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10387 Posts
On August 04 2010 17:47 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:42 figq wrote:On August 04 2010 17:29 ArvickHero wrote:Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
Fantasy probably only listed it because he's thinking realistically, that at some point he'll have to switch to SC2 if BW dies out. As for Upmagic.. I guess you missed the newspost where there was netizen outrage about him even considering to play SC2 professionally? Sure, but both cases show the Korean interest in SC2 is growing, and pro's are taking it very seriously. People wouldn't care much if Upmagic played minesweeper competitively. To put things in perspective, Boxer stated that he was prepared to switch to WC3 if that became the main eSport when it came out. Plus the match fixers are pretty much universally reviled in Korea, if they try to get back into eSports in any way, there will be an uproar. Neither of these instances show that interest in SC2 is growing in Korea, it was pretty much the same as it always was.. more like its starting to shrink with the dismal numbers.
On August 04 2010 17:45 {ToT}ColmA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:29 ArvickHero wrote:Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
Fantasy probably only listed it because he's thinking realistically, that at some point he'll have to switch to SC2 if BW dies out. As for Upmagic.. I guess you missed the newspost where there was netizen outrage about him even considering to play SC2 professionally? and to those saying that Korea is not important to SC2.. you have got to be seriously kidding yourselves. If SC2 doesn't succeed in Korea, do you think you'll ever see anything as prestigious as the OSL, or something as glorious as a PL final on Gwanganri? Not to mention if BW was dominated by foreigners instead of Koreans, the game would be 3-5 years behind where it is now. PvZ would probably look something like Undead vs Orc. Also this talk about Blizzard closely collaborating with top pros for balancing.. I don't think that's that great of an idea. Sure it might balance the game in its current state, but it would effectively limit strategical options and evolution imo. One great beauty of BW was that the game was essentially unchanged since 2000, and instead of going to Blizzard to whine about some unit being OP they just dealt with it and the game was balanced by maps and their own play. Then again, when a lot of the units actually weren't that well designed, maybe it's better to just collaborate with the pros.. OSL etc earned its status _over time_ cause back in the day it was just good to have and it evolved into what it is now. on a sidenote u should not spread false information as for example 1.08 happend in 2001 which was huge (remember the 150>200 pool?)
el oh el, prestige by name is one thing, but I was more referring to something like the Finals being held LIVE in front of tens of thousands of people.. no online tourney will ever even closely rival that, regardless of how long its been played over time.
And jeez, one year difference, simple mistake. Did it look like I was intentionally being malicious?
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On August 04 2010 17:47 ArvickHero wrote:
Plus the match fixers are pretty much universally reviled in Korea, if they try to get back into eSports in any way, there will be an uproar. Which proves SC2 is considered a serious esport by Koreans, otherwise they wouldn't care about matchfixers joining something that's failing to become esport anyway.
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On August 04 2010 17:47 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:42 figq wrote:On August 04 2010 17:29 ArvickHero wrote:Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
Fantasy probably only listed it because he's thinking realistically, that at some point he'll have to switch to SC2 if BW dies out. As for Upmagic.. I guess you missed the newspost where there was netizen outrage about him even considering to play SC2 professionally? Sure, but both cases show the Korean interest in SC2 is growing, and pro's are taking it very seriously. People wouldn't care much if Upmagic played minesweeper competitively. To put things in perspective, Boxer stated that he was prepared to switch to WC3 if that became the main eSport when it came out. Plus the match fixers are pretty much universally reviled in Korea, if they try to get back into eSports in any way, there will be an uproar. Neither of these instances show that interest in SC2 is growing in Korea, it was pretty much the same as it always was.. more like its starting to shrink with the dismal numbers.
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As has been stated, there are multiple factors that make the data posted--at best--to be taken with a grain of salt. While it's understandable that people have some scornful emotions towards SC2 for a variety of reasons, it's a somewhat premature to make sweeping claims about SC2's potential as a progaming sport and/or its success in Korea.
