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Before everybody comes here and say Ultralisk is perfectly balance (rant). Let me just say that for some parts yes, it is very situational and requires great tactics such as flanking. However, in most games, they are simply unusable, given that late games, the great majority of the units in both you and your opponent's army, consist of ranged attackers. For that reason, Ultralisks tend to be die before reaching the opponent. Of course we all know it is very rewarding when a flank does work, but that is rare nonetheless. Simply put, it is usually not worth the risk to get em out.
So I propose this idea: give Ultralisks the charge ability (similar to Zealot). Now I know this idea is drastic, but just think about it.
Lets talk about the Zealot first. The zealot is all-around powerful, and is extremely good early game. Early-Mid game however, the Protoss player usually transitions to a lot more Stalker, because they realize a good player can easily kill Zealots with simple with Marines/Marauders/Roach/Hydra/etc. This is why when Protoss player opt to play Zealots mid-game, you'll be hard pressed to see him/her not have Charge researched. It truly is necessary for combat at the later points in the game.
Likewise, the Ultralisks can be easily withered away by micro from a ranged attacker. In fact, the opponent doesn't even need to micro. In late games, they mean MMM balls, pure Hydras, and mass Stalker Sentry combos can probably can probably take down Ultras well before it even touches anything.
I realize the community hates changes, especially regarding abilities, but as of now, Ultras will hardly ever fare well against any late game techs.
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That would certainly make the Ultralisk no longer underpowered, thats for sure.
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I think the ultralisk should carry a large shrubbery in front of him so that he can sneak up on enemy siege lines.
C'mon those blades are perfect.
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I forgot to mention the animation would look super awesome, in theory. I mean, comon', an Ultralisk charging right at ya? Can't look more magnificent than that.
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While I agree that the Ultra is the most difficult high-end unit to control, it does tremendous damage once it gets there. They seem to be balancing it around it being melee rather than having a constant damage output and letting the range and movement constraints balance it's large damage output.
This change would negate all of those constraints.
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Even for Zealots it cost 200/200, what do u suggest it to cost for Ultras? 300/300+? Would be interesting to see how it would turn out, but i guess it would be op.
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Signed, I'm tired of losing half my ultras before they get a hit off. I honestly don't think it would be an issue if they were still 600hp.
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How about this: The ultra can be upgraded to pour creep out of oozing sores all over its body. This makes it partially a support unit, encourages its use with hydras instead of zerglings, and is generally dope.
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On July 16 2010 03:51 HardcoreBilly wrote:
Likewise, the Ultralisks can be easily withered away by micro from a ranged attacker. In fact, the opponent doesn't even need to micro. In late games, they mean MMM balls, pure Hydras, and mass Stalker Sentry combos can probably can probably take down Ultras well before it even touches anything.
Use 2-3 infestors with your ultralisks, they will become much stronger you'll see.
Why are you talking about sentries? Ultralisks break force fields.
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Its to late they wont change anything at this point....Besides Ultras as are now can rape both marauder and stalker armies,if positioned properly...
See the Ultralisk are a positional unit for the most part, they just dont do well when you run them into chokes or a killing ground or 30 sieged tanks with 40 marauders ,but using them on creep or when the opponent is out of position is devastating,quickly take out bases,flank opponents from both sides in the middle of the map---->massive cleeve damage(heck even a turtleling terran will have exposed and undefended bases if he wants to expand so you can always hit those,otherwise just take the whole map)I think anti0armor is what thay needed,they are no longer tanks but if you can position right the rape everything...
I think as in sc1 the unit will receive some boost come Hots
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The same idea has been posted so so many times. Ultras don't need to be epic. Why not leave them as an endgame situational unit?
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Since when is MMM a threat to zerg anyway? i'd worry more about mech. Bio vs Zerg is definitely a Zerg favored match, and you don't even need ultra's to deal with it.
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I honestly hate all this "its fine. super situational" comments.
