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I am really sad about this, I've been watching State of the Game for 72 episodes now but what went down in the last episode was just enough.
Geoff and Greg have very assertive confident personalities and quite often combine to form a way of discussing that can easily be interpreted as extremely dismissive. If you decide to bring Avilo on and discuss a balance issue well then you've made that decision. I don't really see that Avilo behaved in any way negative, at the very least no where near the kind of stuff you hear from Greg on any show anyway, and the thing is it doesn't even matter because Greg was obviously not being civil towards Avilo either. But to then just cut him off from the call, and sit there and laugh about it?
I am sorry but that was just disgusting to me, and then to see some of them sitting their laughing about it. Extremely unprofessional but more to the point very very one sided. You can't be having double standards all the time where you allow outrageous comments from standard cast on the show and then you just cut people off when the discussion is not going where you want it. That makes it feel like watching O'Reilly on Fox.
It saddens me because watching sotg was something I always enjoyed but I can't support this anymore. Unless both Artosis and Day9 are on the show to balance things out I feel like I am watching an hour of bullying. I am not trying to make that personal against any of the cast, I am not saying they are intentionally causing that atmosphere I am saying that is what it comes across as and as far as I am concerned the fact that this became an issue is on JP for deciding to bring Avilo on and then cut him Fox News style, but that feeling of a biased and dismissive discourse is still there even without this incident.
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guys sc2 is small in the real world.... talk with your coworkers and nobody knows what the hell sc is, or do they care. we are a smaller community then you think , the witch hunting thats going on has to stop, your only hurting your self beacause the dramas only gonna drive out potential sponsers.
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There's an entire context behind what happened that you're completely neglecting. Things don't happen in a vacuum.
The entire reason this episode happened is people like you. People who talk about SotG being disgusting, and how bad it is now, and how unfair it is to have TvX discussions without their preferred Terran player on the show, and every other little complaint under the sun constantly throwing them at Geoff, and JP, and Tyler, and everyone else associated with the show. People in this thread whined for a solid week about the lack of qxc, and they whined about avilo not being given an invitation, and they weren't exactly showing any signs of shutting up. So there's a show that HAS qxc, and it's entirely about TvZ, because everyone was all mad about the previous show's treatment of the matchup, and it's even got avilo because he's been posting daily issuing callouts and challenges and generally strutting around while a whole group encouraged him. You know what this is like? You're getting upset because a drunk guy got into a car crash, but where were you the night before? You were sitting next to his wasted ass, begging him to drive you to Taco-Bell. The community instigated this. It's not JP deciding to create a shitshow for fun, or, if it was, it was a completely different joke. On some level, what he and Geoff were saying with that whole episode was "you people are fucking stupid. Back the hell off." And they're absolutely right.
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On July 01 2012 12:53 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 12:29 iGoTThiZ wrote:
Out of all the community's i have been a part of, this one is by far the most EMO one. ANYTHING out of the ordinary happens and you guys overreact so hard its funny. I mean you guys take it so far at times that you even send mail to peoples employers to get them fired. These guys are wasting two hours of their time to do a show that they do not get paid for just for your entertainment. Let me say it again, they do it for FREE. There is absolutely no need for them to act any different than their usual self to be "professional". It's a get together between friends where they just talk about starcraft in general, no real different than what you guys would be doing with your friends. You guys are so emo you make it to be like Incontrol and Idra came over to Avilos house and beat him up or something extreme when all that was said was "shut the fuck". Big fucking deal man....its like if some of you have have absolutely no experience with having friends. From what i have read most of them have apologized already and you guys continue. Move on with your lives folks. lol do you really think they do it because they are so warm hearted? xD obviously they do it for exposure/promoting themself.... I wouldn't even be surprised if they also earned some money with it.
That could be what they are striving for in the future. But right now they are not and they are on episode 72. Are you going to hate on them now because they strive to get paid? The thing that every one of us tries for. When they appear on TV and/or are sponsored then you people will have an argument about being robotic, professional etc. Till then they are just a couple of guys hanging out talking about sc2. Like the guy above me said, enough with the witch hunting and overdramatic reactions already.
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On July 01 2012 13:12 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
There's an entire context behind what happened that you're completely neglecting. Things don't happen in a vacuum.