The fact there is a lot invested in programing BW in Korea (i.e. money) means it will not be an overnight thing. Furthermore, the way the game is being marketed means it will be hard to pin-point sales figures (give it 3-4 months). Even if the game does not catch on in Korea and it does in US/EU, I don't understand the problem with that?
Regarding my personal opinion--and yes, I know I'm not super good at this game--this is a strategy game. This makes the APM/skill cap arguments somewhat questionable. If you take out the menial tasks out of BW (probe rallying, etc) what would you say a decent APM is? Does the fact workers actually mine on their own make this less of a strategy game? I can concede to arguments about muta micro and all that -- though, those probably developed from an engine made in 1998 more than on purpose.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the trash talking was politics. Even if there was no controversy as to SC2's skill and/or lack thereof, there would be a lot ot be lost for people whose paychecks rely on years of practice. I certainly would not want to switch to a game that I start at zero with. You can't factor out idolizing (of the game) either. Obviously, these are speculations and cannot be supported with "sources".
At the end of the day, all this animosity is befuddling. If you love BW, then it still exists. Blizzard is a company, and they (seemingly) did their best to try to make the core game as solid as possible. Perhaps their math was off or perhaps David Kim did a crappy job consulting -- who knows? As much as you and everybody else wanted the game to be everything you dreamed, there was no promises etched in a scroll. This just seems like a severe overreaction to something that has no affect if the naysayers are right.
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Edit:
God I can`t believe I made an account just to put this point out... <.<
Very interesting to get your input Clogon.
On August 04 2010 17:40 Clogon wrote:
I guess these "Experts" who are looking at the game time of SC2 on net cafés fail to realize that one CANNOT play SC2 without buying the game in the first place!
I blame Activision for making b.net 2,0 the way it is. People who goes to net cafés usually just need to pay the store and are able to play SC1 and WC3 without the need of buying the game. However because of how b.net 2.0 is fail, it forces potential players in net cafés to buy the game to even play SC2. If they had a copy of SC2 why would they need to go to a net café in the first place?
Unlike here in the western hemisphere, Asia`s people don`t usually own a personal computer. When they need one they just go to a net café. Many of you may not understand this but just imagine the following scenario:
I am a highschooler in korea. It is the holidays but I don`t have a PC and only have enough money to play at net cafés occasionally. Why would I buy a $60 game AND pay the net café to play a game that I won`t have much time to spend with?
So of course SC2 will fail in the net cafés. Activision is forcing anyone who even wants to try the game to buy it!
Edit:
God I can`t believe I made an account just to put this point out...
Well, in past times, the net cafes would have to buy the game to install them on their pc's, and then the users would pay to rent the pc and the game. Now the game client is free to download, but the players needs to have a licensed battle.net account to play. So the tables have turned, but I wouldn't really call it unfair.
Hopefully Blizzard willy be able to find a payment model that could that suits your country. Also, 60$ seems expensive, you should expect to pay more like 40-45.
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IMO success has to do with how exciting the game is as others have pointed out in the thread.
KOTB had some nail biting moments and good reactions from the crowd. It is probably the only event that has given me faith in the future of SC2 being spectator friendly.
Those games however would have been mediocre to watch if it were not for the big names playing, the good commentary, and money and pride on the line. It creates an atmosphere similar to BW games were reputations of good players are at stake, and shots at money along with countless hours spent preparing for those moments. People enjoy knowing how much they work for that game you are about to watch. When you watch pros play BW you are watching people who dedicate their lives to it and have made a name for themselves over time.
The only current player that really interests people and care about him winning is TLO, he provides everything a player wants with creative plays, but doesn't win as much as people would like
In BW there were REEBO REEBO!, dropship saves, plague, mines, zealot drops, and more.
In StarCraft 2 all the abilities that can give "wow moments" come way too late to keep people interested in the early game
-Thor drops have been nerfed are no longer special or utilized as often because of the fire rate nerf, and are limited to being dropped on cliffs or used as mobile defense turrets for an insta win vs mutalisks on most occasions.
