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Easy772
374 Posts
Just wanted to get your guys opinions on what the Strengths and Weaknesses of the 3 different races are at this stage of the game. I've heard a lot about Terran versatility, Protoss being able to contain and pressure aggressively and Zerg being able to expand the easiest as well as overwhelm the other races with their 'macrocentric' play. Anyways, hoping to get some good information and high level opinions/discussion from you guys. Thanks in Advance  | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
I feel like Protoss has the hardest time scouting. Terran gets scan right in the early game, and Zerg has overlords/zerglings, then overseers/changelings. Meanwhile, Protoss has only 2 viable options as I see it: 1. Go robo tech, which is extremely predictable, but seems to be the best, with observer, phase prism, immortal, and colossus. Anyway an observer apparently costs 100 gas now, and that's quite a hit for any player on one base economy. 2. Go stargate a la BW PvZ and scout with a phoenix. I'm not sure how much these guys cost, but they're not very durable against anything that can fight back. I'm guessing they cost 100 gas as well, and more minerals than an observer, but they can be useful in combat. But, stargate tech seems less versatile than robo tech. The thing is, either of these options seems much more costly than scan or overlord scouting. But take this with a grain of salt I guess; I play Zerg. | ||
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
On July 25 2010 07:59 Dromar wrote: Well, beyond the basic stuff you mentioned in OP... I feel like Protoss has the hardest time scouting. Terran gets scan right in the early game, and Zerg has overlords/zerglings, then overseers/changelings. Meanwhile, Protoss has only 2 viable options as I see it: 1. Go robo tech, which is extremely predictable, but seems to be the best, with observer, phase prism, immortal, and colossus. Anyway an observer apparently costs 100 gas now, and that's quite a hit for any player on one base economy. 2. Go stargate a la BW PvZ and scout with a phoenix. I'm not sure how much these guys cost, but they're not very durable against anything that can fight back. I'm guessing they cost 100 gas as well, and more minerals than an observer, but they can be useful in combat. But, stargate tech seems less versatile than robo tech. The thing is, either of these options seems much more costly than scan or overlord scouting. But take this with a grain of salt I guess; I play Zerg. you forgot hallucinated phoenixes. yes the research takes forever to complete but it is only 100/100 and very useful in the early-mid game. plus you can mass hallucinate for the big battle to tank alot of damage. | ||
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Easy772
374 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:08 Easy772 wrote: Yeah, I play Protoss quite a bit and I'd say that " very early game" scouting is stronger for T and Z. hallucinated phoenix isn't really as early as Overlord spotting and Scans. Still really good option though. Except hallucinated pheonix and observer are both basically all-you-can-scout deals while scan means 1 less mule which is huge early game and overseers only come when the lair does. Scouting is pretty balanced in sc2 tbh. So the only way you DONT have scouting is going for a fast DT or blink stalker build with delayed warpgates, since stargate and robo both give scouts, and fast warpgate = faster hallucinate. Zerg: Able to devote everything to pumping drones or units at once, so it gives a very "on the edge" reactionary style. You mass drones and then go units at the last second, which gives you an overall better economy. Also able to switch to whatever units you have the resources for very quickly Terran: Most cost efficient units when positioned properly+in large numbers (tanks, bio balls vs zealots) and also effective when harassing or in small numbers. (8 marine medivac drops, hellion harass) Have the best defensive units (tanks, PF's, ghosts) as well. Protoss: Biggest straight up "power" race. When attack moved their units are generally better than a terran or zerg counterpart cost for cost. When micro comes in things change a bit but with storm and colossus they've got a very strong "ball of death". Also the most in your face early game since chrono boost gives them an insane economy boost and warpgates allows him to create units at your front door. | ||
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Easy772
374 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:10 Slayer91 wrote: Except hallucinated pheonix and observer are both basically all-you-can-scout deals while scan means 1 less mule which is huge early game and overseers only come when the lair does. Scouting is pretty balanced in sc2 tbh. So the only way you DONT have scouting is going for a fast DT or blink stalker build with delayed warpgates, since stargate and robo both give scouts, and fast warpgate = faster hallucinate. Yeah, I agree with you that once the observer is out it's a WAY better scout than Scan or Overlord Sac..However, It does take a while longer to get out, from my experience, unless you rush it and cut back on your army size. I'm in no way trying to imply that scouting is imbalanced as a whole, I just feel that 'early game' (first 3-4 mins T and Z have a bit more options than P). You could say that what Protoss lacks in early game scouting it makes up for with the observer or hallucinated phoenix mid and late game. Would you agree with that? Edit: Nice post on the zerg reactionary style.. i agree that they have a very adaptable macro game | ||