The entire reason this episode happened is people like you. People who talk about SotG being disgusting, and how bad it is now, and how unfair it is to have TvX discussions without their preferred Terran player on the show, and every other little complaint under the sun constantly throwing them at Geoff, and JP, and Tyler, and everyone else associated with the show. People in this thread whined for a solid week about the lack of qxc, and they whined about avilo not being given an invitation, and they weren't exactly showing any signs of shutting up. So there's a show that HAS qxc, and it's entirely about TvZ, because everyone was all mad about the previous show's treatment of the matchup, and it's even got avilo because he's been posting daily issuing callouts and challenges and generally strutting around while a whole group encouraged him. You know what this is like? You're getting upset because a drunk guy got into a car crash, but where were you the night before? You were sitting next to his wasted ass, begging him to drive you to Taco-Bell. The community instigated this. It's not JP deciding to create a shitshow for fun, or, if it was, it was a completely different joke. On some level, what he and Geoff were saying with that whole episode was "you people are fucking stupid. Back the hell off." And they're absolutely right.
I'm one of the people who specifically said it would be dumb to bring on a terran who wasn't an entertaining personality because that is the primary purpose of the show; to entertain. That said, the people on SotG are responsible for their own content. So it's reddits fault they acted like immature bullies? So they needed to shit all over avilo to prove the community is stupid? Do you know how dumb that sounds? The only people who came across as immature and moronic were the people on the show. People are responsible for how they behave, you can't blame the community.
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It is a bit presumptuous to assume that everyone who are unsettled by the last sotg are so for the same reasons. I think there are quite a few who came to this place the same way I have, in just feeling that there is an increasingly bullying and dismissive attitude on sotg. Let me be clear, not from ALL members of the cast. I did not care at all for the whole Avilo pre story. Yes I think that you need a terran there too if you are discussing balance I agree with people on that because people are always biased towards their race. Everyone knows that IdrA is extremely biased, he does not hide that and that is fine. But then Geoff can't say that people are silly to want a terran in on the discussion because himself and Greg are perfectly capable of discussing balance objectively. No one, not even pro gamers can discuss balance objectively. So it would be useful to have a terran on for those discussions, QXC is an excellent example of such a terran, demuslim would had been awesome. Avilo, not so much.
The whole Avilo incident was just the tip of the iceberg for me of a long path of feeling that sotg is more and more turning into the sc2 version of fox news and it could had blown up over just about anything else as far as I am concerned.
For me this goes way further back than this issue. I really started to get uncomfortable with this environment when Mia Rose was on the show and there was an overflow of sexism and patronizing dialogue around her previous profession that just really felt very unsettling, and all of this for me ties into that kind of environment. In my experience it is neutralized effectively when Day9 and Artosis are on the show because they tend to be a counter to that, but JP needs to be a moderator. Yes JP is friends with everyone on the cast, but if you are moderating a show you can't be everyones friend during the show, you have to step in, and you have to show that the cast can't act one way and then take cheap shots at others who are not on the show for the same things.
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On July 01 2012 13:06 mjnbowlgod wrote:
guys sc2 is small in the real world.... talk with your coworkers and nobody knows what the hell sc is, or do they care. we are a smaller community then you think , the witch hunting thats going on has to stop, your only hurting your self beacause the dramas only gonna drive out potential sponsers.
You are wrong about the hurt.
Just like it was absolutely 100% right to contact sponsors for the racists comments made and not dealt with effectively by some earlier in the year this behaviour must also be stamped out in order to make the scene more attractive to bluechips. I do not think this is as serious as then but its still unacceptable behaviour that if left unchecked will hurt the scene more in the long term. They are role models to many and as such should be held to higher standards.
You have seen Geoff and Greg's response today; they are clearly unrepentant and not in anyway apologetic. In fact to coin a phase 'they don't get it'. It is all a joke and should be brushed aside. No.
We have HoTs around the corner and there will be a new surge in popularity. Lets get rid of this backward behaviour before then so it is an attractive landscape for further sponsorship.
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On July 01 2012 13:18 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 13:12 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
There's an entire context behind what happened that you're completely neglecting. Things don't happen in a vacuum.