-Reapers and Hellions are the Omg how many kills is he going to get?! Until a stalker or speedlings arrive and reapers disappear and go find some place to refuel at a xel naga for the remainder of the game. Hellions however can create excitement frying drones and now find use into armies for late game.
-Infestors with fungal growth can sneak into mineral lines and decimate a worker line if the expo is recently put up, this comes far too late into a game to be exciting. Everyone has far too many workers at that point, and can be fixed using mules and chrono boosts. Neural Parasite used to have a wow factor when players could position them correctly to make it difficult for the enemy to hit them, but now they have added a timer making it much less exciting almost certainly because they had to increase the range of the parasite so it didn't get rolled by Terran's ranged units.
-Siege tanks don't overkill. Dropship play, zealot bombs, infested terran being useful? none. This leads games against terran to be a turtle fest with normally no way to advance and instead cause most players to wait until they are out of position. (Grats on your "flanking" you zerg so skillfully use.)
-Banelings are probably the only early game unit that causes an actually wow factor. Whether they are burrowed waiting for units to walk over them, or sadly rarely dropped by overlords because with such small maps resources are usually not spent on 200/200 overlord carry. Right now banelings are just normally used to hard counter bio or do a baneling bust as zerg's only timing attack. Boring.
Doom Drops are scarcely used due to the small map sizes, unless you have a complete advantage most of the time you are just initiating a base race, causing the enemy to send a group of marauders stimming from expo to expo mowing them down while being cutesy with nydus worms, overlords, other drop ships.
I could go into how much the strategies and build orders have changed drastically and for the better since the beginning of the beta, but it is late.
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On August 04 2010 18:01 gospelwut wrote:Regarding my personal opinion--and yes, I know I'm not super good at this game--this is a strategy game.
No it is real time strategy so it requires both speed/precise of execution, and strategy, the same for SC2 just less speed/precise of execution.
Less speed/precise of execution =/= more strategy.
On August 04 2010 18:01 gospelwut wrote:This makes the APM/skill cap arguments somewhat questionable. If you take out the menial tasks out of BW (probe rallying, etc) what would you say a decent APM is? Does the fact workers actually mine on their own make this less of a strategy game?
Yes it does as nobody can do everything, you need to decide what actions are more important, that is way more complex then only deciding what actions are worth doing.
On August 04 2010 18:01 gospelwut wrote: I can concede to arguments about muta micro and all that -- though, those probably developed from an engine made in 1998 more than on purpose.
So what? Keyboard+mouse wasn't design to control games, that doesn't make gamepads better.
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The game is 7 days old - wtf is this discussion about exactly?
All the arguments and shit that this thread is about has already been presented. Things take time to evolve, and regardless of how SC2 will fail or not that wont show until later.
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I see lots of people playing SC2 in PC bangs here in Seoul. I see many doing single player, maybe they want to get the feel of the game first.
Also remember that SC2 is free to play here (for now) if you have a korean b.net account. So there's no reason for a korean to buy a copy yet.
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Don't you get Starcraft 2 for free and pay to play in South Korea? That's why it doesn't show up in the sales.
Edit: WHY DO WE CRY ABOUT BALANCE ISSUES THERE NOT BEING ENOUGH SKILL IN MICROING OR THE SLOWER PACE OF THE GAME.
We got a great editor where we can fix all that, sort off like a promod. I know this community isn't fond of that. But yeah, stop crying.
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Canada2480 Posts
On August 04 2010 13:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk.
from Nalra's oldboy episode 11 (if I remember)
Nalra: shiel batteries should be able to regenerate shield all over the map
random KT player: that sounds like SC2
Flash: Nah, that game is crap (not sure if FlaSh was the one who said it but it looked like it, someone from the KT house at least)
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On August 04 2010 18:18 Polis wrote:
Less speed/precise of execution =/= more strategy. That's the thing - why not? You can be sure people will be spending the remaining game time / pace into something. I'd rather see them do more flanks, feints, drops, heals, repairs, than spend this energy on clicking 15 barracks one by one. Yes, those things are tactics, but improving tactics leads to improving strategies. This already happens to some extent if one watches how Koreans play SC2 and compares with others.
