|
On May 06 2011 04:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 03:45 MorroW wrote:
what idra said about scouting and responding makes perfect sense to me that's just a succinct description of how zergs generally lose games. idra did that well. but the issue is balance. how do you go from describing how zergs lose games to saying the game is imbalanced? it's not a discussion fit for the podcast. there are some parallels in academia. in science, you haven't proven something until you've proven something through rigid scientific method that has been peer-reviewed. in math, you haven't proven something until you've done the numbers. even in lit/phil/hist etc, you have to do tons of research and write a comprehensive paper. an academic would never get too invested in a discussion that isn't referring to work that hasn't already been done. if it's all about work that needs to be done, then either do the work or stop talking about it. now, idra has certainly done a lot of great work, and gathered some good evidence, that could be used for a discussion on balance. but it's a drop in the bucket. i guess he feels it's enough to make any future work irrelevant and sean doesnt. ---- the excessively argumentative nature of some of these discussions is really hurting the show and im going to purposely try to avoid it. debates that aren't seen through to the very end are worthless (and we can never do that unless it's an incredibly simple issue). they accomplish nothing. one goal of the show is to extract as much useful knowledge as possible out of our pillars and guests. argument and debate are absolutely horrible formats for doing that. especially when debaters get more concerned with winning a debate than understanding their opponent's position. that's inimical to spreading information. it truly encourages one guy on the show to stop someone else on the show from getting their thoughts out so for example, every single one of idra's insights about zerg could be shared without throwing him in a debate against someone who thinks that we can't presently conclude that the game is imbalanced. and i think they can be shared much more efficiently and pleasantly without debate. any time the pillars and guests on the show talk about anything, that's all we have to do is make good points, provide good insights. and then people listening can decide whatever they want. of course, we should be able to engage with each other and criticize each other's points, but debate is a useless extra dimension, that can only detract from constructive discourse
This man is my hero.
|
United States7483 Posts
On May 06 2011 05:45 branflakes14 wrote:
Idra currently talking about how a Protoss blocking his fast expansion with a Pylon is a sign that the Protoss knows he can't compete with Idra and has to compensate. The view inside his colon must be amazing, he's obsessed with it. I honestly have no idea how or why people take him seriously.
Lol, I know right? Let's be honest here: Protoss can gain an advantage by blocking the hatch with a pylon. Therefore, it is dumb not to do it. Period. There's no reason not to do it, unless you're in a rare situation where your build can't afford it, or you lost the probe or something.
|
Debates are fine and all, but it just seemed really awkward after it was "settled". They got a little too heated, and they were arguing over things that neither party could come to terms with. I know they're all friends, but it was uncomfortable. Good thing tasteless was there.
|
You guys are the fucking worst. the type that watch youtube videos of people you don't like just so you can bitch about them.
Stop watching it if you don't like it.
|
On May 06 2011 06:01 Eogris wrote:
Debates are fine and all, but it just seemed really awkward after it was "settled". They got a little too heated, and they were arguing over things that neither party could come to terms with. I know they're all friends, but it was uncomfortable. Good thing tasteless was there.
His rampant profanity is something everyone can rally behind
|
On May 06 2011 05:45 branflakes14 wrote:
Idra currently talking about how a Protoss blocking his fast expansion with a Pylon is a sign that the Protoss knows he can't compete with Idra and has to compensate. The view inside his colon must be amazing, he's obsessed with it. I honestly have no idea how or why people take him seriously.
He was talking about how the Protoss controlled his probe shittily and compensated for it by placing the pylon prematurely. Please don't twist people's words.
Also it amazes me that you're watching his stream for apparently the sole purpose of finding ways to shit on him. You really have nothing better to do?
|
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 06 2011 05:59 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:45 branflakes14 wrote:
Idra currently talking about how a Protoss blocking his fast expansion with a Pylon is a sign that the Protoss knows he can't compete with Idra and has to compensate. The view inside his colon must be amazing, he's obsessed with it. I honestly have no idea how or why people take him seriously. Lol, I know right? Let's be honest here: Protoss can gain an advantage by blocking the hatch with a pylon. Therefore, it is dumb not to do it. Period. There's no reason not to do it, unless you're in a rare situation where your build can't afford it, or you lost the probe or something.
