts based on their own poor play or taken out of context Enjoyed the Show with Tod,Geoff and Khaldor. Very well done look forward to watching you cast DreamHack Geoff
Sorry, I feel this is a legit question. If the T is OP why doesn't it show in their actual performance in top tournaments? And if it shows - who performed better than expected?
The list is just for reference, you can make your own if you feel something important is missing.
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http://www.aligulac.com/
Terrans have > 50% WR on both of their MU's in general, and are also more represented in the top end.
However, Hellbat abuse just started past 2 weeks, if you've been following games you kinda have to be blind to not see how blatantly overpowered it is. I don't wanna say I saw it coming.. but I saw it coming ;p.
Incontrol was absolutely hilarious.
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On June 14 2013 02:33 sibs wrote:http://www.aligulac.com/Terrans have > 50% WR on both of their MU's in general, and are also more represented in the top end. However, Hellbat abuse just started past 2 weeks, if you've been following games you kinda have to be blind to not see how blatantly overpowered it is. I don't wanna say I saw it coming.. but I saw it coming ;p. Incontrol was absolutely hilarious.
I'm getting tired of this. I asked two simple questions:
1. If the T is OP why doesn't it show in their actual performance in top tournaments?
2. And if it shows - who performed better than expected?
... and the answers I get from random ppl is all "yadayadayadayadayada hellbat so OP".
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I gave you answers.
The race as a whole is slightly overperforming, no I can't point to a tournament with 6 of 8 terran's in the final, the imbalance exists but it is small. TvZ was 54/55/55% in favor of terran past 3 months, TvP also favors terran in general.
I'm not going to address anything else because I know it's hopeless arguing with you, even terran pro gamers know this hellbat drop shenanigans is not going to last much longer without changes.
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On June 14 2013 02:33 sibs wrote:http://www.aligulac.com/Terrans have > 50% WR on both of their MU's in general, and are also more represented in the top end. However, Hellbat abuse just started past 2 weeks, if you've been following games you kinda have to be blind to not see how blatantly overpowered it is. I don't wanna say I saw it coming.. but I saw it coming ;p. Incontrol was absolutely hilarious.
The "transform in pussy mode" cracked me up.
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On June 14 2013 00:32 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 22:02 Penev wrote:On June 13 2013 21:14 scypio wrote:
Our hosts seem to agree that Terran needs nerf and is over-performing. Somehow the numbers do not indicate that, as terran won 3/7 premier tournaments and has only 8/32 players in WCS KR and 10/32 in WCS Europe Premier.
So... can someone point out the Terran players that have performed beyond their skill level and out-performed their protoss/zerg counterparts due to Terran being OP? Which protoss player should have taken their spot?
Here is the pool:
Innovation - WCS S1 Finals Champion
Mvp - WCS S1 Europe Champion
Yoda - IEM S7 Champion (note that this was played before the game was even released)
Innovation - WCS KR runner-up
Flash - MLG Dallas runner-up
Innovation, Flash, Bomber, Fantasy, Supernova, Bbyong, Maru, Keen - WCS KR Premier League S2 players (8)
MVP, MMA, ForGG, Shuttle, Lucifron, Happy, Beastyqt, Bunny, Dayshi, Thorzain - WCS EU Premier League S2 players
The hosts agree that Hellbat drops need to be nerfed. It's hard to disagree with that really. What I don't agree with is the method of nerfing they were talking about. Not that I like the fact that they can be healed but they should've asked themselves why Blizzard chose to do this in the first place. That would be interesting to investigate. You also always should try to determine what exactly would be the effects of a nerf in all match ups. Not just state a method of nerving. Still very much liked the show, don't get me wrong, just some constructive criticism to help make it better! The hosts - especially Incontrol - had no idea how to play the devils advocate and what are the reasons not to nerf hellbat in a drastic manner - and taking away healing is a very drastic nerf. I think there is a very important reason to do a smart nerf instead of a strong nerf: the T is not over-performing. Surprisingly - the WCS KR Premier League representation is at an all-time low with just 8 players. Maybe I am wrong and the T is doing all too well vs Z and vs P at the pro level - if this is the case then I'd like to know which T's were doing too well. Who sniped their Zerg and Toss opponents out of a tourney / out of WCS not due to skill but thanks to hellbats or generally the Terran being OP? Which premier tournaments should have been taken by the Protoss instead in the perfectly-balanced world and who should have won them?
Hmm, I think you didn't really understand what I meant. The hosts talked about a specific strategy to be op and, to a lesser extend, a specific unit. Not Terran as a whole. It is quite possible that nerfs to certain strategies and/ or units will not, after some time to adjust to the change, have a major effect on statistical balance (having said that, there are some indications that Terran have a slight advantage in both match ups).
Secondly, my goal was to offer some constructive criticism to the way the hosts handled the balance discussion not to start or continue a balance discussion myself. This is not the thread for that.
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On June 14 2013 02:44 sibs wrote:
I gave you answers.
