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dambros
Brazil432 Posts
I tried to understand this but after a lot of research I couldn't get why. So here I am looking for an explanation. Is there a specific reason for not going ghost against protoss? I always thought ghost can counter protoss army, even though they aren't using HTs, but I may be wrong. Thanks in advance for the explanation and sorry for the english. Edit: Tittle was supposed to be "WHY ..." instead of "HOW ..." but I can't change it now :/ | ||
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ziteNiA
Sweden73 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Necrosjef
United Kingdom530 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:34 ziteNiA wrote: Terran is so good atm that you dont really need ghost This is one reason. The second reason is that to use EMP AND stim you really need 2 control groups and that is just adding a level of complication to a situation where you simply only need 1 control group of units to win the game. Most games all Terran require to win is mass barracks spamming M&M with 1 starport making medevacs then 1a move into the protoss base and press stimpack when you see their army and its gg. User was warned for this post | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
It's worth noting that it's not a choice between ghosts and no ghosts, but a choice between ghosts, and the various other possible gas units--tanks, vikings, medivacs, ravens, etc. A particular player's playstyle or situation might favor the use of one of those other units over a ghost. | ||
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TanX
Denmark92 Posts
Why they don't do it? well, it might be that there simply wasn't room for additional tech within their standard builds. Myself? I wouldn't give the ghost away for anything, it is just too useful to ignore. To the other poster, Stimming and EMP'ing takes like a second due to the wonders of 'tabbing'. | ||
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Monokeros
United States2493 Posts
Also countering colossus (which from my experience is what dominates most MM armies) requires a decent amount of gas as well. It REALLY depends on the game/map/player more than anything ghosts are incredibly viable and useful but people still don't use them for reasons youd probably have to ask them to know. | ||
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Necrosjef
United Kingdom530 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:38 TanX wrote: To the other poster, Stimming and EMP'ing takes like a second due to the wonders of 'tabbing'. Why bother using 2 different hammers when you only need 1? User was warned for this post | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:37 Necrosjef wrote: Most games all Terran require to win is mass barracks spamming M&M with 1 starport making medevacs then 1a move into the protoss base and press stimpack when you see their army and its gg. Not only does this not answer the question, it's flat out an exaggeration. While there's certainly been a lot of legitimate complaint about Terran's power in TvZ (in particular related to 1 unit), I haven't seen any reputable high level player complaining about TvP. Certainly not with regard to bio play. But of course, I'm going way off topic. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
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Tiwo
Netherlands306 Posts
(i completely changed to Mech because when u don't look for 1 moment or are in bad position, they storm your whole army) Thats my intake into this. Also, forgetting re-making ghosts in your macro is also a big flaw in peoples game | ||
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dambros
Brazil432 Posts
As far as I can tell it gets to the same point why protoss don't use HT early (15-20min) as far as I saw on replays it's only after that mark that they usually start getting HTs. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
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EZjijy
United States1039 Posts
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:41 TheYango wrote: Not only does this not answer the question, it's flat out an exaggeration. While there's certainly been a lot of legitimate complaint about Terran's power in TvZ (in particular related to 1 unit), I haven't seen any reputable high level player complaining about TvP. Certainly not with regard to bio play. But of course, I'm going way off topic. Pretty sure Tester is on record as saying T is (or at least was) overpowered (and it hasn't been nerfed much at all since then). | ||
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acrimoneyius
United States983 Posts
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
But I'm finding some problems with mech again so I dunno, I always used ghosts when I played bio builds however. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:54 kzn wrote: Pretty sure Tester is on record as saying T is (or at least was) overpowered (and it hasn't been nerfed much at all since then). He specifically highlighted tanks as an issue, and I'm pretty sure consensus is that tanks are problematic in TvZ. As I said though, bio play has not to my knowledge been cited as a balance issue. | ||
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dambros
Brazil432 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I usually mech TvP and in the beginning I don't have the gas for ghosts, then midgame I don't need ghosts. I might add ghosts late game. But I'm finding some problems with mech again so I dunno, I always used ghosts when I played bio builds however. Do you have some recent replays using bio + ghost that I can see? Maybe a stupid question, but why don't you need ghosts midgame? Thanks for all replies everyone. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:59 dambros wrote: Do you have some recent replays using bio + ghost that I can see? Maybe a stupid question, but why don't you need ghosts midgame? Thanks for all replies everyone. I haven't played much bio tvp in a long time  You don't need ghosts midgame because you have lots of tanks/hellions/ravens/vikings. Ghosts are nice vs immortals, but immortals aren't a threat, and hellions deal nicely with templars. You already do so much splash to everything, shields don't last very long. I dunno, this has been my experience anyway. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