The entire reason this episode happened is people like you. People who talk about SotG being disgusting, and how bad it is now, and how unfair it is to have TvX discussions without their preferred Terran player on the show, and every other little complaint under the sun constantly throwing them at Geoff, and JP, and Tyler, and everyone else associated with the show. People in this thread whined for a solid week about the lack of qxc, and they whined about avilo not being given an invitation, and they weren't exactly showing any signs of shutting up. So there's a show that HAS qxc, and it's entirely about TvZ, because everyone was all mad about the previous show's treatment of the matchup, and it's even got avilo because he's been posting daily issuing callouts and challenges and generally strutting around while a whole group encouraged him. You know what this is like? You're getting upset because a drunk guy got into a car crash, but where were you the night before? You were sitting next to his wasted ass, begging him to drive you to Taco-Bell. The community instigated this. It's not JP deciding to create a shitshow for fun, or, if it was, it was a completely different joke. On some level, what he and Geoff were saying with that whole episode was "you people are fucking stupid. Back the hell off." And they're absolutely right. I'm one of the people who specifically said it would be dumb to bring on a terran who wasn't an entertaining personality because that is the primary purpose of the show; to entertain. That said, the people on SotG are responsible for their own content. So it's reddits fault they acted like immature bullies? So they needed to shit all over avilo to prove the community is stupid? Do you know how dumb that sounds? The only people who came across as immature and moronic were the people on the show. People are responsible for how they behave, you can't blame the community.
Yes, you can.
I appreciate that there were people in the community posting reasonable opinions. But there was a lot of:
Well, no one is surprised that the Terran-less SotG is unsympathetic to terran. I get that they've got grievances, but a full third of their viewership is getting tired of it, since it happens every single time. It gets old.
Totally disgusted with this terran-less talk again
Calling you out SOTG, I'm willing to join in the skype chat to discuss from a Terran perspective the "state of the game." Otherwise, find another Terran willing to discuss actual balance/state of the game issues, you don't seem to really be having a balanced discussion at all.
Whelp, it's disgusting to see this show has turned into a giant protoss and zerg circle jerk. Even inside the game is a better show now, and that is with the show having painuser on it.
I just don't understand why we can't get a consistent terran on the show. I really wanted to hear their thoughts on the current state of TvZ but it was completely pushed aside. I made a post on reddit but it got downvoted into oblivion when all I was asking for was DISCUSSION. That's what this show is about. But there's no discussion from a terran perspective. As a struggling terran, it's frustrating to listen to what they had to say on the issue. I don't understand why a discussion is too much to ask for.
I mean, read the first sentence of that last one. He's wondering why 'we' - as if he's part of the SotG crew - can't get a Terran as a host. It's not, "JP, I feel like having a Terran perspective would be a good addition to the show"; it's "why can't we get a Terran?" That's the kind of a question you ask your parents when you want them to buy you new Legos and they say no.
That's on page 2300-2305, roughly. Two people saying they're disgusted with the lack of Terrans. That went on for another hundred pages. A hundred pages of people wanting and wanting and wanting and then they didn't like what they got.
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On July 01 2012 13:23 Ireniicus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 13:06 mjnbowlgod wrote:
guys sc2 is small in the real world.... talk with your coworkers and nobody knows what the hell sc is, or do they care. we are a smaller community then you think , the witch hunting thats going on has to stop, your only hurting your self beacause the dramas only gonna drive out potential sponsers. You are wrong about the hurt. Just like it was absolutely 100% right to contact sponsors for the racists comments made and not dealt with effectively by some earlier in the year this behaviour must also be stamped out in order to make the scene more attractive to bluechips. I do not think this is as serious as then but its still unacceptable behaviour that if left unchecked will hurt the scene more in the long term. They are role models to many and as such should be held to higher standards. You have seen Geoff and Greg's response today; they are clearly unrepentant and not in anyway apologetic. In fact to coin a phase 'they don't get it'. It is all a joke and should be brushed aside. No. We have HoTs around the corner and there will be a new surge in popularity. Lets get rid of this backward behaviour before then so it is an attractive landscape for further sponsorship.
Role models? seriously? this is starcraft bro. If you want a role model learn from your parents or any father figure in your life.