This isn't what he said at all, but its cool what idra antifans hear 
|
On May 06 2011 06:05 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:45 branflakes14 wrote:
Idra currently talking about how a Protoss blocking his fast expansion with a Pylon is a sign that the Protoss knows he can't compete with Idra and has to compensate. The view inside his colon must be amazing, he's obsessed with it. I honestly have no idea how or why people take him seriously. He was talking about how the Protoss controlled his probe shittily and compensated for it by placing the pylon prematurely. Please don't twist people's words. Also it amazes me that you're watching his stream for apparently the sole purpose of finding ways to shit on him. You really have nothing better to do?
Hm, watched it too and interpreted it the same way as the 2 other guys :o "prematurely" was not a word he used.
Anyway I watch his stream because he plays well and I like it, it's not because you notice some silly things he says that it makes it not worth watching.
|
On May 06 2011 04:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 03:45 MorroW wrote:
what idra said about scouting and responding makes perfect sense to me that's just a succinct description of how zergs generally lose games. idra did that well. but the issue is balance. how do you go from describing how zergs lose games to saying the game is imbalanced? it's not a discussion fit for the podcast. there are some parallels in academia. in science, you haven't proven something until you've proven something through rigid scientific method that has been peer-reviewed. in math, you haven't proven something until you've done the numbers. even in lit/phil/hist etc, you have to do tons of research and write a comprehensive paper. an academic would never get too invested in a discussion that isn't referring to work that hasn't already been done. if it's all about work that needs to be done, then either do the work or stop talking about it. now, idra has certainly done a lot of great work, and gathered some good evidence, that could be used for a discussion on balance. but it's a drop in the bucket. i guess he feels it's enough to make any future work irrelevant and sean doesnt. ---- the excessively argumentative nature of some of these discussions is really hurting the show and im going to purposely try to avoid it. debates that aren't seen through to the very end are worthless (and we can never do that unless it's an incredibly simple issue). they accomplish nothing. one goal of the show is to extract as much useful knowledge as possible out of our pillars and guests. argument and debate are absolutely horrible formats for doing that. especially when debaters get more concerned with winning a debate than understanding their opponent's position. that's inimical to spreading information. it truly encourages one guy on the show to stop someone else on the show from getting their thoughts out so for example, every single one of idra's insights about zerg could be shared without throwing him in a debate against someone who thinks that we can't presently conclude that the game is imbalanced. and i think they can be shared much more efficiently and pleasantly without debate. any time the pillars and guests on the show talk about anything, that's all we have to do is make good points, provide good insights. and then people listening can decide whatever they want. of course, we should be able to engage with each other and criticize each other's points, but debate is a useless extra dimension, that can only detract from constructive discourse
awesome post from a hero
|
United States7483 Posts
On May 06 2011 06:08 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:59 Whitewing wrote:On May 06 2011 05:45 branflakes14 wrote:
Idra currently talking about how a Protoss blocking his fast expansion with a Pylon is a sign that the Protoss knows he can't compete with Idra and has to compensate. The view inside his colon must be amazing, he's obsessed with it. I honestly have no idea how or why people take him seriously. Lol, I know right? Let's be honest here: Protoss can gain an advantage by blocking the hatch with a pylon. Therefore, it is dumb not to do it. Period. There's no reason not to do it, unless you're in a rare situation where your build can't afford it, or you lost the probe or something. This isn't what he said at all, but its cool what idra antifans hear
*Shrug* I like IdrA, I didn't see the stream, was responding to what someone said under the assumption they weren't lying. I apologize if they were in fact full of shit, which invalidates my comment.
Still though, Protoss should always block the hatch, no matter what. Do it.
|
On May 06 2011 06:09 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:05 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 06 2011 05:45 branflakes14 wrote:
Idra currently talking about how a Protoss blocking his fast expansion with a Pylon is a sign that the Protoss knows he can't compete with Idra and has to compensate. The view inside his colon must be amazing, he's obsessed with it. I honestly have no idea how or why people take him seriously. He was talking about how the Protoss controlled his probe shittily and compensated for it by placing the pylon prematurely. Please don't twist people's words. Also it amazes me that you're watching his stream for apparently the sole purpose of finding ways to shit on him. You really have nothing better to do? Hm, watched it too and interpreted it the same way as the 2 other guys :o "prematurely" was not a word he used. Anyway I watch his stream because he plays well and I like it, it's not because you notice some silly things he says that it makes it not worth watching.