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KnightOfNi
United States1508 Posts
MMM strength - mobility (marauder drops are soooooo awesome), great for timing pushes, can just roll over a misplaced army or other smaller force. MMM weakness - anything with massive amounts of AOE, esp storm and fungal growth (collossi just die too fast) Mech strength - HUGE firepower, one time push that will completely ROLL anything and everything in its path Mech weakness - Immobility In both instances, terran is by far the most economical race with the mules, and scans are ezpz as well (although mules are usually preferred, except in viking-tank tvt lol). | ||
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
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The_Pacifist
United States540 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:21 KnightOfNi wrote: In both instances, terran is by far the most economical race with the mules, and scans are ezpz as well (although mules are usually preferred, except in viking-tank tvt lol). I have to disagree. Mules are great for those short term mineral boosts, but the Zerg macro machine is much, much stronger. Zerg can easy hold 1 or more expansions more than the other races throughout an entire game, and if protoss and terran haven't done enough damage through direct attacks or harass, then Zerg can easily run over the over races by the late game. And in addition to that, Zerg can make multiple drones spawn simultaneously and saturate expansions much faster, whereas Terran can only make one SCV from each command center at a time. And, I think, more importantly, you can't put MULES in gas, leading to huge mineral surpluses and gas deficits by the Terran Mech midgame. I honestly don't think Mech really even needs all the MULES it can call down, since the minerals often end up in turrets, hellions, and marines as mineral sinks. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:18 Easy772 wrote: Yeah, I agree with you that once the observer is out it's a WAY better scout than Scan or Overlord Sac..However, It does take a while longer to get out, from my experience, unless you rush it and cut back on your army size. I'm in no way trying to imply that scouting is imbalanced as a whole, I just feel that 'early game' (first 3-4 mins T and Z have a bit more options than P). You could say that what Protoss lacks in early game scouting it makes up for with the observer or hallucinated phoenix mid and late game. Would you agree with that? Edit: Nice post on the zerg reactionary style.. i agree that they have a very adaptable macro game No I wouldn't, assuming you go 1 gate cyber core. You have your initial probe and then your first stalker (except vs Z because it can get sniped) to do a lot of scouting. Normally Z's don't get their lair in time that they don't have to sacrifice an OL to scout and T's can spent at most 1 scan early game. No offense though :DD There is a window for all 3 races where you can't really scout, between the scv/probe/lings dying and your scan/ol/overseer/obs comes out that is when a lot of nasty stuff happens. I like that design though, makes things more interesting since you have to look for more subtle hints, like marine count or unit composition. (1 stalker no sentries and 2 zealots? maybe DT or void rays) By the way guys, a mule accounts for 3 scvs. So building your OC which takes like a static 2-3 SCV's time in building and the mineral cost of 3 scvs to build, obviously the ability to mine saturated patches is big, but say you're in a macro game where you expand before you fully saturate your mineral patches up to 3-4 bases, we have terran as really gaining no advantage at all from the OC. For terran macro, always add a static 3 scvs to their worker count to compare to other races. 1 Chrono boost gives you about 3 probes in the time it takes to build 2, so 1 chrono boost = 1 more probe. P gets about 4 probes if he uses all his chrono boost on nexus by the time T gets an OC up, so if both races are expanding quickly T gets further and further behind economically. Z drone count is all dependent on style and pressure put on both the opponent. Potentially its the highest though, which is why things like 14CC and 14 nexus aren't that popular any more. Conclusion: Terrans wanting to win a macro game should a: Expand FASTER (extra CC accounting for weaker macro) b: Harass the other players economy (killing his workers because you have less) c: Stay on an equal base count. (take advantage of the mule overmining mineral patches) | ||
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
Terran. Good defence, Good scouting, Very cost effecient Protoss- tough units, Easy to play,Good special abilitys | ||
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Easy772
374 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:36 Slayer91 wrote: No I wouldn't, assuming you go 1 gate cyber core. You have your initial probe and then your first stalker (except vs Z because it can get sniped) to do a lot of scouting. Normally Z's don't get their lair in time that they don't have to sacrifice an OL to scout and T's can spent at most 1 scan early game. No offense though :DD There is a window for all 3 races where you can't really scout, between the scv/probe/lings dying and your scan/ol/overseer/obs comes out that is when a lot of nasty stuff happens. I like that design though, makes things more interesting since you have to look for more subtle hints, like marine count or unit composition. (1 stalker no sentries and 2 zealots? maybe DT or void rays) Yeah, good point. I guess I should just speak for myself as it seems i usually dont get my robo til after my 3rd gate.. Probably more just my playstyle I guess. Edit: punctuation and typo | ||