It's a bit sad if BW = SC2 + more challenging click/press rate. It's not who plays better strategy, but who plays better strategy while doing some redundant (but required) actions to execute it. Like they could add a special sub-game to be clicked and pressed within SC2 - if you want to build from 10 gateways, you are required 150 more actions per minute on the mini-game. It's like playing fast chess while... solving a ton of 3rd grade math problems. You want a queen move? Okay, but first solve ten of those: x+3 = 14/5. Sweating already? Jaedong is not sweating!
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On August 04 2010 17:29 Dr.Frost wrote:
Sc2 in Korea is still open beta isn't it?
Yeah.... I wouldn't be too concerned with sales figures. The Lan played time is revealing, but I'm sure when/if professional sc2 begins the game will take off.
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On August 04 2010 18:18 Polis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 18:01 gospelwut wrote: I can concede to arguments about muta micro and all that -- though, those probably developed from an engine made in 1998 more than on purpose. So what? Keyboard+mouse wasn't design to control games, that doesn't make gamepads better.
I probably articulated that poorly. I didn't mean to insult it as much say some elements of BW were naturally going ot be more difficult to emulate with a more sophisticated engine.--regardless of such criticism of things like the cascading pushing, etc.
I can understand your point on the RTS and choice of action though. I would make the argument that the remaining APM of high-level playres could be spent doing other things. Only time will prove if I'm right/wrong.
On August 04 2010 18:40 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 18:18 Polis wrote:
Less speed/precise of execution =/= more strategy. That's the thing - why not? You can be sure people will be spending the remaining game time / pace into something. I'd rather see them do more flanks, feints, drops, heals, repairs, than spend this energy on clicking 15 barracks one by one. Yes, those things are tactics, but improving tactics leads to improving strategies. This already happens to some extent if one watches how Koreans play SC2 and compares with others. It's a bit sad if BW = SC2 + more challenging click/press rate. It's not who plays better strategy, but who plays better strategy while doing some redundant (but required) actions to execute it. Like they could add a special sub-game to be clicked and pressed within SC2 - if you want to build from 10 gateways, you are required 150 more actions per minute on the mini-game. It's like playing fast chess while... solving a ton of 3rd grade math problems. You want a queen move? Okay, but first solve ten of those: x+3 = 14/5. Sweating already? Jaedong is not sweating!
Hey, I loved the calculator in FFT - heh.
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There is an old Korean saying: “Ten years are enough to change rivers and mountains.”
Needless to say, Korea’s online gaming scene moves even more quickly, and when “StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty” made its debut last week it was into a vastly different market from the one that greeted the original “StarCraft” in 1998.
That didn’t stop Hahn Jung-won, Blizzard Entertainment’s regional managing director for North Asia, from telling a cheering crowd at a launch party in Gangnam, southern Seoul last Monday night, “It has finally come!”
However, the past week has revealed challenges that Blizzard Entertainment, the U.S.-based developer of the critically-acclaimed sequel, must overcome in Korea, where the original StarCraft set off a professional gaming craze.
Not only will StarCraft II have to compete against the first games - still very popular here - it also has legitimate rivals in other franchises.
According to market researcher Gametrics, on Monday, the day before StarCraft II’s debut, the most-played game at Korea’s ubiquitous PC bang game rooms was “Aion,” from domestic developer NCsoft, followed by Neowiz Games’ “FIFA Online,” CJ Internet’s “Sudden Attack” and Nexon’s “MapleStory.”
“Compared to 10 years ago, there are several Korean-made online games that are proving well-made and competitive,” said an industry insider. “It would be difficult to leave a strong impression among them.”
FIFA Online, in particular, has recently seen its popularity surge after the World Cup, while MapleStory set a record for online users of 410,000 after its latest update.
For this reason, analysts predict StarCraft II will not automatically make a big market splash. “We haven’t yet detected a large number of people who play other games like those from NCsoft switching to StarCraft II,” said Kim Chang-geon, an analyst at Daewoo Securities.
