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On January 27 2012 21:18 EvOr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 18:19 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
That map discussion was... really bad. Really, really bad. I really wish Geoff was there to actually give the voice of a player who plays in tournaments. When he's organizing the EG practices, the maps they're practicing are the Tournament Big Four and these new community maps like Darkness Falls, Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom. He would have had a really good perspective on the issue, and he would have actually had intelligent things to say about the maps - Daybreak has some sick macro games, TvZ on Cloud Kingdom can be a little weird because X and Y - rather than just complaints.
Even Day9's whole speil about embracing 'I don't know' was irritating. Fine, we haven't seen 1,500 games on the ESV maps. Going that way leads to a map pool of Metalopolis, Shakuras, Dual Sight and Tal'Darim. We've seen a pretty decent number of games on some of these new maps. Newer tournaments, especially smaller ones, are embracing them. Why can't the hosts, who are theoretically the guys who should know this sort of stuff, be as aware as RANDOM_COMMUNITY_MEMBER_01?
In all that map discussion, the only strategy discussed was Artosis complaining about PvP on maps that don't have ramps, which doesn't apply to any of the new ones. In fact, he's complaining about Bel'Shir Beach and Tal'Darim Altar, which are some of the most vetted maps we have. If those two can't be used, and new maps aren't good enough either, then it looks like the 4-map pool Day9, Artosis and Tyler want is Metal, Shakuras, Dual Sight and XNC (Entombed Valley hasn't been around long enough! And MVP found a crazy new strategy and that's BAD.). That's ridiculous. You didn't listen to the discussion they were talking about a 12-15 maps pool across tournaments but each tournaments with only 4/5 maps each so that player can concentrate on 1 tournament by preparing builds for only 4/5 maps instead of 10. And i do think match are more intersting in the most practiced maps (daybreak). The discussion was really interesting and full of insight. I don't see how the whole "actually plays in tournaments" applies there, for once BW and SC2 have simliraties and all of them were competitive BW players. I mean : maps impact on match ups and strategies is the same in SC2 than in BW so map pools stuff should also have similarities...
It wasn't insightful at all. I get that they think there are too many maps, and that's maybe a discussion to have. They were asked about the maps for the IPL qualifiers. Some of them maps get a decent amount of play. Maybe it occurs in smaller tournaments, but the brackets every week are as strong or stronger than any tournament in the world, with the possible exception of Code S. It's not like these maps are something a staffer at IPL just pulled out of his ass and put in the qualifiers sight unseen. They're out there. I don't watch many streams but I've seen a decent number of games. Is it really asking too much to expect ONE of the four of them to have something to say about how the maps play? I don't think so at all, but what we got instead was BW nostalgia. And that's fine as far as it goes, but it has a time and a place.
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Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 20:39 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Despite most people thinking it would be a good idea, most people wouldn't truly understand strategy when it's really at a high level. It's interesting to hear, but most people don't get just how many moving parts go into 1 idea. I think about IdrA's time commenting his matches while he streamed practice games a while back. The amount of things he simply states without thinking about them, that might appear interesting to everybody else, are just fleating moments that require no additional time to look at for him. How can you meaningfully talk about strategy when there's such a huge gap between player and pro? The people who would actually take something out of it are the extreme minority while the other 99% are busy scratching their neckbeards pretending to understand what's going on. What a a pile of bullshit. I can't stand this kind of elitist attitude. Sc2 isn't a simple game but it isn't quantum mechanics either. A reasonably articulate player/caster is perfectly capable or communicating high level strategy to your average viewer. Will the viewer know all the timings and have the mechanical skill to be able to load up a 1v1 and execute said strategy to a pro standard? No. However that doesn't mean there's no point in strategy talk. I think Starcraft 2 is a relatively visceral and entertaining game to watch especially when compared to other esports but to get the most out of watching it you have to understand what's happening and the deeper the understanding you have, the better (just like any other sport or esport). That's why casters are so important. It's also why strategy centric content like the daily is important. State of the game has a pretty large influence over the foreign community, I just wish they would use it to promote the game more often rather than all the drama and "personalities".
It's not elitist to acknowledge the huge, gigantic gap between the top and everybody else. Truly explaining strategy at the top level would take ages and ages and ages because there are so many things that go into 1 decision. And all of those smaller things are usually where people are stuck in understanding or ability. Trying to explain all of those other little things and then answer there question with all of those parts put together is a hurdle I have yet to be seen accomplished in an interesting or insightful way.