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
Strengths -Mobile, cheap, low tier units allow for big armies quicky. -Fast production rate -Cheaper expansions -Cheap and accessible detection(overseer) -Speedlings can quickly harass an open expo, or can catch your opponent off guard (unsieged tanks) -Portable defensive units -Creep speeds up units and can block opponent's expansion attempt or at least delay it Weaknesses -Finding the time to drone and produce assault and defence units can sometimes be tricky. -Units are generally weak in low numbers -A different building for nearly every unit contributes heavily to Zerg's inflexibility. -Weak against mech in general. Other races have ranged units that are hard counters or just hard to reach (stalker, immortal, colossi ball or siege tanks, thor and hellion) -Usually requires highest APM of the three races and is usually said to be the hardest to play -Overlords can be easily picked off by vikings and phoenixes -Sometimes the only way to scout is to suicide an Overlord -Proxy strategies, or hiding tech is difficult. Protoss Strengths -Strong low tier gateway units -has units that are hard counter for everything but air -Warp gates allow for gateway units to be warped in virtually anywhere on the map. -has the only stationary defensive structure that can attack air, ground as is a detector all at the same time. -Has strong units in general -Has permanently cloaked DTs -Observer is amazing if the opponent doesn't see it. -Chronoboost allows for the ability to heavily prioritize unit production and upgrades -Army is quite mobile -FORCE FIELDS decimate any ground army Weaknesses -Units are expensive -Although it has units that are hard counters to everything they are terrible if they aren't coupled with units to counter the units they are not good against, basically meaning that the hard counters have hard counters of their own (Immortals are destroyed by zerglings, unless they have zealots in the front and colossi in the back) -Teching can be trickier then zerg early in the game as buildings and upgrades are very expensive and must pay for themselves by heavily contributing to the overall game -Observer is completely useless if they have decent detection or stationary air defences as they are very weak and will die quickly Terran Strengths -Easiest race to play -Teching is extremely straightforward, no tech decisions need to be made, you WILL get a Barracks, you WILL get a factory, you WILL get a starport, tier 3 is really the only time you have to make decisions -Units are not too expensive and not too cheap, allowing for a nicely sized army -Siege tanks -Possible strongest tier 1 composition -Best race to turtle with. -Flying buildings allow for scouting, lifting buildings when attacked by ground only units. -Most of all, it is familiar, Terran is pretty much you get in other RTS games, and plus they are HUMAN so stuff they have is understandable Weaknesses -Immobile army is punished when there are undefended expansions as your army will take a long time to get there. And for this reason makes expanding difficult. -Siege tanks must not be attacked while unsieged, or else they are pretty useless. -Usually has the worst map control as it's siege tanks are vulnerable when unsieging and moving to another area to capture a position Those are all I could think of, feel free to add to that list. | ||
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:42 hadoken5 wrote: Terran Strengths -Easiest race to play -Teching is extremely straightforward, no tech decisions need to be made, you WILL get a Barracks, you WILL get a factory, you WILL get a starport, tier 3 is really the only time you have to make decisions -Units are not too expensive and not too cheap, allowing for a nicely sized army -Siege tanks -Possible strongest tier 1 composition -Best race to turtle with. -Flying buildings allow for scouting, lifting buildings when attacked by ground only units. -Most of all, it is familiar, Terran is pretty much you get in other RTS games, and plus they are HUMAN so stuff they have is understandable Weaknesses -Immobile army is punished when there are undefended expansions as your army will take a long time to get there. And for this reason makes expanding difficult. -Siege tanks must not be attacked while unsieged, or else they are pretty useless. -Usually has the worst map control as it's siege tanks are vulnerable when unsieging and moving to another area to capture a position Your not bias. Terran defieantly isnt the easiest to play :/. That goes to protoss my friend. Also your baseing most of your strengths and weakness on if they are going mech. So im guessing zerg player? Zerg -A different building for nearly every unit contributes heavily to Zerg's inflexibility. No zergs defiantly have alot of flexibility since they only need one building and can just use there hatcherys to make units | ||
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MrXmasTree
United States6 Posts
everything controled by pylons no pylons=nothing happens | ||
