EPTOn September 15 2011 05:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No he is not unknown, he is a well known old high level WC3 player and one of the top player in the earlier stage of SC2. He just decided to get out of the competition, it's his call, but when you link tournament's result and ask for lucifron, that's not a good idea.
His current level is unknown, but he is not unknown.
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On September 15 2011 04:53 flowSthead wrote:
So you agree that he is relatively unknown. My issue isn't that he is unknown. I have no problems with him deciding to focus on the spanish scene. My issue is with people criticizing SOTG for not knowing who Lucifron is, when he just hasn't been in huge tournaments at all in a long time. Why is my post, according to this logic, bad?
On September 15 2011 04:46 WhiteDog wrote:
No it's actually a really BAD post. There is a reason why Lucifron's current form is unknown and why he has disappeared from the scene : back when he was one of the top EU terran, he decided to stop large scale tournament and concentrate only on spanish event. He left fnatic (I think it's fnatic, not sure, correct me if wrong) and integrated a spanish team with his brother.
When someone don't know who is Lucifron, or what his current level is, that someone should just not say anything - and that's what tyler did, saying he did not know who was his current level.
Back in WC3 I didn't like lucifron, orc was OP and I always thought he was just abusing, but in SC2 he was, for the little time he played in the EU scene, one of the top contender.
On September 15 2011 04:31 flanksteak wrote:
Good post. Reading the thread, I sometimes wonder if people are watching the same show I am. It's a talk show and it should incite discussion/disagreement/agreement etc, that's a good thing; but to mischaracterize or convolute opinions made on the show by its hosts, accidental or otherwise, and then proceed to argue against that position? So many misunderstandings could just be cleared up by being a little more attentive to the details; particularly on issues/opinions that might be fairly nuanced, trying to categorize someones position as being on one side of the fence or the other is sometimes a gross mischaracterization of what they're trying to say.
On September 15 2011 03:52 flowSthead wrote:
*sigh* It is so annoying when people hear something on the cast, then decide to post immediately what their feelings are without listening to what the rest of the cast. We get a lot of really stupid posts this way. The one person who seems to actually listen to SOTG is TheKY and I am going to spoiler his awesome posts, cause he's a boss:
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
Here is the real issue with the whole EU scene problem that everyone is talking about. I consider that I watch a fair amount of SC2. Not enough as some people here clearly, since I rarely watch streams or any of the smaller tournaments. But I do make it a point to watch most of these games: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments And then I also try to watch some of these as well: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments I don't watch nearly as many, but I occasionally watch some of the more interesting ones, like the HomeStory Cup.
If I'm looking at just the Premier Tournaments, can anyone tell me where in that Lucifron has done amazingly? He hasn't. From Mr. Bitter's list, I have seen every player on that list play many times in many big tournamens (except Nightend, I haven't seen him play that often in bigger tournaments), but I have not seen Lucifron. I don't blame the hosts for not having seen much of his play either. I would argue that there are a lot of players missing on that list as well. Morrow isn't there, neither is Brat_OK, Adelscott and Naama haven't been posting great results lately but I at least know who they are because they have done well in big tournaments before. Lucifron hasn't.
I find this entire attitude super strange, seeing as I see every day on these forums people wondering why Sase gets so much respect when has actually posted consistently good results for a while now. Sase 5-0 his group at DreamHack Summer, won the Grubby Invitational, and recently got 2nd place at the CPL Invitational. How does Sase get so much crap posting good results, while Lucifron gets so much love for posting one or two good results in smaller tournaments? Note, I am not calling Lucifron a bad player, but he is frankly relatively unknown and unproven. I am impressed he defeated Nerchio, but he did so in a Zotac Cup, not at an IEM, a DreamHack, or an MLG. It is not quite impressive enough for him to register.
On a separate note, I also just want to point out how ridiculous the community is in regards to ignoring what doesn't hold to their view. People complain about how SOTG only talks about MLG, and then SOTG proceeds to talk about the Blizzard Invitationals in previous episodes, and DreamHack Valencia in this one. But no, SOTG only talks about MLG. Then before this SOTG people were complaining about the fact that Day9 never does any useful analysis, and then he proceeds to pretty much be the only one to analyze why he thinks Hero will face DRG in the finals of the DreamHack. Yet no one has commented on Day9's analysis and how wrong they were. He talked about a Protoss change to armor upgrades against zergling attacks instead of attack, he talked about Zealot harass that Hero does, he talked about Zerg building too many infestors. And then after Tyler, Day9 analyzes DRG's style about getting an early 3rd hatch for early counter-attacking and how that allows him to have more than the usual amount of units on 2 bases, which means he is better able to hold any possible cheese and gives him the ability to counter-attack more easily.