I stand by my point that I'd be willing to listen to a strategy section the minute I hear a truly good question for them where the answer could be both informative and interesting.
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I must agree with a lot of people in the thread.
I really hope that the show will go back to some more strategy discussion - high level strategy. I know that some people may find this trivial, since only 5 % of the players in the world can execute these strategies, but I really find it cool and interesting when people with a good understanding of the game talk about it (talk, not whine about balance).
I remember some of the first episodes when they discussed all the time and all kinds of strategies came up this was awesome IMO! I loved how they theory crafted and talked about builds and unit usage. This really made the game ten times more interesting for me.
I am happy that they started letting day9 have a strategy-ish session - made my hopes go up for that part of the show.
<3 SotG and will keep on watching it <3
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On January 28 2012 00:28 FreudianTrip wrote:Is Marcotti still on that. The man's a genius. Although I must way when I'm looking for a round-up of recent events I go for Football Weekly. But then again I like puns. While I was looking for that link I just found out Wilshere is out for the rest of the season. Our fucking medical team is a joke. I'd have every last one of them shot.
Chin up mate you've still got the Ox. That's if he can get the nod over Arshavin of course....
Wasn't comparing I was contrasting. Not saying SotG has to be all analytical content but it would be nice if they talked about things inside the game more often than the greater esport world surrounding it.
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Sombrero,
Real eSports journalism, and he didn't even have to be a dick to do it.
Much love, dude, made my night.
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I watched State of the league once, and damn SotG is so damn good seriously... Best show ever.
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JP! Can we have "The Sombrero Corner" on state of the game?! That guy was awesome!
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Can we have Grubby on the show? He never sleeps anyway, so the time difference wouldn't be an issue.
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Germany25658 Posts
Oh yeah that would be nice, get Grubby on the show 
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haven't had idra on in a LONG ace time.
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On January 28 2012 21:14 blae000 wrote:
JP! Can we have "The Sombrero Corner" on state of the game?! That guy was awesome!
Yes, he could be to SotG what Goatlust is to ITG.
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On January 28 2012 05:19 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 21:18 EvOr wrote:On January 27 2012 18:19 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
That map discussion was... really bad. Really, really bad. I really wish Geoff was there to actually give the voice of a player who plays in tournaments. When he's organizing the EG practices, the maps they're practicing are the Tournament Big Four and these new community maps like Darkness Falls, Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom. He would have had a really good perspective on the issue, and he would have actually had intelligent things to say about the maps - Daybreak has some sick macro games, TvZ on Cloud Kingdom can be a little weird because X and Y - rather than just complaints.
Even Day9's whole speil about embracing 'I don't know' was irritating. Fine, we haven't seen 1,500 games on the ESV maps. Going that way leads to a map pool of Metalopolis, Shakuras, Dual Sight and Tal'Darim. We've seen a pretty decent number of games on some of these new maps. Newer tournaments, especially smaller ones, are embracing them. Why can't the hosts, who are theoretically the guys who should know this sort of stuff, be as aware as RANDOM_COMMUNITY_MEMBER_01?
In all that map discussion, the only strategy discussed was Artosis complaining about PvP on maps that don't have ramps, which doesn't apply to any of the new ones. In fact, he's complaining about Bel'Shir Beach and Tal'Darim Altar, which are some of the most vetted maps we have. If those two can't be used, and new maps aren't good enough either, then it looks like the 4-map pool Day9, Artosis and Tyler want is Metal, Shakuras, Dual Sight and XNC (Entombed Valley hasn't been around long enough! And MVP found a crazy new strategy and that's BAD.). That's ridiculous. You didn't listen to the discussion they were talking about a 12-15 maps pool across tournaments but each tournaments with only 4/5 maps each so that player can concentrate on 1 tournament by preparing builds for only 4/5 maps instead of 10. And i do think match are more intersting in the most practiced maps (daybreak). The discussion was really interesting and full of insight. I don't see how the whole "actually plays in tournaments" applies there, for once BW and SC2 have simliraties and all of them were competitive BW players. I mean : maps impact on match ups and strategies is the same in SC2 than in BW so map pools stuff should also have similarities... It wasn't insightful at all. I get that they think there are too many maps, and that's maybe a discussion to have. They were asked about the maps for the IPL qualifiers. Some of them maps get a decent amount of play. Maybe it occurs in smaller tournaments, but the brackets every week are as strong or stronger than any tournament in the world, with the possible exception of Code S. It's not like these maps are something a staffer at IPL just pulled out of his ass and put in the qualifiers sight unseen. They're out there. I don't watch many streams but I've seen a decent number of games. Is it really asking too much to expect ONE of the four of them to have something to say about how the maps play? I don't think so at all, but what we got instead was BW nostalgia. And that's fine as far as it goes, but it has a time and a place.
