On June 13 2013 07:08 smashlloyd20 wrote: I'm a bit confused to what Geoff's argument is here...basically from what I can tell he's saying 'I know you had no budget, weren't paid to do this, and didn't have to do this at all but it should still be on the same production level of a GSL finals'. Is that right or am I missing something?
The general idea is that every event, no matter whether you're the main focus of it or not, should be better than the last. There should always be increasing production value, even if there's just 2 guys and a dog working on it. Because the production for a lot of WCS was extremely lackluster.
Yeah except standard WCS production was actually impossible because most of their staff wasn't there because a few dedicated individuals wanted to put an alternate stream.
It is not a 'WCS stream'. It was a community restream with commentary that happened to be done by some GOM guys. This is not a bad thing.
On June 13 2013 07:08 smashlloyd20 wrote: I'm a bit confused to what Geoff's argument is here...basically from what I can tell he's saying 'I know you had no budget, weren't paid to do this, and didn't have to do this at all but it should still be on the same production level of a GSL finals'. Is that right or am I missing something?
The general idea is that every event, no matter whether you're the main focus of it or not, should be better than the last. There should always be increasing production value, even if there's just 2 guys and a dog working on it. Because the production for a lot of WCS was extremely lackluster.
Yeah except standard WCS production was actually impossible because most of their staff wasn't there because a few dedicated individuals wanted to put an alternate stream.
It is not a 'WCS stream'. It was a community restream with commentary that happened to be done by some GOM guys. This is not a bad thing.
No, it's definitely not a bad thing, and I certainly enjoyed the GOM rebroadcasts, but if they're going to simulcast the WCS finals, they can't separate themselves from the criticism surrounding the event. And this isn't applicable to JUST GOM, it's every organization that's putting on a show. I'm looking at you MLG....
On June 13 2013 07:08 smashlloyd20 wrote: I'm a bit confused to what Geoff's argument is here...basically from what I can tell he's saying 'I know you had no budget, weren't paid to do this, and didn't have to do this at all but it should still be on the same production level of a GSL finals'. Is that right or am I missing something?
The general idea is that every event, no matter whether you're the main focus of it or not, should be better than the last. There should always be increasing production value, even if there's just 2 guys and a dog working on it. Because the production for a lot of WCS was extremely lackluster.
Yeah except standard WCS production was actually impossible because most of their staff wasn't there because a few dedicated individuals wanted to put an alternate stream.
It is not a 'WCS stream'. It was a community restream with commentary that happened to be done by some GOM guys. This is not a bad thing.
No, it's definitely not a bad thing, and I certainly enjoyed the GOM rebroadcasts, but if they're going to simulcast the WCS finals, they can't separate themselves from the criticism surrounding the event. And this isn't applicable to JUST GOM, it's every organization that's putting on a show. I'm looking at you MLG....
Exactly. And to add insult to injury it was an opportunity to do MORE and look BETTER but it was coasted and not taken.
what was the thing with tod at the end? why not stay there until the end like everyone on the show does? not very professional behavior. yes they were kind of making fun about him, but it's not like he's in the 7th grade and can't cope with being bullied. a little bit disappointed there. otherwise great show, great points, i can understand khaldor as well as incontrol, but there will be another opportunity for gom to prove itself and it will be taken. i am pretty confident about this, not so confident about mlg though.
On June 13 2013 07:08 smashlloyd20 wrote: I'm a bit confused to what Geoff's argument is here...basically from what I can tell he's saying 'I know you had no budget, weren't paid to do this, and didn't have to do this at all but it should still be on the same production level of a GSL finals'. Is that right or am I missing something?
The general idea is that every event, no matter whether you're the main focus of it or not, should be better than the last. There should always be increasing production value, even if there's just 2 guys and a dog working on it. Because the production for a lot of WCS was extremely lackluster.
Yeah except standard WCS production was actually impossible because most of their staff wasn't there because a few dedicated individuals wanted to put an alternate stream.