If you guys watch videos of Idra/Sen/DiMaga etc., they absolutely never go Ultras. It's not merely a coincidence. Its that Ultras are almost in all situations terrible, unless you caught your opponent in a huge blunder, but that almost never happens with good players.
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On July 16 2010 04:14 Daedie wrote:
Since when is MMM a threat to zerg anyway? i'd worry more about mech. Bio vs Zerg is definitely a Zerg favored match, and you don't even need ultra's to deal with it.
You ever used MMM + Tank?
I saw morrow use marine+tank tvz vs someone in zotac or something but it seems flimsy to baneling bombs.
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On July 16 2010 03:55 Jerubaal wrote:
I think the ultralisk should carry a large shrubbery in front of him so that he can sneak up on enemy siege lines.
C'mon those blades are perfect.
+1
imagine a line of ultas with LOS blocking shrubbery. would be hilarious. fits in great with ultra burrow =P
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Try dropping them. No flank needed.
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I don't have these problems when using ultralisks.
In fact I make sure ultralisks are sent in 1st than I send the swarm of lings and ultralisk just do fine when I use a fungal.
the only ACTUAL thing I would change from ultras would be the ability to step OVER zerglins/marines (.... small units in general) and besides that it's all good. I kinda like ultras now 
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heh I think zvp ultra's are good zvt against a bio army ultra's get slaughtered. but I dont' know how they can boost the ultra without making them too strong in zvp
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On July 16 2010 04:21 NATO wrote:
Try dropping them. No flank needed.
Like I said, late game, its almost all ranged attackers. Against good players, they will target fire each Overlords as soon as it's within sight. So basically, it's suicidal. Overlords don't exactly have a high HP, and the drops are clunky to say the least.
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why dont we all make carriers and motherships 'usable' while we're at it
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you have no idea, sir.
sorry to say so, but imo your suggestion is crap.
watch some good z reps and try to learn how to use them properly
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they just need to be smaller. such a silly size.
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On July 16 2010 04:16 HardcoreBilly wrote:
I honestly hate all this "its fine. super situational" comments.
If you guys watch videos of Idra/Sen/DiMaga etc., they absolutely never go Ultras. It's not merely a coincidence. Its that Ultras are almost in all situations terrible, unless you caught your opponent in a huge blunder, but that almost never happens with good players.
Tell me one unit in the zergs arsenal thats not situational,infact there was a thread not long ago here on TL about how zergs missing a vital untis they can always lean on or control the match with,like the protoss templar or the terrans tanks witch are almost always good.Answer there is none.....
AS a zerg a usually count on my opponent screwing up somewhere,leaving something undefended or seeing some kinda flow in his play and exploit.Otherwise zerg needs to scout and respond accordingly to the enemy,cause they cant dictate the match like evar.....Its the same with all units,ultra included...
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If you guys watch videos of Idra/Sen/DiMaga etc., they absolutely never go Ultras. It's not merely a coincidence. Its that Ultras are almost in all situations terrible, unless you caught your opponent in a huge blunder, but that almost never happens with good players.
Tell me one unit in the zergs arsenal thats not situational,infact there was a thread not long ago here on TL about how zergs missing a vital untis they can always lean on or control the match with,like the protoss templar or the terrans tanks witch are almost always good.Answer there is none.....
AS a zerg a usually count on my opponent screwing up somewhere,leaving something undefended or seeing some kinda flow in his play and exploit.Otherwise zerg needs to scout and respond accordingly to the enemy,cause they cant dictate the match like evar.....Its the same with all units,ultra included...
they just need to be smaller. such a silly size
No i disagree,i dont want big zerglings
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On July 16 2010 04:30 DocSnyder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 04:16 HardcoreBilly wrote:
I honestly hate all this "its fine. super situational" comments.