The race as a whole is slightly overperforming, no I can't point to a tournament with 6 of 8 terran's in the final, the imbalance exists but it is small. TvZ was 54/55/55% in favor of terran past 3 months, TvP also favors terran in general.
I'm not going to address anything else because I know it's hopeless arguing with you, even terran pro gamers know this hellbat drop shenanigans is not going to last much longer without changes.
OK - so you point to aligulac stats that takes in everything like Go4SC2's, ZOTACs and other tournaments filled with lower-level player. And I'm talking about the top and I can't see terrans overperforming THERE.
As I stated before I would certainly support a smart nerf that limits the hellbat drop play in TvT.
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On June 14 2013 02:40 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 02:33 sibs wrote:http://www.aligulac.com/Terrans have > 50% WR on both of their MU's in general, and are also more represented in the top end. However, Hellbat abuse just started past 2 weeks, if you've been following games you kinda have to be blind to not see how blatantly overpowered it is. I don't wanna say I saw it coming.. but I saw it coming ;p. Incontrol was absolutely hilarious. I'm getting tired of this. I asked two simple questions: 1. If the T is OP why doesn't it show in their actual performance in top tournaments? 2. And if it shows - who performed better than expected? ... and the answers I get from random ppl is all "yadayadayadayadayada hellbat so OP".
Ok here is a random stat pulled out of my ass which people on this forum are using for proving for any old shit to justify an augument:-
50% of the final 8 in the first GSL Finals were Terran. For the people who cant count that's 2 Zerg, 2 Protoss and 4 Terran.
Not as long winded as your list which included BeastyQt ( like what the fuck !!! ) MMA ( whos playing so bad he could be gone from the game in a years time ) etc
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On June 14 2013 02:44 sibs wrote:
I gave you answers.
The race as a whole is slightly overperforming, no I can't point to a tournament with 6 of 8 terran's in the final, the imbalance exists but it is small. TvZ was 54/55/55% in favor of terran past 3 months, TvP also favors terran in general.
I'm not going to address anything else because I know it's hopeless arguing with you, even terran pro gamers know this hellbat drop shenanigans is not going to last much longer without changes.
55-45% winrates are still acceptable though, nothing like the WoL ZvX 65% which remained untouched for god knows how long.
I think a slight nerf to the hellbat (many sensible ones have been proposed, Blizzard will figure that out I'm sure) could bring us closer to 50-50 and not completely neuter Terran, which is always good.
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On June 14 2013 03:01 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 02:44 sibs wrote:
I gave you answers.
The race as a whole is slightly overperforming, no I can't point to a tournament with 6 of 8 terran's in the final, the imbalance exists but it is small. TvZ was 54/55/55% in favor of terran past 3 months, TvP also favors terran in general.
I'm not going to address anything else because I know it's hopeless arguing with you, even terran pro gamers know this hellbat drop shenanigans is not going to last much longer without changes. OK - so you point to aligulac stats that takes in everything like Go4SC2's, ZOTACs and other tournaments filled with lower-level player. And I'm talking about the top and I can't see terrans overperforming THERE. As I stated before I would certainly support a smart nerf that limits the hellbat drop play in TvT.
Statistics may only be applied to big enough populations. The bigger the population the better. The few top tournaments we've had since the launch of HotS only provide for a small population. Also Zergs were overrepresented at the start.
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On June 14 2013 03:03 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 02:40 scypio wrote:On June 14 2013 02:33 sibs wrote:http://www.aligulac.com/Terrans have > 50% WR on both of their MU's in general, and are also more represented in the top end. However, Hellbat abuse just started past 2 weeks, if you've been following games you kinda have to be blind to not see how blatantly overpowered it is. I don't wanna say I saw it coming.. but I saw it coming ;p. Incontrol was absolutely hilarious. I'm getting tired of this. I asked two simple questions: 1. If the T is OP why doesn't it show in their actual performance in top tournaments? 2. And if it shows - who performed better than expected? ... and the answers I get from random ppl is all "yadayadayadayadayada hellbat so OP". Ok here is a random stat pulled out of my ass which people on this forum are using for proving for any old shit to justify an augument:- 50% of the final 8 in the first GSL Finals were Terran. For the people who cant count that's 2 Zerg, 2 Protoss and 4 Terran. Not as long winded as your list which included BeastyQt ( like what the fuck !!! ) MMA ( whos playing so bad he could be gone from the game in a years time ) etc
4:2:2 split for a Ro8 is pretty good. It is just one shift away from the perfect 3:3:2. And a perfect split is something that is rather uncommon. Here are ro8s for all premier tournaments:
P T Z
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WCS S1 KR 2 2 4
IEM 7 WC 4 2 2
MLG winter 3 4 1
WCS EU s1 3 4 1
DH 2 1 5
WCS US S1 3 2 3
WCS S1 F 2 4 2
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total 19 19 18
z = + 3
t = + 3
p = + 1
e: fun fact: the total for all ro8s in premier HotS tournaments gives you a perfect split.
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EPT