It is not a 'WCS stream'. It was a community restream with commentary that happened to be done by some GOM guys. This is not a bad thing.
No, it's definitely not a bad thing, and I certainly enjoyed the GOM rebroadcasts, but if they're going to simulcast the WCS finals, they can't separate themselves from the criticism surrounding the event. And this isn't applicable to JUST GOM, it's every organization that's putting on a show. I'm looking at you MLG....
Exactly. And to add insult to injury it was an opportunity to do MORE and look BETTER but it was coasted and not taken.
Yeah, I was kinda waiting for you to bring up the "missed opportunity" point during the discussion. GOM could have had the idea, especially BECAUSE of the competition with OGN, to try to top their production and steal as many viewers as possible. But I guess they didn't think it would be possible to beat a live audience and normally they would have been right. In hindsight we know that they probably could have topped it.
I am unable to watch the stream live due to work and seeing each episode uploaded almost immediately is awesome. Thanks for the upload, really appreciate it
I am unable to watch the stream live due to work and seeing each episode uploaded almost immediately is awesome. Thanks for the upload, really appreciate it
I'd like to echo this sentiment. It's so nice to be able to watch the vods so quickly.
Wow you're fast! I was occupied this afternoon and couldn't watch but decided to check the thread on the off chance it was uploaded. It was! Keep being awesome, JP!
On June 13 2013 07:08 smashlloyd20 wrote: I'm a bit confused to what Geoff's argument is here...basically from what I can tell he's saying 'I know you had no budget, weren't paid to do this, and didn't have to do this at all but it should still be on the same production level of a GSL finals'. Is that right or am I missing something?
GOM didn't go above and beyond for the WCS Season finals for about the same reason EG didn't have big announcement events for Suppy and Xenocider.
It's not that he's wrong exactly but sometimes you have to look at cost/benefit and the upside for GOM going all out really isn't that high.
On June 13 2013 07:08 smashlloyd20 wrote: I'm a bit confused to what Geoff's argument is here...basically from what I can tell he's saying 'I know you had no budget, weren't paid to do this, and didn't have to do this at all but it should still be on the same production level of a GSL finals'. Is that right or am I missing something?
The general idea is that every event, no matter whether you're the main focus of it or not, should be better than the last. There should always be increasing production value, even if there's just 2 guys and a dog working on it. Because the production for a lot of WCS was extremely lackluster.
Yeah except standard WCS production was actually impossible because most of their staff wasn't there because a few dedicated individuals wanted to put an alternate stream.
It is not a 'WCS stream'. It was a community restream with commentary that happened to be done by some GOM guys. This is not a bad thing.
No, it's definitely not a bad thing, and I certainly enjoyed the GOM rebroadcasts, but if they're going to simulcast the WCS finals, they can't separate themselves from the criticism surrounding the event. And this isn't applicable to JUST GOM, it's every organization that's putting on a show. I'm looking at you MLG....
Exactly. And to add insult to injury it was an opportunity to do MORE and look BETTER but it was coasted and not taken.
I agree with your point, but also understand Khaldor's point of "easier said than done". There's certainly a happy middle ground there where reality lies.
All this said, I think there should have been more focus on OGN's broadcast, as they *were* the main stream for the tournament. The things you said GOM should have done, analysis during downtime, pre-interviews, etc, should all be things OGN should have done.
In fact, I liked the idea behind the lounge stream, but they missed an opportunity. It was sort of half casting, half interview, half goofing around. I liked the relaxed nature of it (it is a lounge afterall) but it should have been solely focused on one thing. Make that the interview lounge, line up *everyone* who is anyone to talk with, and keep the content going, even during down times. No half casting and fucking around. It would be extra content for people and something they could watch if there was a match they were not interested in watching, or a lull in the action (downtime), and would be something they may want to watch *after* the tournament is over. It's also something you could promote as a behind-the-scenes stream that compliments the main stream.