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RandomBS
United States130 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:55 TheYango wrote: He specifically highlighted tanks as an issue, and I'm pretty sure consensus is that tanks are problematic in TvZ. As I said though, bio play has not to my knowledge been cited as a balance issue. The problem is really bad players on this forum see a few threads saying "terran mech is op vs zerg", so they jump on the bandwagon to make excuses for their shitty play by screaming everything they lose to is imba. Really getting tired of every matchup thread devolving into T IS OP LOLOLOLOL within 5 posts. | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
I used to use Ghosts a lot but recently I realised Zealots - Not very effective Sentries - Usually too far and/or FF start of the battle Stalkers - More marauders do a better job Immortals - Banshee/Marauders/Marines but 90% of time Marines Templars - Maybe but isn't microing your MMM out of storm more important anyway? | ||
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Knutzi
Norway664 Posts
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
I dont find mech all that usefull either because hellions are useless against stalkers, and I find most toss players will have a fair amount of stalkers early. So I usually try to go something like Bio-mech, where I use Marines, Tanks, Thors (and vikings where necessary). But I have also had alot more success lately with Marauder, Tank, Viking. Originally Ghost Marine Medivac was working well for me, but again, toss players now just put down a cannon or two when they see it, and then tech to storm and rape. I play platinum so I'm not a star or anything, but those are just my experiences. | ||
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Coindrop
United States203 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12037 Posts
Have been having a lot of trouble with early chargelots though with a lack of marauders, need to work out how to deal with that. | ||
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Coindrop
United States203 Posts
On August 03 2010 00:28 Qikz wrote: I personally play Marine/Ghost/Tank Medivac in TvP from the midgame upwards, having a mix of tanks and ghosts really does compliment each other as the tanks will do instant damage rather than just shield damage. Have been having a lot of trouble with early chargelots though with a lack of marauders, need to work out how to deal with that. Have you tried integrating a few hellions in when you see them massing lots? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12037 Posts
On August 03 2010 00:31 FreshandLegit wrote: Have you tried integrating a few hellions in when you see them massing lots? Well I hadn't, but I'll give it a try next set of ladder games I play later. Thanks for the idea ^^ | ||
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Coindrop
United States203 Posts
On August 03 2010 00:32 Qikz wrote: Well I hadn't, but I'll give it a try next set of ladder games I play later. Thanks for the idea ^^ No problem just make sure to micro them a lot I've found that whenever I use hellions they end up taking the most concentration of anything in my army  | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Be nice if I could sneak HTs into their bases and Feedback all of their Orbital Command energy away. In late game, they've always got a shitload of energy spare for COMSAT. Its the same equivalent as fighting those Banshee + Viking builds from back in Beta and they had the common sense to save a COMSAT for the early push. There's just not a damn thing you can do about it, so why bother trying? | ||
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Voyager I
United States260 Posts
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SilentCrono
United States1420 Posts
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Daxten
Germany127 Posts
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Bigpappaj
57 Posts
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Vortel64
United States18 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:37 Necrosjef wrote: This is one reason. The second reason is that to use EMP AND stim you really need 2 control groups and that is just adding a level of complication to a situation where you simply only need 1 control group of units to win the game. Most games all Terran require to win is mass barracks spamming M&M with 1 starport making medevacs then 1a move into the protoss base and press stimpack when you see their army and its gg. Colossus/High Templar would like a word with you. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 03 2010 01:36 Vortel64 wrote: Colossus/High Templar would like a word with you. So does the forcefield! | ||
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heroyi
United States1064 Posts
maybe bio mech using vikings to snipe colossus. if lucky the toss will a-move, target the vikings and you can just micro to point where your bio isnt damaged at all | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
Forcefield is godly. I win so many games against Terran because they charge up a ramp and let their army get split in two. Almost any bio 1 base-rush cant hurt you if you make good use of sentries and have something of an army. | ||
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
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ExileStrife
United States170 Posts
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BOOWOO
United States83 Posts
I mean, siege tanks are the bread and butter of the terran ground army. When you consider the outrageous damage they do, and the map control they provide with the range, I see them as the best way to spend your gas most of the time. Ghosts can be used in some all-in type early EMP pushes very well, and can fit into the late-game when you've got like 3 bases running and can spare the gas. But as a toss player, once I scout early Ghosts I just make sure not to commit my army to an engagement until I have Collosi to melt the bio ball. Sometimes I get caught off guard with an early push though, and a well placed EMP basically wins the game. | ||