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On July 01 2012 11:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 10:40 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 01 2012 10:32 avilo wrote:On July 01 2012 02:25 IdrA wrote:
how on earth is this still going on
avilo is a joke of a person, anyone who has watched him play, read anything hes written, or heard anything hes said knows that. he kind of tried to act presentable on the show, but he opened up trying to bitch at geoff and then as soon as i started talking he was talking over me and saying i agreed with him when i didnt.
i was very short with him because i know his past outside the show and know he's not worth dealing with. just because someone tones it down once they get a big stage to preach their bullshit from doesnt make them any less of a waste of time. jp brought him on for some cheap laughs, he shouldntve done that and hes apologized, both publicly and to me, and it wont happen again. but avilo isnt supposed to be taken seriously and the fact that this has generated pages of discussion is absurd. Lol. What past is that? Writing opinions on a forum? You act like I have some criminal record somewhere or have personally hurt you @_@. Your ego is the problem. JP apologized to you? For what, making you guys look like arrogant people with huge egos/high schooler mentalities? You guys managed that yourselves. How I acted, and you may find this hard to believe Idra...is how I normally act. How you acted...is how you normally act. It speaks for itself. People can take me seriously if they deem my input valuable or not. Your cool kid bandwagon will end eventually, and people will realize there's a ton of people in this community more valuable than you guys, with more class than you guys, that build others up along with themselves instead of trying to knock people down. You guys will mature eventually. arent you the guy who whined like a child because NASL wouldnt let you play in their tournament after Athene (or his fans) hacked the NASL website to give you votes? maybe you shouldnt go around telling people they are immature. edit: yep, it was you: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=203928 Since it can't be proven that he had any involvement, you can't blame him for bitching at being removed because of something he says he didn't do and says he had no connection with whatsoever.
he was also demanding that the votes be counted and he be allowed to compete.
edit: i just reviewed the thread. i recalled that he wanted them to put him back on the standby list, which he had been taken off of. there were multiple threads going on at the same time that were made by both NASL members and avilo. he has a serious persecution complex. the same things he is saying now, he was saying then.
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Oh man, remember that episode where QXC and IdrA discussed the TvZ balance for like half-an-hour?
It was so nuanced and insightful.
KEEP IT UP SOTG!
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On July 01 2012 13:23 Ireniicus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 13:06 mjnbowlgod wrote:
guys sc2 is small in the real world.... talk with your coworkers and nobody knows what the hell sc is, or do they care. we are a smaller community then you think , the witch hunting thats going on has to stop, your only hurting your self beacause the dramas only gonna drive out potential sponsers. Just like it was absolutely 100% right to contact sponsors for the racists comments made and not dealt with effectively by some earlier in the year this behaviour must also be stamped out in order to make the scene more attractive to bluechips. I do not think this is as serious as then but its still unacceptable behaviour that if left unchecked will hurt the scene more in the long term. They are role models to many and as such should be held to higher standards.
Please get over yourself. And no, they aren't role models lol. Do you look up to a couple dudes in their early 20s as your role models?
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On July 01 2012 13:41 Defacer wrote:
Oh man, remember that episode where QXC and IdrA discussed the TvZ balance for like half-an-hour?
It was so nuanced and insightful.
KEEP IT UP SOTG!
Oh my god right? Some seriously good strategy talk if I do say so myself. Definitely the part that stands out most to me!
Geoff, Tyler, JP, Greg, Dan, we need you, we love you, we're sorry.
Edit: You too, Kevin, queremos mas!
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On July 01 2012 13:45 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 13:23 Ireniicus wrote:On July 01 2012 13:06 mjnbowlgod wrote:
guys sc2 is small in the real world.... talk with your coworkers and nobody knows what the hell sc is, or do they care. we are a smaller community then you think , the witch hunting thats going on has to stop, your only hurting your self beacause the dramas only gonna drive out potential sponsers. Just like it was absolutely 100% right to contact sponsors for the racists comments made and not dealt with effectively by some earlier in the year this behaviour must also be stamped out in order to make the scene more attractive to bluechips. I do not think this is as serious as then but its still unacceptable behaviour that if left unchecked will hurt the scene more in the long term. They are role models to many and as such should be held to higher standards. Please get over yourself. And no, they aren't role models lol. Do you look up to a couple dudes in their early 20s as your role models?