Even the 2 hour break could have been handled in a better way. Pregame for the Super Bowl is like 3 hours. Is this not the SC2 Super Bowl? Line up interviews, line up the history of the tournament up to this point. Retell the fucking story. Have tons of data and past results, vods, etc on the two players in the finals. Have a roundtable of experts make predictions, talk about what to expect, blah blah. HYPE it. You've got the people there, the cameras there, no reason not to. Hell, there are Twitch shows that fill 2 hours every week like this one, no reason you can't add some of that flavor to a global finals.
On June 13 2013 07:08 smashlloyd20 wrote: I'm a bit confused to what Geoff's argument is here...basically from what I can tell he's saying 'I know you had no budget, weren't paid to do this, and didn't have to do this at all but it should still be on the same production level of a GSL finals'. Is that right or am I missing something?
The general idea is that every event, no matter whether you're the main focus of it or not, should be better than the last. There should always be increasing production value, even if there's just 2 guys and a dog working on it. Because the production for a lot of WCS was extremely lackluster.
Yeah except standard WCS production was actually impossible because most of their staff wasn't there because a few dedicated individuals wanted to put an alternate stream.
It is not a 'WCS stream'. It was a community restream with commentary that happened to be done by some GOM guys. This is not a bad thing.
No, it's definitely not a bad thing, and I certainly enjoyed the GOM rebroadcasts, but if they're going to simulcast the WCS finals, they can't separate themselves from the criticism surrounding the event. And this isn't applicable to JUST GOM, it's every organization that's putting on a show. I'm looking at you MLG....
Exactly. And to add insult to injury it was an opportunity to do MORE and look BETTER but it was coasted and not taken.
I agree with your point, but also understand Khaldor's point of "easier said than done". There's certainly a happy middle ground there where reality lies.
All this said, I think there should have been more focus on OGN's broadcast, as they *were* the main stream for the tournament. The things you said GOM should have done, analysis during downtime, pre-interviews, etc, should all be things OGN should have done.
In fact, I liked the idea behind the lounge stream, but they missed an opportunity. It was sort of half casting, half interview, half goofing around. I liked the relaxed nature of it (it is a lounge afterall) but it should have been solely focused on one thing. Make that the interview lounge, line up *everyone* who is anyone to talk with, and keep the content going, even during down times. No half casting and fucking around. It would be extra content for people and something they could watch if there was a match they were not interested in watching, or a lull in the action (downtime), and would be something they may want to watch *after* the tournament is over.
Even the 2 hour break could have been handled in a better way. Pregame for the Super Bowl is like 3 hours. Is this not the SC2 Super Bowl? Line up interviews, line up the history of the tournament up to this point. Retell the fucking story. Have tons of data and past results, vods, etc on the two players in the finals. Have a roundtable of experts make predictions, talk about what to expect, blah blah. HYPE it. You've got the people there, the cameras there, no reason not to. Hell, there are Twitch shows that fill 2 hours every week like this one, no reason you can't add some of that flavor to a global finals.
This is more like part 1 of 3 of the SC2 qualifier playoffs. Blizzcon is the true Super Bowl.
Our hosts seem to agree that Terran needs nerf and is over-performing. Somehow the numbers do not indicate that, as terran won 3/7 premier tournaments and has only 8/32 players in WCS KR and 10/32 in WCS Europe Premier.
So... can someone point out the Terran players that have performed beyond their skill level and out-performed their protoss/zerg counterparts due to Terran being OP? Which protoss player should have taken their spot?
Here is the pool:
Innovation - WCS S1 Finals Champion Mvp - WCS S1 Europe Champion Yoda - IEM S7 Champion (note that this was played before the game was even released)
On June 13 2013 21:14 scypio wrote: Our hosts seem to agree that Terran needs nerf and is over-performing. Somehow the numbers do not indicate that, as terran won 3/7 premier tournaments and has only 8/32 players in WCS KR and 10/32 in WCS Europe Premier.
So... can someone point out the Terran players that have performed beyond their skill level and out-performed their protoss/zerg counterparts due to Terran being OP? Which protoss player should have taken their spot?