If you guys watch videos of Idra/Sen/DiMaga etc., they absolutely never go Ultras. It's not merely a coincidence. Its that Ultras are almost in all situations terrible, unless you caught your opponent in a huge blunder, but that almost never happens with good players. Tell me one unit in the zergs arsenal thats not situational,infact there was a thread not long ago here on TL about how zergs missing a vital untis they can always lean on or control the match with,like the protoss templar or the terrans tanks witch are almost always good.Answer there is none..... AS a zerg a usually count on my opponent screwing up somewhere,leaving something undefended or seeing some kinda flow in his play and exploit.Otherwise zerg needs to scout and respond accordingly to the enemy,cause they cant dictate the match like evar.....Its the same with all units,ultra included...
reacting and getting ultras isnt really reasonable due to the time it takes to get them up and running. Instead of devoting minerals and time to teching to ultras id rather upgrade my current army and keep pumping those units. Hoping to get enough ultras out before an enemy pushes is fail, considering they already have it since you scouted it.
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On July 16 2010 04:33 starcat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 04:30 DocSnyder wrote:On July 16 2010 04:16 HardcoreBilly wrote:
I honestly hate all this "its fine. super situational" comments.
If you guys watch videos of Idra/Sen/DiMaga etc., they absolutely never go Ultras. It's not merely a coincidence. Its that Ultras are almost in all situations terrible, unless you caught your opponent in a huge blunder, but that almost never happens with good players. Tell me one unit in the zergs arsenal thats not situational,infact there was a thread not long ago here on TL about how zergs missing a vital untis they can always lean on or control the match with,like the protoss templar or the terrans tanks witch are almost always good.Answer there is none..... AS a zerg a usually count on my opponent screwing up somewhere,leaving something undefended or seeing some kinda flow in his play and exploit.Otherwise zerg needs to scout and respond accordingly to the enemy,cause they cant dictate the match like evar.....Its the same with all units,ultra included... reacting and getting ultras isnt really reasonable due to the time it takes to get them up and running. Instead of devoting minerals and time to teching to ultras id rather upgrade my current army and keep pumping those units. Hoping to get enough ultras out before an enemy pushes is fail.
Sure but in some cases,say terran mech ,ultras handle that so much better that anything else,no matter the upgrades,numbers or composition....
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The Ultralisk is great in some situations and in others he is not really worth the investment.
Put you can push the opponent into situations where the Ultra is great and thats the nice thing about Zerg.
I find him useful in every matchup when the game enters the later stages and he saved my ass quite some time as an AoE-Tanker.
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Idra sen and dimaga only use broodlords because they got used to using that particular tech path. It's not because it's scientifically better in every situation, that's just what they've practiced the most.
It's a mistake to make judgments on balance from the current beta "pros". They're decent now, but their current level will be laughable even to them in about a year's time.
Play the game yourselves and find ways to force the units to work.
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While on the topic of beating a dead horse...
The ultralisk is actually quite fine as-is, I believe. At most it could use the ability to attack over a single row of lings without significant micro, but even that might be too much. Ultras are extremely powerful at the moment and giving them a charge is simply too drastic of a change at this point in time.
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Uh i don't think ultras need much honestly. They are pretty awesome right now. I would say that maybe a size reduction like they did with the thor or pathing that let them move units out of the way would be cool, but just try them out now.
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On July 16 2010 04:36 DocSnyder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 04:33 starcat wrote:On July 16 2010 04:30 DocSnyder wrote:On July 16 2010 04:16 HardcoreBilly wrote:
I honestly hate all this "its fine. super situational" comments.