But it does happen, whether you pretend it does or not. If you played ladder when Idra was more relevant against zerg, you should know how many ppl look up and pretend they are mini-idras.
This isn't something new, people look up to celebrities as role models all the time. In sports, entertainments, politics, etc
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On July 01 2012 13:23 Ireniicus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 13:06 mjnbowlgod wrote:
guys sc2 is small in the real world.... talk with your coworkers and nobody knows what the hell sc is, or do they care. we are a smaller community then you think , the witch hunting thats going on has to stop, your only hurting your self beacause the dramas only gonna drive out potential sponsers. You are wrong about the hurt. Just like it was absolutely 100% right to contact sponsors for the racists comments made and not dealt with effectively by some earlier in the year this behaviour must also be stamped out in order to make the scene more attractive to bluechips. I do not think this is as serious as then but its still unacceptable behaviour that if left unchecked will hurt the scene more in the long term. They are role models to many and as such should be held to higher standards. You have seen Geoff and Greg's response today; they are clearly unrepentant and not in anyway apologetic. In fact to coin a phase 'they don't get it'. It is all a joke and should be brushed aside. No. We have HoTs around the corner and there will be a new surge in popularity. Lets get rid of this backward behaviour before then so it is an attractive landscape for further sponsorship.
rofl
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On July 01 2012 13:49 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 13:45 Doodsmack wrote:On July 01 2012 13:23 Ireniicus wrote:On July 01 2012 13:06 mjnbowlgod wrote:
guys sc2 is small in the real world.... talk with your coworkers and nobody knows what the hell sc is, or do they care. we are a smaller community then you think , the witch hunting thats going on has to stop, your only hurting your self beacause the dramas only gonna drive out potential sponsers. Just like it was absolutely 100% right to contact sponsors for the racists comments made and not dealt with effectively by some earlier in the year this behaviour must also be stamped out in order to make the scene more attractive to bluechips. I do not think this is as serious as then but its still unacceptable behaviour that if left unchecked will hurt the scene more in the long term. They are role models to many and as such should be held to higher standards. Please get over yourself. And no, they aren't role models lol. Do you look up to a couple dudes in their early 20s as your role models? But it does happen, whether you pretend it does or not. If you played ladder when Idra was more relevant against zerg, you should know how many ppl look up and pretend they are mini-idras. This isn't something new, people look up to celebrities as role models all the time. In sports, entertainments, politics, etc
Let's not forget the most important part. Cast on sotg, especially incontrol have on multiple occasions themselves taken a stand for people that are public figures in the community needing to act responsibly as role models. Passing judgement on Destiny for the language he uses on his stream etc.
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On July 01 2012 13:23 Ireniicus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 13:06 mjnbowlgod wrote:
guys sc2 is small in the real world.... talk with your coworkers and nobody knows what the hell sc is, or do they care. we are a smaller community then you think , the witch hunting thats going on has to stop, your only hurting your self beacause the dramas only gonna drive out potential sponsers. You are wrong about the hurt. Just like it was absolutely 100% right to contact sponsors for the racists comments made and not dealt with effectively by some earlier in the year this behaviour must also be stamped out in order to make the scene more attractive to bluechips. I do not think this is as serious as then but its still unacceptable behaviour that if left unchecked will hurt the scene more in the long term. They are role models to many and as such should be held to higher standards. You have seen Geoff and Greg's response today; they are clearly unrepentant and not in anyway apologetic. In fact to coin a phase 'they don't get it'. It is all a joke and should be brushed aside. No. We have HoTs around the corner and there will be a new surge in popularity. Lets get rid of this backward behaviour before then so it is an attractive landscape for further sponsorship.
Well I agree with some of your points, like contacting sponsors when you disagree with something, I think calling anyone a role model in esports is pretty far fetched at this point. I could count on one hand the number of people in the western world's esports scene that I have great respect for. I do respect the fact that a lot of people go into this industry as a passion and not for the money, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the majority of content produced is poor and has no mainstream appeal.