He said it seemed like cheating because they couldn't block it with micro. It was more of a humorous observation than anything else.
|
+ Show Spoiler +Quote's from Nestea's latest interview after his GSL matches:
"There’s not much a zerg player can prepare mechanically for the match. Rather, you have to design strategies so that you see the flow of your opponent’s race and playstyle and make it difficult for him to proceed. When zergs win, I would say you have to be a bit ‘lucky."
"I think playing zerg right now is really difficult. There isn’t a solution that you can just find. I think it is something that I will have to find by spending time on and studying the matchups. I feel a bit of pressure and responsibilities to do so (for all zerg players)."
Coming from arguably the best zerg player in Korea right now and maybe the world.. so really it's BS when people say "no other zergs" feel the way Idra does... in fact most top zergs agree with Idra, specifically korean zergs...
not saying there's no solutions out there.. but it's ridiculous when people try to argue that in the current state of the game there is no problems with zerg....
|
Stop comparing IdrA to Destiny or whatever. I don't think IdrA is complaining about random games on the ladder. When you go up against some random guy, he usually won't have a sneaky build up his sleeve or w/e, and you can usually deduce whats he's doing, because he's not going to be playing exactly for IdrA.
But when you are in a bo5/bo7 etc, then you do need to be aware. Because most of the time he will have specific and thought out builds, that you do have to scout. Destiny has never really played a big bo.5, and I've yet to see Sheth play any big player in a bo.5 (except for against IdrA, where Sheth lost 0-3 btw)
Worded it a little oddly, but the point is kind hard to put into words
|
So I guess JP stands for Jumplestiltskin. I applaud Artosis for finally solving that mystery for us.
itmeJP:
@Artosis I can't believe you said my name on air Dan
10 hours ago via web
|
On May 06 2011 06:14 stk01001 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Quote's from Nestea's latest interview after his GSL matches:
"There’s not much a zerg player can prepare mechanically for the match. Rather, you have to design strategies so that you see the flow of your opponent’s race and playstyle and make it difficult for him to proceed. When zergs win, I would say you have to be a bit ‘lucky."
"I think playing zerg right now is really difficult. There isn’t a solution that you can just find. I think it is something that I will have to find by spending time on and studying the matchups. I feel a bit of pressure and responsibilities to do so (for all zerg players)." Coming from arguably the best zerg player in Korea right now and maybe the world.. so really it's BS when people say "no other zergs" feel the way Idra does... in fact most top zergs agree with Idra, specifically korean zergs... not saying there's no solutions out there.. but it's ridiculous when people try to argue that in the current state of the game there is no problems with zerg....
Poor Nestea is like idra who's life's so hard that he just won a 5k tourney, with his GSL title and his royal road to a 2nd title with only weak opposition left.
Sorry, I'm sarcastic but hearing that after 100000$ of winnings makes me angry. Perhaps he thinks protoss and terrans have it easy, when MC and MVP are whining about their race too, I tend to take no complain seriously.
Nestea had one rough GSL, MKP, MC too, MVP even went to code A. Perhaps his training sessions are hard, but at least result wise, and that goes for idra too, I don't see any reason for complaining.
|
On May 06 2011 06:14 stk01001 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Quote's from Nestea's latest interview after his GSL matches:
"There’s not much a zerg player can prepare mechanically for the match. Rather, you have to design strategies so that you see the flow of your opponent’s race and playstyle and make it difficult for him to proceed. When zergs win, I would say you have to be a bit ‘lucky."
"I think playing zerg right now is really difficult. There isn’t a solution that you can just find. I think it is something that I will have to find by spending time on and studying the matchups. I feel a bit of pressure and responsibilities to do so (for all zerg players)." Coming from arguably the best zerg player in Korea right now and maybe the world.. so really it's BS when people say "no other zergs" feel the way Idra does... in fact most top zergs agree with Idra, specifically korean zergs... not saying there's no solutions out there.. but it's ridiculous when people try to argue that in the current state of the game there is no problems with zerg....
You realize that it doesn't fucking matter anymore, because of the ball we have rolling.
I honestly feel like IdrA's attitude towards the game has massively amplified the Zerg's opinion of balance when if you look at foreign results right now, which have a fairly decent sample size, each race is coming up with roughly a 50% win rate...
Quoting NesTea doesn't prove anything substantial about the situation really...
MVP said Terran is the weakest race right now... HEY! He's a top player, some other top players have highlighted problems they have...
This doesn't fucking work anymore, of course he's going to say his race is the weakest because we're at a point where having the opinion, "Yeah, the game is balanced" is a fucking liability since people with adopted the view that, "If a top player is bitching it must be an issue".