Here is the pool:
Innovation - WCS S1 Finals Champion Mvp - WCS S1 Europe Champion Yoda - IEM S7 Champion (note that this was played before the game was even released)
Innovation, Flash, Bomber, Fantasy, Supernova, Bbyong, Maru, Keen - WCS KR Premier League S2 players (8)
MVP, MMA, ForGG, Shuttle, Lucifron, Happy, Beastyqt, Bunny, Dayshi, Thorzain - WCS EU Premier League S2 players
The hosts agree that Hellbat drops need to be nerfed. It's hard to disagree with that really. What I don't agree with is the method of nerfing they were talking about. Not that I like the fact that they can be healed but they should've asked themselves why Blizzard chose to do this in the first place. That would be interesting to investigate. You also always should try to determine what exactly would be the effects of a nerf in all match ups. Not just state a method of nerving.
Still very much liked the show, don't get me wrong, just some constructive criticism to help make it better!
There are some different questions being asked, I do think protoss and zerg have the tools they need to deal with hellbats but then are they an issue in TvT.
The simplest change is give them 21 damage versus light, the upgrade taking them to where they are now. Then they still 2 shot probes, drones, lings etc but would then 3 shot scvs, marines and 4 shot hellions, which adjusts TvT without affecting the other matches.
On June 13 2013 07:20 FluffyBinLaden wrote: No, it's definitely not a bad thing, and I certainly enjoyed the GOM rebroadcasts, but if they're going to simulcast the WCS finals, they can't separate themselves from the criticism surrounding the event. And this isn't applicable to JUST GOM, it's every organization that's putting on a show. I'm looking at you MLG....
Exactly. And to add insult to injury it was an opportunity to do MORE and look BETTER but it was coasted and not taken.
I don't know why you guys are mixing production of the whole show with simulcast of the games. GomTV wasn't official stream, they shouldn't have made show. They were supposed to offer game casting. But because OGN failed so miserably everyone is now turning to GOM and asking: why didn't you make something? It has nothing to do with willingness, but responsibility. What could have GOM done without players and production on spot? But let's say they actually managed to do some content etc, what would happen if OGN didn't fail? Everyone would watch OGN, and GOM would get pat on the back with message: nice job, but who gives a shit?
GomTV was given rights for WCS KR and they did great job on it. They weren't given rights for WCS Global production, they decided to offer their casting of the games and they did exactly that. Why are people expecting that GOM should've done anything else without knowing what kind of production will OGN have? How in the hell is it normal to expect some side stream to try and produce content and take as many viewers as they can from main stream? Isn't main stream for this event no.1 priority, something that everyone should watch, something that should be showed around as "Look, this is Starcraft".
Blizzard and OGN screwed this thing. It's mind blowing to me that they picked OGN and then OGN didn't even show that on TV. I thought that the only reason why OGN is even an option is because they'll show it on TV, but if that's not the case then it's all the more to blame blizzard and ogn.
The issue I have with MLG is how they don’t really talk about what they are planning or how they are going to improve things. If they just came out and said:
“Ok folks, WCS season one caught us off guard and the timetable from Blizzard left of scrambling. Right now, we don’t have enough production staff or space to put on the show we want, but we are staffing up and getting a full, dedicated studio set up. But this stuff takes time and we hope to have it ready by the fall. We are going to do the best we can right now, but we want to focus our big effort on getting that studio set up.”
Most of the community would be happy. Even if a deal feel through for some reason, people would be willing to accept that not all deals work out.
But they don’t tell people anything. Even if there are business deals in the work that they can’t talk about, they could at least talk about what they would like to do for next season. Most of the community know is smart enough to know that this stuff takes time and you can’t just hire a full studio staff in a month. It’s the little stuff like this that could go a long way to making people happier with WCS.
Get out in front of stuff, talk to the community more and discuss things. Don’t just wait to respond to all the criticism to your latest press release.
EPT