Blizzard also has to resolve two major issues affecting PC bang and e-sports leagues - factors that had everything to do with the first StarCraft’s explosive success.
The developer decided to charge PC bangs 250 won ($0.21) per hour to play the game, a change from the first game, which demanded only the purchase price.
“There isn’t yet a sign of collaborative movement from PC bang owners, but they are certainly not happy with the charge and this has contributed to [the game’s] lackluster performance so far,” said an official with the Korea Internet PC Culture Association.
Blizzard is also experiencing friction with the Korean e-Sports Association, or KeSPA, over StarCraft’s copyright. Blizzard claims the association made a profit selling StarCraft broadcast licenses without consent, but KeSPA complains the company is only raising the issue now that e-sports has driven up sales.
Blizzard recently signed an exclusive broadcasting contract with Gretech, a software company that operates the Web channel GOMtv. This means KeSPA will have to pay Gretech to broadcast pro-StarCraft matches.
The state-run Korea Creative Content Agency announced last week that it will intervene. “Our basic principle is to acknowledge Blizzard’s copyrights of StarCraft,” an agency official said.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2924061
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I don't think SC2 is going to flop in Korea at all. I just think it will take them some time to warm up to it!
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On August 04 2010 14 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 14 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:04 backtoback wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 13:55 Sfydjklm wrote:
Don't hear Moon and his enormous salary go around complaining about how WC3 failed in korea. haha nice! I can't even tell why watching WC3 is even good compared to BW and moon makes the $$$$
Well I could tell you that above a cup of coffee, anyday.
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SC2 has been released for a week.
Calm down with your statistics.
Of course SK is going to be reluctant to switch from SC to SC2.
It's like their national sport. Give them time to see SC2's economical potential and they will switch.
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On August 04 2010 17:36 dafunk wrote:
Watching old BW VODs is painful and not entertaining. They dont do efficient stuff, they cant harass properly, they were just bad.
Same apply for SC2.
The game has been out for a week.
Why cant you understand this ? How is this difficult ?
How models or animations can remove the fun from a game ? Its like saying BW isnt fun to watch cause its old and has bad graphics. You're using the same arguments that bashers are using against BW.
You're talking about low hp units that can do tons of damage. Banelings ? hellions (they do more damage to workers than vultures) ? HT, Colossi ?
There will be huge games, when some pro koreans will take the game seriously, you'll see ton of baneling drops onto workers with infestors, nydus flank on other army, offensive nydus and countless other things.
The game will be fun to watch when there will be huge money on the line and when people will have practice thousand of hours and find out every little glitch, balance in the game and timings.
It will take years, several patches and expansions, what do you expect ?
I don't know why people consistently bring up the fact that SC2 has only been out a week ALL THE TIME, as if the initial 10 years of playing SCBW have no impact at all on how quickly people will come up with strategies or how quickly people will be efficient.
Models and animations can remove fun from the game when they are clunky and sound horrible. Yes SCBW doesn't have the best graphics but the graphics it does have are absolutely perfect for what they do. It's a matter of opinion. I personally have no real problem with the way SC2 looks.
As for low hp units that can do tons of damage....You mention banelings and that's about it. SC2 in general is a slower paced game, it's a pretty undeniable statement and you compound this with the fact that worker harass has less impact in SC2 compared to SC1 due to the macro mechanics added and the way the worker AI works to gather resources.
I just find it kind of funny that everyone just assumes SC2 will be big in Korea as if its a forgone conclusion. One I don't see. This isn't some glorymongering dream to keep SCBW in the spotlight or anything (I really hoped SC2 would take BW's place...) but more of the realization that BW is an outlier. All those glitches and game quirks in BW came together to make a nearly perfectly balanced game. SC2 isn't going to HAVE those glitches...hell Blizzard couldn't even replicate stacking mutalisks.
I don't think there will ever be an SC2 equivalent of the OSL/MSL but meh that's just me.
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If you think the game is so bad, why are you posting about it on a Starcraft site?
It really doesn't matter how well the game even does in Korea, unless that effects you're own enjoyment of the game . . .
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EPT