I'm not going to discuss this right now, but the SotG guys are fully aware of Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom. Daybreak has been in GSL for quite a while now and a lot of ppl, including Artosis think it's a great map. Cloud Kingdom is also in the GSL. They were really only talking about Darkness Falls, Sanshorn Mists and Atlantis Spaceship not being tested tht much.
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Some stats on the maps (from TLPD) that should maybe give people who can't be bothered to research some insight:
Sanshorn Mists:
Games played: 38 International, 108 Korea
Race Stats (non-mirrors, International):
TvZ: 2-11 (15.4%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 6-5 (54.5%) [ Games ]
PvT: 3-3 (50%) [ Games ]
Race Stats (non-mirrors, Korea):
TvZ: 18-10 (64.3%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 11-14 (44%) [ Games ]
PvT: 15-13 (53.6%) [ Games ]
Decent sample size (nothing close to a map like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom), and none of the winrates are too skewed besides the International TvZ, but considering that it's Terran favored in Korea with a larger number of games, I'm gonna assume that's an anomaly.
Darkness Falls:
Games played: 9 (International), no Korean
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 0-1 (0%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 0-0 (0%) [ Games ]
PvT: 1-2 (33.3%) [ Games ]
Laughably small sample size. Really hard to see how IPL is comfortable using this map unless they've done some sort of internal testing; we haven't even seen a single ZvP on it.
Atlantis Spaceship:
Games played: 14 (International, no Korean)
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 3-0 (100%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 1-4 (20%) [ Games ]
PvT: 1-1 (50%) [ Games ]
Again, tiny sample size. We can't tell if it's balanced from this few games.
I can't tell you whether these maps are balanced or not, but it's pretty obvious that they haven't seen enough competitive play to make a judgment. Sanshorn Mists has gotten a decent amount of play thanks to the fact that it's used in Korean Weekly, but the others have really only seen use in IPL TAC and FC. I somehow doubt that players were even putting much work into practicing these maps, since it's not like they had to prep them for a big important individual league, it's just an offline team thing.
This is what the guys were worried about. It's not that they've never seen games on them (well, maybe they haven't...), it's that they're basically untested in tournament play and IPL is now asking players to play on them for one of the biggest tournaments there is, prize-pool wise.
I mean, seriously, Darkness Falls has had 4 non-mirror games played on it. 4.
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Tyler, married.
Incontrol, engaged.
Artosis, dad.
Damn JP/Day9 you guys gotta get moving.
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On January 30 2012 11:42 Condor Hero wrote:
Tyler, married.
Incontrol, engaged.
Artosis, dad.
Damn JP/Day9 you guys gotta get moving.
They're married to e-sports!
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On January 30 2012 11:42 Condor Hero wrote:
Tyler, married.
Incontrol, engaged.
Artosis, dad.
Damn JP/Day9 you guys gotta get moving.
Leah is single again so JP can make his move!
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On January 30 2012 11:45 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 11:42 Condor Hero wrote:
Tyler, married.
Incontrol, engaged.
Artosis, dad.
Damn JP/Day9 you guys gotta get moving. They're married to e-sports!
They need to propose to or impregnate some girl asap, just saying lol
On January 30 2012 11:46 JethroMoney wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 11:42 Condor Hero wrote:
Tyler, married.
Incontrol, engaged.
Artosis, dad.
Damn JP/Day9 you guys gotta get moving. Leah is single again so JP can make his move!
what, shes not engaged anymore?
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Since I can't find it in any obvious spot, is SOTG still going to be on Thursdays but at the old time of 8:30 pacific (?) or is it moved back to Tuesday?
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On January 30 2012 11:46 JethroMoney wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 11:42 Condor Hero wrote:
Tyler, married.
Incontrol, engaged.
Artosis, dad.
Damn JP/Day9 you guys gotta get moving. Leah is single again so JP can make his move!
I thought that she was engaged to Drewbie. Did something happen?
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I think people need to remember that asking for "strategy discussion" by top pros is basically asking for insight into their own play, which can directly hurt their future results or ability to win games.
Sometimes it can be general, yes, like the streaming of practice in the EG house, but you won't see an intimate 30 minute discussion on the finer points of pro-level XvX anytime soon, because it's simply counter-productive.
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EPT