It's not the most in depth analysis with specific timings and what not, and it is always possible that Day9 made a mistake. But people will watch this SOTG and then before next SOTG they will be complaining again that Day9 isn't a pro and he does no high level analysis. I mean seriously, how fast did people forget that Day9 and Tyler worked together to make an anti-four gate PvP build a few months ago. Now obviously we don't know how much Day9 contributed and how much Tyler contributed. But if they were at the very least practicing together, that means Day9 is at least good enough to practice with a pro currently playing. This was before MLG Anaheim, which while maybe not Tyler at his best, he still made it out of the Open Bracket for that one.
I just don't understand what Day9 has to do for his opinion to be respected.
*sigh* It is so annoying when people hear something on the cast, then decide to post immediately what their feelings are without listening to what the rest of the cast. We get a lot of really stupid posts this way. The one person who seems to actually listen to SOTG is TheKY and I am going to spoiler his awesome posts, cause he's a boss:
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 14 2011 21:35 The KY wrote:
I'm always confused about the whole 'SOTG doesn't know about EU' thing. I have never ever got that impression. In fact I remember a couple of weeks ago Tyler having a go at JP for making it sound like they don't know about EU players when it isn't true.
It's natural that the hosts would know the NA players better, because, and wait for it, they play on the fucking NA server. You know a player's style better when you play against them. But if someone mentions an NA player they don't know, everyone just moves on, but mention an EU player they don't know much about and it's all 'oh here we go, NA-centric SOTG, they could make the effort at least, gosh'.
See this is what I don't get. I can remember times when they've talked about how good ALL of these players are. Every single one of them. Incontrol once said he idolised Hasu's play. As long ago as last week they had an extended section about Sjow's play.
Basically, I'm not seeing this huge EU blind spot everyone is.
I'm always confused about the whole 'SOTG doesn't know about EU' thing. I have never ever got that impression. In fact I remember a couple of weeks ago Tyler having a go at JP for making it sound like they don't know about EU players when it isn't true.
It's natural that the hosts would know the NA players better, because, and wait for it, they play on the fucking NA server. You know a player's style better when you play against them. But if someone mentions an NA player they don't know, everyone just moves on, but mention an EU player they don't know much about and it's all 'oh here we go, NA-centric SOTG, they could make the effort at least, gosh'.
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On September 14 2011 21:02 MrBitter wrote:
Lucifron is incredible.
So is Kas, Strelok, Sjow, and Tarson.
Stephano, Nerchio, Ret, and Dimaga
Mana, Nightend, Hasu, and Socke
Lucifron is incredible.
So is Kas, Strelok, Sjow, and Tarson.
Stephano, Nerchio, Ret, and Dimaga
Mana, Nightend, Hasu, and Socke
See this is what I don't get. I can remember times when they've talked about how good ALL of these players are. Every single one of them. Incontrol once said he idolised Hasu's play. As long ago as last week they had an extended section about Sjow's play.
Basically, I'm not seeing this huge EU blind spot everyone is.
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 14 2011 22:01 The KY wrote:
My mind is seriously being blown here. Did I miss the bit where Lucifron got called a 1 baser? Didn't Artosis say he was looking forward to seeing how he plays? Didn't Inc say he was tearing through EU zergs?
Did I miss something?
My mind is seriously being blown here. Did I miss the bit where Lucifron got called a 1 baser? Didn't Artosis say he was looking forward to seeing how he plays? Didn't Inc say he was tearing through EU zergs?
Did I miss something?
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 14 2011 22:28 The KY wrote:
Iirc, Tyler came on and made a joke about whether they even had to consider who would win between Lucifron v DRG. Then after they laughed he clarified and said that he hadn't seen Lucifron play really well but this could very well be the big coming out of a really good player.
I'm completely failing to see the issue with the statement. Do people want the SOTG hosts to watch every VOD of every player so they know exactly how good everyone is doing? I don't know if people realise, but as players they don't have the same kind of time as we do for watching SC2. Their job is to know more about the game than the collective viewership, but it's literally impossible to know more about the scene from the perspective of a viewer. There's five of them and thousands of us, they can't know more than we do from watching starcraft.
Iirc, Tyler came on and made a joke about whether they even had to consider who would win between Lucifron v DRG. Then after they laughed he clarified and said that he hadn't seen Lucifron play really well but this could very well be the big coming out of a really good player.
I'm completely failing to see the issue with the statement. Do people want the SOTG hosts to watch every VOD of every player so they know exactly how good everyone is doing? I don't know if people realise, but as players they don't have the same kind of time as we do for watching SC2. Their job is to know more about the game than the collective viewership, but it's literally impossible to know more about the scene from the perspective of a viewer. There's five of them and thousands of us, they can't know more than we do from watching starcraft.
Here is the real issue with the whole EU scene problem that everyone is talking about. I consider that I watch a fair amount of SC2. Not enough as some people here clearly, since I rarely watch streams or any of the smaller tournaments. But I do make it a point to watch most of these games: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments And then I also try to watch some of these as well: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments I don't watch nearly as many, but I occasionally watch some of the more interesting ones, like the HomeStory Cup.