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:45 Tabbris wrote: Your not bias. Terran defieantly isnt the easiest to play :/. That goes to protoss my friend. Also your baseing most of your strengths and weakness on if they are going mech. So im guessing zerg player? No I play random, and I say Terran because: A) Terran is the most played race in the Beta, this number will increase when the game comes out because every person I asked about Starcraft outside of the SC community (about 15), they have all said that they will be playing Terran. Pretty much proves that in THEIR opinion, the new player, the one this mostly revolves around, have said that Terran is the easiest because it is the most familiar, and they don't even consider playing the other races, or bother to learn them. B) It is the most linear race. You WILL build a barracks, you need that to build a Factory. You WILL build a factory (usually) you will need that for a starport. So what I pretty much mean is that you will pretty much instantly (and inevitably) have every unit available for a tier by simply building two buildings (all ground tier 2 units come from a factory, all air tier 2 units come from a starport). It is the most diverse race, and you can quickly respond to whatever your opponent is making as you already have every unit available. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
Some other thoughts: -Zerg has the biggest risk/reward economy; it's a little more complicated but its potential is huge. -Zerg has no mega ability or unit; Terran has nuke and Protoss have mother ship Might add some more later. Sorry for random thoughts. :p | ||
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Creation85
51 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:45 Tabbris wrote: Your not bias. Terran defieantly isnt the easiest to play :/. That goes to protoss my friend. Also your baseing most of your strengths and weakness on if they are going mech. So im guessing zerg player? No zergs defiantly have alot of flexibility since they only need one building and can just use there hatcherys to make units Not sure why people still think protoss is the easiest race to play- just an old stereotype from BW days I guess? The race has completely changed and is much more difficult, imo, in sc2. | ||
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:59 hadoken5 wrote: No I play random, and I say Terran because: A) Terran is the most played race in the Beta, this number will increase when the game comes out because every person I asked about Starcraft outside of the SC community (about 15), they have all said that they will be playing Terran. Pretty much proves that in THEIR opinion, the new player, the one this mostly revolves around, have said that Terran is the easiest because it is the most familiar, and they don't even consider playing the other races, or bother to learn them. B) It is the most linear race. You WILL build a barracks, you need that to build a Factory. You WILL build a factory (usually) you will need that for a starport. So what I pretty much mean is that you will pretty much instantly (and inevitably) have every unit available for a tier by simply building two buildings (all ground tier 2 units come from a factory, all air tier 2 units come from a starport). It is the most diverse race, and you can quickly respond to whatever your opponent is making as you already have every unit available. 1.First i like to know where you got those stats. With the terran being the most played race 2. I got many people saying they play protoss cause its easy? Who wins the argument? 3.Point B. Yes i agree its easy to tech as terran. And terran do seem to only have to build a few of one unit to completly counter another. So yes i agree to this point. I blame the addition of the reactor Not sure why people still think protoss is the easiest race to play- just an old stereotype from BW days I guess? The race has completely changed and is much more difficult, imo, in sc2. Im mainly a protoss/zerg player and no protoss is defiantly not hard. They have by far the easiest time macroing. And microing isnt to difficult either compared to the other races | ||
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Creation85
51 Posts
On July 25 2010 09:08 Tabbris wrote: 1.First i like to know where you got those stats. With the terran being the most played race 2. I got many people saying they play protoss cause its easy? Who wins the argument? 3.Point B. Yes i agree its easy to tech as terran. And terran do seem to only have to build a few of one unit to completly counter another. So yes i agree to this point. I blame the addition of the reactor Not sure why people still think protoss is the easiest race to play- just an old stereotype from BW days I guess? The race has completely changed and is much more difficult, imo, in sc2.[/QUOTE] Im mainly a protoss/zerg player and no protoss is defiantly not hard. They have by far the easiest time macroing. And microing isnt to difficult either compared to the other races [/QUOTE] Okay, didn't know you were basing this off your personal opinion. carry on i guess | ||
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On July 25 2010 09:14 Creation85 wrote: Im mainly a protoss/zerg player and no protoss is defiantly not hard. They have by far the easiest time macroing. And microing isnt to difficult either compared to the other races Okay, didn't know you were basing this off your personal opinion. carry on i guess Its been said by multple people that its the easiest. Example-Idra, Artosis. I gave them as examples b/c u seem to agree on the mech is op debate | ||
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Easy772
374 Posts
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Calamity
Canada161 Posts