If you guys watch videos of Idra/Sen/DiMaga etc., they absolutely never go Ultras. It's not merely a coincidence. Its that Ultras are almost in all situations terrible, unless you caught your opponent in a huge blunder, but that almost never happens with good players. Tell me one unit in the zergs arsenal thats not situational,infact there was a thread not long ago here on TL about how zergs missing a vital untis they can always lean on or control the match with,like the protoss templar or the terrans tanks witch are almost always good.Answer there is none..... AS a zerg a usually count on my opponent screwing up somewhere,leaving something undefended or seeing some kinda flow in his play and exploit.Otherwise zerg needs to scout and respond accordingly to the enemy,cause they cant dictate the match like evar.....Its the same with all units,ultra included... reacting and getting ultras isnt really reasonable due to the time it takes to get them up and running. Instead of devoting minerals and time to teching to ultras id rather upgrade my current army and keep pumping those units. Hoping to get enough ultras out before an enemy pushes is fail. Sure but in some cases,say terran mech ,ultras handle that so much better that anything else,no matter the upgrades,numbers or composition....
I agree. Ultras are great against mech. The biggest problem is that once you see mech, you work towards ultras, but you are extremely vulnerable until you get them out. infestor pit+hive+ultra den is very gas heavy, and will definitely hurt your ability to field a decent army in the mid-game. Sure i can pump lings in the meantime, and a few hydras/roaches... but very few.
If they push your expos or something, what can you do? If they scan, see ur lack of units or hive/ultra den going up, they will just hit you right then (at least they should). Ultras are really expensive. When am i going to save up all those minerals? Again, holding unit production to save for ultras is extremely risky. What if the terran isnt turtling but is harassing? sitting outside your base?
Not only are ultras situational, the trick is finding the time to get them.
I think ultras are fine the way they are except they could be a bit smaller.
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zerg player here, against a toss army ultralisk is very very strong, no question
against a terran army not so much. This is mostly because of siege tanks, thors, and marauders
I think the solution to having ultralisk feel more useful is to give it a semi-immortal ability (cap at 25 or 30 instead of 10 though) this way you don't buff it against the toss army, exception being immortal I guess... but you really only use ultra to break a colossus army so it might still be ok...
the main issue though is ultras get melted far too easy vs terran mech and that's the main weakness of it. (notice almost the entire zerg army is weak to terran mech lol). this is the type of situation I feel the ultralisk is meant to handle; breaking heavy fortifications etc.
other than that I think carriers need a lot more help than ultralisks
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On July 16 2010 04:26 HardcoreBilly wrote:Like I said, late game, its almost all ranged attackers. Against good players, they will target fire each Overlords as soon as it's within sight. So basically, it's suicidal. Overlords don't exactly have a high HP, and the drops are clunky to say the least.
Targetfire with which unit (TvZ)? Thors don't do a lot damage against Overlords und usually there are not too many Marines and it's also doubtful that the Terran has Vikings if the Zerg doesn't play air (if Terran played Vikings Zerg would propably not have teched to Ultras anyway).
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Ultras are fine. They only need a patching buff. ( i feel i say that twenty time a day.. )
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After all the buffs I think Ultras are doing very well now as units. Ultras are the perfect tech switch unit from mutas, as vikings/marines with light tanks do poorly against them. Also Ultras handle mech very well if you catch the tanks in transit.
Another great use of Ultras is to close out a game that you have a nice resource lead in. In those scenarios you usually aren't so concerned about cost effectiveness, you just want to keep pouring on the pressure while maintaining or increasing your econ advantage.
They are also a great way to concentrate some firepower quickly to a specific location. If the terran has most of his forces at location A, and you attack a more lightly defended location B with ALL your forces (speedling/ultra primarily), the terran is usually forced to move his large army to deal with it. By that time you can either have fled, or attempted to engage the terran as he moves into position.If you flee, you can probably restore some of your Ultras by healing with a queen.
Ultras also work well for the zerg player that does a good job of spreading creep as they are incredibly mobile in those situations.
Finally Ultra are an awesome way to spend your money fast if you've been having a hard time with your macro and have accumulated some cash. A lot of times a terran just can't handle the sudden appearance of even 5 ultra (in addition to your other forces) when he's been fighting muta/ling the rest of the game.