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dambros
Brazil432 Posts
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Necrosjef
United Kingdom530 Posts
On August 03 2010 01:42 Ndugu wrote: Forcefield is godly. I win so many games against Terran because they charge up a ramp and let their army get split in two. Almost any bio 1 base-rush cant hurt you if you make good use of sentries and have something of an army. This post is pretty intelligent - word of the wise to Protoss players, if you aren't using sentries to wall your ramp you aren't doing it right. I wonder if just make 2 gate sentry zealot spam, make like 4 sentries to perma wall your ramp and just go straight for higher tech units would work. Might be something worth looking into on certain maps. Would be very annoying for a terran player to arrive with his whole bio army only to find 5 sentries lolling at him from up the ramp while the protoss player is teching up to collosus or whatever. | ||
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gerundium
Netherlands786 Posts
On August 03 2010 01:54 Necrosjef wrote: This post is pretty intelligent - word of the wise to Protoss players, if you aren't using sentries to wall your ramp you aren't doing it right. I wonder if just make 2 gate sentry zealot spam, make like 4 sentries to perma wall your ramp and just go straight for higher tech units would work. Might be something worth looking into on certain maps. Would be very annoying for a terran player to arrive with his whole bio army only to find 5 sentries lolling at him from up the ramp while the protoss player is teching up to collosus or whatever. And then he scans your ramp and snipes the sentries. Uh oh. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
2. would take skill to use 2 groups and aim with emp 3. oh noez so expensive?!?! so what are templars then with all the tech needed?! User was warned for this post | ||
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MadJack
Peru357 Posts
[QUOTE]On August 03 2010 01:42 Ndugu wrote: [QUOTE]On August 03 2010 01:38 Dente wrote: [QUOTE]On August 03 2010 01:36 Vortel64 wrote: Colossus/High Templar would like a word with you. [/QUOTE] So does the forcefield![/QUOTE] Forcefield is godly. I win so many games against Terran because they charge up a ramp and let their army get split in two. Almost any bio 1 base-rush cant hurt you if you make good use of sentries and have something of an army. [/QUOTE] This post is pretty intelligent - word of the wise to Protoss players, if you aren't using sentries to wall your ramp you aren't doing it right. I wonder if just make 2 gate sentry zealot spam, make like 4 sentries to perma wall your ramp and just go straight for higher tech units would work. Might be something worth looking into on certain maps. Would be very annoying for a terran player to arrive with his whole bio army only to find 5 sentries lolling at him from up the ramp while the protoss player is teching up to collosus or whatever.[/QUOTE] Sentries already are gas heavy, having 4-5 means 400-500 gas, and i dont think sentrie's energy will last you long enough so that you can get Collos, dont even think about HT (being in 1 base 1 Collo would be very much gas cheaper than 2 HT's and much more effective cuz with HT you only have 2 shots at dmgin his army, and if by any chance you fail at it your fuck'd, the collo can be microed and do limitless amount of dmg. | ||
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Voyager I
United States260 Posts
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SiegeFlank
United States410 Posts
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makoplux
88 Posts
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:41 TheYango wrote: Not only does this not answer the question, it's flat out an exaggeration. While there's certainly been a lot of legitimate complaint about Terran's power in TvZ (in particular related to 1 unit), I haven't seen any reputable high level player complaining about TvP. Certainly not with regard to bio play.. At least WhiteRa already criticized marauders with medivacs which saying in his opinion are very hard to deal with. Tester criticized the whole race, saying it was overpowered in the hands of very good players, focusing on tanks and its possiblities to harass and attack. Even if he was wrong, we should part from the assumption that there is imbalance until evidence / very strong suspicious pointing in contrary, and not the other way around like some people love to do. On August 03 2010 00:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: You don't need ghosts midgame because you have lots of tanks/hellions/ravens/vikings. Ghosts are nice vs immortals, but immortals aren't a threat, and hellions deal nicely with templars. You already do so much splash to everything, shields don't last very long. I dunno, this has been my experience anyway. Immortals aren't a threat when dealing with the units they supposedly hard counter. And if they were you could, even though you don't need, add in one of its hard counter, which you probably already have (marines / ghosts). Isn't that nice to hear? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
so most T do not build ghosts because bio can support itself if the P builds no templar. I still ghostmech a lot aka ghosts+mech, so...it really depends on your style or who you are playing. Like jinro said, early to mid-game ghosts are not always an absolute necessity, but a little past mid-game then you can incorporate ghosts with mech, not just for EMP, but for nukes later as well. along with the "not many P are abusing templar" a lot of Protoss from what i've experienced try to accumulate thermal lance upgraded collosus if they see you going mech, so the getting the resource management down to get reactored vikings + ghosts + mech + upgrades is way too difficult right now for lots of players. | ||
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
Mech and bio are both popular. Just like how protoss can go templar or colossus against bio. | ||
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