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On July 01 2012 13:45 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 13:23 Ireniicus wrote:On July 01 2012 13:06 mjnbowlgod wrote:
guys sc2 is small in the real world.... talk with your coworkers and nobody knows what the hell sc is, or do they care. we are a smaller community then you think , the witch hunting thats going on has to stop, your only hurting your self beacause the dramas only gonna drive out potential sponsers. Just like it was absolutely 100% right to contact sponsors for the racists comments made and not dealt with effectively by some earlier in the year this behaviour must also be stamped out in order to make the scene more attractive to bluechips. I do not think this is as serious as then but its still unacceptable behaviour that if left unchecked will hurt the scene more in the long term. They are role models to many and as such should be held to higher standards. Please get over yourself. And no, they aren't role models lol. Do you look up to a couple dudes in their early 20s as your role models?
hell no I am old enough to be their father..however some younger teens will, thats just how it is.
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Anyone have an opinion on what the best SotG episode was?
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On July 01 2012 13:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 13:18 Duravi wrote:On July 01 2012 13:12 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
There's an entire context behind what happened that you're completely neglecting. Things don't happen in a vacuum.
The entire reason this episode happened is people like you. People who talk about SotG being disgusting, and how bad it is now, and how unfair it is to have TvX discussions without their preferred Terran player on the show, and every other little complaint under the sun constantly throwing them at Geoff, and JP, and Tyler, and everyone else associated with the show. People in this thread whined for a solid week about the lack of qxc, and they whined about avilo not being given an invitation, and they weren't exactly showing any signs of shutting up. So there's a show that HAS qxc, and it's entirely about TvZ, because everyone was all mad about the previous show's treatment of the matchup, and it's even got avilo because he's been posting daily issuing callouts and challenges and generally strutting around while a whole group encouraged him. You know what this is like? You're getting upset because a drunk guy got into a car crash, but where were you the night before? You were sitting next to his wasted ass, begging him to drive you to Taco-Bell. The community instigated this. It's not JP deciding to create a shitshow for fun, or, if it was, it was a completely different joke. On some level, what he and Geoff were saying with that whole episode was "you people are fucking stupid. Back the hell off." And they're absolutely right. I'm one of the people who specifically said it would be dumb to bring on a terran who wasn't an entertaining personality because that is the primary purpose of the show; to entertain. That said, the people on SotG are responsible for their own content. So it's reddits fault they acted like immature bullies? So they needed to shit all over avilo to prove the community is stupid? Do you know how dumb that sounds? The only people who came across as immature and moronic were the people on the show. People are responsible for how they behave, you can't blame the community. Yes, you can. I appreciate that there were people in the community posting reasonable opinions. But there was a lot of: Show nested quote +Well, no one is surprised that the Terran-less SotG is unsympathetic to terran. I get that they've got grievances, but a full third of their viewership is getting tired of it, since it happens every single time. It gets old. Show nested quote +Calling you out SOTG, I'm willing to join in the skype chat to discuss from a Terran perspective the "state of the game." Otherwise, find another Terran willing to discuss actual balance/state of the game issues, you don't seem to really be having a balanced discussion at all. Show nested quote +Whelp, it's disgusting to see this show has turned into a giant protoss and zerg circle jerk. Even inside the game is a better show now, and that is with the show having painuser on it. Show nested quote +I just don't understand why we can't get a consistent terran on the show. I really wanted to hear their thoughts on the current state of TvZ but it was completely pushed aside. I made a post on reddit but it got downvoted into oblivion when all I was asking for was DISCUSSION. That's what this show is about. But there's no discussion from a terran perspective. As a struggling terran, it's frustrating to listen to what they had to say on the issue. I don't understand why a discussion is too much to ask for. I mean, read the first sentence of that last one. He's wondering why 'we' - as if he's part of the SotG crew - can't get a Terran as a host. It's not, "JP, I feel like having a Terran perspective would be a good addition to the show"; it's "why can't we get a Terran?" That's the kind of a question you ask your parents when you want them to buy you new Legos and they say no. That's on page 2300-2305, roughly. Two people saying they're disgusted with the lack of Terrans. That went on for another hundred pages. A hundred pages of people wanting and wanting and wanting and then they didn't like what they got.
Sorry but you can't blame peer pressure for your actions. What you do is your responsibility.
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EPT