IdrA just came off of a tournament win and said, Zerg is shit, we don't win anything... How does this fucking work?
When you win, it's crazy luck, when you lose, the game is broken. How is there almost a 50% win rate for all races in the foreign scene?
|
On May 06 2011 05:54 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:48 Galek wrote:
Hm so for me it looks like spine crawlers are built faster than sunken colonies were in broodwar (counted it in SC2 time, I might be wrong about this). I don't really recall anything about zergs in BW having better scouting than zergs in SC2, was there any big imbalance crying about scouting in BW? Still you could do as T/P some crazy stuff when it wasnt scouted in that game which is considered rather as a balanced one. I'm honestly trying to look at things objectively but after hearing Idra about him being good becouse he is playing a lot for a long time so he is supposed to win, I don't know really what to think. With this attitude I get this in way like "Since I train hard enough and everyone is obviously worse than me, I should win 100% or its something wrong with the game" but thats only how I feel about this kind of attitude.
Don't bash me please and I would greatly appreciate if someone would refer to my BW lines couse I might be totally wrong and getting additional knowledge is always useful. Thing is that Sunkens were a two part process, if you did the first part (creep colonies) proactively then you could do the second part reactively. You can't do that with spines, it has to be entirely proactive (bad unless you have conclusive scouting information) or reactive (not really possible because of the build time)
Aye I see now, kinda forgot that sunken could be used in this proactive/reactive style. Actually now I wonder how much would spine crawler build time buff help to compensate for lack of scouting, if it would help at all. Maybe bringing back BW style of static defense for zerg would do something, lets say "Creep Crawler" which you can build earlier and morph into spine/spore when it's needed. Morph time though could be tricky, I see some crazy pushes coming with that premade "almost spine" (creep crawler could be rooted into one position until it's upgraded, however). I can't think of any overlord improvements right now since there is overseer (lair, sure but for P to have hallu/obs there is some need for gas as well and for T scan means less money). As scouting regardless wall goes, well zergs in BW had the same problem if I'm thinking correctly though they had better defense options. So the problem may be in crawlers rather than in overlords.
|
On May 06 2011 05:28 smallerk wrote:
I very much agree with tylers post, i think that kind of discussion does not benefit the show in any way, debates dont belong in sotg in my opinion.
Nice post Tyler. Searching for the truth is the most important aspect of any of these discussions.
|
On May 06 2011 06:22 Zim23 wrote:So I guess JP stands for Jumplestiltskin. I applaud Artosis for finally solving that mystery for us. Show nested quote +itmeJP:
@Artosis I can't believe you said my name on air Dan
10 hours ago via web
If anyone was lucky enough to be watching JP's stream the other night when Day9 called him, they know JP's true name.
|
On May 06 2011 06:23 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:14 stk01001 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Quote's from Nestea's latest interview after his GSL matches:
"There’s not much a zerg player can prepare mechanically for the match. Rather, you have to design strategies so that you see the flow of your opponent’s race and playstyle and make it difficult for him to proceed. When zergs win, I would say you have to be a bit ‘lucky."
"I think playing zerg right now is really difficult. There isn’t a solution that you can just find. I think it is something that I will have to find by spending time on and studying the matchups. I feel a bit of pressure and responsibilities to do so (for all zerg players)." Coming from arguably the best zerg player in Korea right now and maybe the world.. so really it's BS when people say "no other zergs" feel the way Idra does... in fact most top zergs agree with Idra, specifically korean zergs... not saying there's no solutions out there.. but it's ridiculous when people try to argue that in the current state of the game there is no problems with zerg.... Poor Nestea is like idra who's life's so hard that he just won a 5k tourney, with his GSL title and his royal road to a 2nd title with only weak opposition left. Sorry, I'm sarcastic but hearing that after 100000$ of winnings makes me angry. Perhaps he thinks protoss and terrans have it easy, when MC and MVP are whining about their race too, I tend to take no complain seriously. Nestea had one rough GSL, MKP, MC too, MVP even went to code A. Perhaps his training sessions are hard, but at least result wise, and that goes for idra too, I don't see any reason for complaining.
Most zergs would rather play straight up games than leave their results to chance, but apparently straight up games don't win you tournaments. IdrA said he's doing retarded cheeses because that's the only way to win, and now Nestea is somewhat echoing that sentiment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