I think that in about 40% of the TvP's i see Ghosts. They are extremely good against Protoss (obviously). But as Terran, you also have other Tech options and i think that Ghosts only really shine, if the opponent goes Templar. The other Problem could be, that teching to Ghosts early leaves you vulnerable for a 4-5 Warpgate all-in or an early Voidray. | ||
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Polar_Nada
United States1548 Posts
On August 03 2010 03:22 Melt wrote: I actually see quite a lot of Ghost play! I think that in about 40% of the TvP's i see Ghosts. They are extremely good against Protoss (obviously). But as Terran, you also have other Tech options and i think that Ghosts only really shine, if the opponent goes Templar. The other Problem could be, that teching to Ghosts early leaves you vulnerable for a 4-5 Warpgate all-in or an early Voidray. i find that early ghosts COUNTER voidrays. emp it once and take it down with marines =) | ||
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
On August 03 2010 03:24 Polar_Nada wrote: i find that early ghosts COUNTER voidrays. emp it once and take it down with marines =) That could very well be, it was more of a guess But i think that it doesn't give you quite of an advantage either... imo it's down to micro. | ||
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AyJay
1515 Posts
If terran was op it would be balanced, blizzard aren't idiots. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:29 dambros wrote: I'm a noob in the process of learning this game and lately I've been watching a LOT of replays from top terran players (like qxc, Jinro, Tarson, DeMusliM, etc) and I've seen so few of them using ghosts against protoss. Usually the toss player wins and there wasn't a single ghost in the match. I tried to understand this but after a lot of research I couldn't get why. So here I am looking for an explanation. Is there a specific reason for not going ghost against protoss? I always thought ghost can counter protoss army, even though they aren't using HTs, but I may be wrong. Thanks in advance for the explanation and sorry for the english. Edit: Tittle was supposed to be "WHY ..." instead of "HOW ..." but I can't change it now :/ Ghosts are F'ing expensive and take a long ass time to build, that's why. Sure, they're great, but the investment is massive and you have to properly time when you bring Ghosts out or that EMP is useless because the P army will still roll over your entire army right there. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
I began working with this build and found that I need to be able to apply pressure. I found out that if I cut the ghosts (two ghosts = 400 gas, one ghost = 250 gas - that's a lot of time saved) I can do a marine/marauder with stim and cs push before colossus can hit the field. Ghosts are a large gas (read: gas is time) investment and limits your options early. As for lategame, I don't think there's any excuse for not using ghosts in the lategame. | ||
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luckySe7en
148 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I usually mech TvP and in the beginning I don't have the gas for ghosts, then midgame I don't need ghosts. I might add ghosts late game. But I'm finding some problems with mech again so I dunno, I always used ghosts when I played bio builds however. ya, this. i play turtle mech, so i don't get ghosts until there is a possibility that the protoss might attack me with ground. usually he's doing some voidray shinanigans, so i actually end up having tanks + thors, and maybe even vikings before it's useful to get ghosts. but if toss is going like, 6 gate ground, or going immortals for a possible bust, i get ghosts immediately. | ||
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ShivaN
United States933 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I usually mech TvP and in the beginning I don't have the gas for ghosts, then midgame I don't need ghosts. I might add ghosts late game. But I'm finding some problems with mech again so I dunno, I always used ghosts when I played bio builds however. I'm curious, I've been wanting to try going mech vs toss, but I just never thought it truly viable. How do you handle early air pressure, like say a quick void harass if you were say at the short air distance bases on metalopolis? Do you just make 8-10 rines at the start since I'm assuming you open 1fact expo? Thanks | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Chunkybuddha
Canada347 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:47 ShivaN wrote: I'm curious, I've been wanting to try going mech vs toss, but I just never thought it truly viable. How do you handle early air pressure, like say a quick void harass if you were say at the short air distance bases on metalopolis? Do you just make 8-10 rines at the start since I'm assuming you open 1fact expo? Thanks little off topic, but mech is very viable, in fact I argue much more favored than bio in TVP. The general build order is 1-1-1. rax, fac, sp asap. Set up tanks, get raven for stalkers, and expand asap. make a massive timing push and continue pushing with hellions and tanks and the odd banshee. sounds like a wacky combo but its devastating. hellions>ht tanks>ground units ravens>stalkers, cloaked units, defense. make sure you are patient and when you are pushing don't push like a regular timing attack. slowly creep your way, never losing your tanks but die everything else. use your hellions to harass and scout. *note* if you choose to not build 2-3 banshees, use this gas for 1-2 ghosts. It's pretty difficult, but if you can manage to fit a ghost in your mech build, you have overwhelming odds in your favor because you can just walk with your tanks without stopping much. . The only reason I can think of is because the route to get ghosts demands a hell of a lot of gas. So usually it's either mech or bio/ghost for resource balance. of course, if you can get to mech safely that is a much better route, so most pros choose mech route and skip ghosts. Plus with mech, mid-game you would rather have a raven than a ghost, so that's where that gas goes mid-game. My 2 cents. | ||
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