On July 25 2010 09:02 Jerubaal wrote: It kind of bothers me that the Protoss Air to Air capabilities are so weak. Neither the Phoenix nor the Void Ray can stand up to Vikings. Phoenicoi will fare decently against Mutalisks but aren't as cost effective and can't contribute to the main army as well. Some other thoughts: -Zerg has the biggest risk/reward economy; it's a little more complicated but its potential is huge. -Zerg has no mega ability or unit; Terran has nuke and Protoss have mother ship Might add some more later. Sorry for random thoughts. :p Phoenixes can beat viking 1v1 or in equal masses. If they are outnumbered, they can easily retreat. Their speed is the fastest of all air units. Their graviton beam is priceless when it comes to harassing. When on the battle field, Phoenixes can lift up sieged tanks for zealots to get under and easily kill them. They can chase down medivacs and kill Queens. As for mega units, Zerg is seen as the easily mass army race. It's mega weapons come in the form of being able to build several ultralisks or Brood Lords. Sure Terrans can build BCs, and Protoss can build a Mothership, but how scary is it that you're laughing at the 20 corrupter only army while you have like 10 siege tanks and 20 marauders one moment, and seeing 10 brood lords chasing you're ass in 30 seconds. Strengths -Mobile, cheap, low tier units allow for big armies quicky. -Fast production rate -Cheaper expansions -Cheap and accessible detection(overseer) -Speedlings can quickly harass an open expo, or can catch your opponent off guard (unsieged tanks) -Portable defensive units -Creep speeds up units and can block opponent's expansion attempt or at least delay it Weaknesses -Finding the time to drone and produce assault and defence units can sometimes be tricky. -Units are generally weak in low numbers -A different building for nearly every unit contributes heavily to Zerg's inflexibility. -Weak against mech in general. Other races have ranged units that are hard counters or just hard to reach (stalker, immortal, colossi ball or siege tanks, thor and hellion) -Usually requires highest APM of the three races and is usually said to be the hardest to play -Overlords can be easily picked off by vikings and phoenixes -Sometimes the only way to scout is to suicide an Overlord -Proxy strategies, or hiding tech is difficult. Another strength that zerg's has is the ability to reinforce its army quickly and easily. If you have a 200/200 army and save some resources, you can reproduce all units lost faster than a Terran or Protoss if you've been injecting larva well. Zerg's also have great map control with cheap zerglings at watchtowers and mutas for harass. As for your weaknesses, some I disagree with. Different tech buildings for zerg's make it so different units can be made in mass when you're opponent least expects it. You can build roach hydra armies early, and then mass zerglings and ultralisks quickly after. A terran can't switch from bio to mech that quickly nor can a Protoss switch from mass voids to mass colosi easily. I want to see some facts and evidence to show that Zergs usually require the highest APM to play. Overlords can get picked off easily but they provide valuable creep and the ability to drop units into someone's base. I don't see my supply depots giving my army fast moving speed. Not to mention overlords and run away in some case where as pylons and depots don't move....sadly  Sacing an overlord is just a lost of 100 minerals which is not a lot since gas is the more valuable resource to zergs from what I hear, might be wrong. Overseers and changelings are great scouts too. I doubt i'll notice a stray marine or zealot moving through my base when I'm microing and macroing. As for you're | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
Powerful early game pressure Strong Timing Pushes Powerful Spells Powerful Late game unit Slow to expand Lots of Timing pushes against Lack of Versatility in non gateway paths Best when two paths are taken. templar + robo, Robo + Stargate, stargate + templar Weakness to EMP (all units) Reliance on support units and specialty upgrades. Terran: Can sacrifice raw power for mobility or vice versa. Strong harrassment capabilities Easy detection Ability to wall easily. Air superiority Vulnerable to harrassment. Difficult to use both tech trees. Relatively weak casters. Powerful mid game units. Zerg Easy to Expand Strong economy Weak to early harrassment Difficult to defend against air. Reliant on creep spreading. Ability have surges of units. Have to manage Larva carefully. Powerful late game units. Able to destroy buildings easily. Can interfere with enemy easily. Able to shift tech patterns easily. Weak units overall. Good scouting opportunities Can only scout in windows. Unforgiving of mistakes. Lack of an easily massable 1 food unit results in either specialized smaller armies or large vulnerable ones. This is all in my opinion. I'm a zerg player. and better able to see their weaknesses and strengths which is why more is listed there. | ||
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mesohawny
Canada193 Posts
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Easy772
374 Posts
On July 25 2010 09:46 mesohawny wrote: lol T is so easy mode right now its laughable... they don't have to make any tough decisions when it comes to their army comp, they have one army, and it destroys almost everything when played properly. I don't know about all that.. I think IF there are any imbalances they're slight, wouldn't call any race "Easy Mode" | ||
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