If I'm looking at just the Premier Tournaments, can anyone tell me where in that Lucifron has done amazingly? He hasn't. From Mr. Bitter's list, I have seen every player on that list play many times in many big tournamens (except Nightend, I haven't seen him play that often in bigger tournaments), but I have not seen Lucifron. I don't blame the hosts for not having seen much of his play either. I would argue that there are a lot of players missing on that list as well. Morrow isn't there, neither is Brat_OK, Adelscott and Naama haven't been posting great results lately but I at least know who they are because they have done well in big tournaments before. Lucifron hasn't.
I find this entire attitude super strange, seeing as I see every day on these forums people wondering why Sase gets so much respect when has actually posted consistently good results for a while now. Sase 5-0 his group at DreamHack Summer, won the Grubby Invitational, and recently got 2nd place at the CPL Invitational. How does Sase get so much crap posting good results, while Lucifron gets so much love for posting one or two good results in smaller tournaments? Note, I am not calling Lucifron a bad player, but he is frankly relatively unknown and unproven. I am impressed he defeated Nerchio, but he did so in a Zotac Cup, not at an IEM, a DreamHack, or an MLG. It is not quite impressive enough for him to register.
On a separate note, I also just want to point out how ridiculous the community is in regards to ignoring what doesn't hold to their view. People complain about how SOTG only talks about MLG, and then SOTG proceeds to talk about the Blizzard Invitationals in previous episodes, and DreamHack Valencia in this one. But no, SOTG only talks about MLG. Then before this SOTG people were complaining about the fact that Day9 never does any useful analysis, and then he proceeds to pretty much be the only one to analyze why he thinks Hero will face DRG in the finals of the DreamHack. Yet no one has commented on Day9's analysis and how wrong they were. He talked about a Protoss change to armor upgrades against zergling attacks instead of attack, he talked about Zealot harass that Hero does, he talked about Zerg building too many infestors. And then after Tyler, Day9 analyzes DRG's style about getting an early 3rd hatch for early counter-attacking and how that allows him to have more than the usual amount of units on 2 bases, which means he is better able to hold any possible cheese and gives him the ability to counter-attack more easily.
It's not the most in depth analysis with specific timings and what not, and it is always possible that Day9 made a mistake. But people will watch this SOTG and then before next SOTG they will be complaining again that Day9 isn't a pro and he does no high level analysis. I mean seriously, how fast did people forget that Day9 and Tyler worked together to make an anti-four gate PvP build a few months ago. Now obviously we don't know how much Day9 contributed and how much Tyler contributed. But if they were at the very least practicing together, that means Day9 is at least good enough to practice with a pro currently playing. This was before MLG Anaheim, which while maybe not Tyler at his best, he still made it out of the Open Bracket for that one.
I just don't understand what Day9 has to do for his opinion to be respected.
Good post. Reading the thread, I sometimes wonder if people are watching the same show I am. It's a talk show and it should incite discussion/disagreement/agreement etc, that's a good thing; but to mischaracterize or convolute opinions made on the show by its hosts, accidental or otherwise, and then proceed to argue against that position? So many misunderstandings could just be cleared up by being a little more attentive to the details; particularly on issues/opinions that might be fairly nuanced, trying to categorize someones position as being on one side of the fence or the other is sometimes a gross mischaracterization of what they're trying to say.
No it's actually a really BAD post. There is a reason why Lucifron's current form is unknown and why he has disappeared from the scene : back when he was one of the top EU terran, he decided to stop large scale tournament and concentrate only on spanish event. He left fnatic (I think it's fnatic, not sure, correct me if wrong) and integrated a spanish team with his brother.
When someone don't know who is Lucifron, or what his current level is, that someone should just not say anything - and that's what tyler did, saying he did not know who was his current level.
Back in WC3 I didn't like lucifron, orc was OP and I always thought he was just abusing, but in SC2 he was, for the little time he played in the EU scene, one of the top contender.
So you agree that he is relatively unknown. My issue isn't that he is unknown. I have no problems with him deciding to focus on the spanish scene. My issue is with people criticizing SOTG for not knowing who Lucifron is, when he just hasn't been in huge tournaments at all in a long time. Why is my post, according to this logic, bad?
No he is not unknown, he is a well known old high level WC3 player and one of the top player in the earlier stage of SC2. He just decided to get out of the competition, it's his call, but when you link tournament's result and ask for lucifron, that's not a good idea.
His current level is unknown, but he is not unknown.
Either way, it doesn't change the point of what I said. SOTG hosts are getting flak for not knowing what his current form is. I am saying that the criticism is ridiculous since he hasn't been in any major tournaments recently. You are saying that Lucifron is a well known player with his current SC2 skill level being unknown.
What have I said that is wrong? What have you said that contradicts my point that the criticism of the hosts for not knowing his level is ridiculous?
Artosis please host a BW talk show! I would kill for that <333