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Ultras are pretty sweet now. IMO they just need to lower the price. they cost too much to add a nice ling army behind it like you would in scbw.
It would be nice to be able to afford them and some lings or roaches. So your first 2 or 3 ultra army doesnt get smashed and you just have to keep replenishing a tiny army.. It is flawed. Either you have enough money but too many drones supply making a tiny ultra army... or you dont have enough money making a tiny ultra army with weak support.
In the end you will have produced like 10 ultras which is great... but only a few at a time (for those reasons ^) that get slaughtered. Take forever to build too.
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On July 16 2010 04:56 sacrificetheory wrote:
Ultras are pretty sweet now. IMO they just need to lower the price. they cost too much to add a nice ling army behind it like you would in scbw.
It would be nice to be able to afford them and some lings or roaches. So your first 2 or 3 ultra army doesnt get smashed and you just have to keep replenishing a tiny army.. It is flawed. Either you have enough money but too many drones supply making a tiny ultra army... or you dont have enough money making a tiny ultra army with weak support.
In the end you will have produced like 10 ultras which is great... but only a few at a time (for those reasons ^) that get slaughtered. Take forever to build too.
I agree with this for sure, they should make the higher tier units more available; simply teching all the way to ultra takes longer than most games last and imo you should at least have a reasonable chance to get to use all of your available tech
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definitely make them smaller. They are simply too big and the size doesn't make them look tough. It makes them look clumsy and goofy. It certainly makes them act that way too. Just reduce the size so its still big, but not insanely huge, and i think we will be on to something.
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Im a zerg player who uses ultras occasionally. In fact i get them a lot more than broodlords. I dont think charge will fix the problem and at times it can even be overpowered. What I find the problem is that ultras get stuck in the most silly positions. Even in very large areas where you swear a ultra can definitely squeeze through to hit your enemy would somehow be too narrow for your ultra to get in.
I hear suggestions that you should send your ultras in first and crap like that. But man, ppl dont understand the vast amount of situations if you have up to 4 ultras where an ultra can get stuck. I can get 2 ultras to attack the enemy army fine but the other 2 are usually lost in the shuffle. Even in the most open areas, ultras are so big that the first 2 ultras will attack your enemy, but the other 2 ultras will get stuck within your raoches/hydras/zerglings while trying to reposition itself around the other ultras to attack the army.
I think a viable solution is to have a charge type attack that doesnt increase the ultra's speed but allows it to push any allied units to the side as it goes towards it's enemy target. The amount of times where i've had even 1 pixel of a particular roach blocking the ultra's path is so frustrating.
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i think the main reason why ultralisks were powerful in bw was because of their speed with the upgrade. in sc2 even with the speed upgrade being default, they are nowhere near as fast as the were back then, just like the adrenal upgrade for lings. if they could just give them a speed boost, or in your case, a charge ability, i think this would help drastically
edit: oh and maybe reduce their ridiculous size? i can't believe they haven't already, seeing how they reduced the size of thors
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Ultralisks are perfectly fine. Their incredibly long tech-to and build time, however, is not.
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Yeah i really miss the old ultra being so fast and downright scary.
This one first time you see it you go " Oh Sh*t thats big!... Wtf its dead already?"
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Ultras are already incredibly strong...
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Ultralisk needs some time to stew now, I have seen them used to GREAT effect lately.
If anything, they should get a size reduction similar to the thor, or better pathing.
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What if the Ultralisk Queen's could inject larva into Ultralisks in addition to Hatcheries which would keep larva inside of it (once they hatched). You then can choose to have 10 zerglings, 5 roaches, 5 hydralisks or 5 banelings burst from the ultralisk for their respective prices. If you do it, the Ultralisk dies but the units that come out have fed off it and if the Ultralisk had more than 10 kills, the units inside would have boosted stats. Additionally, if the Ultralisk dies off creep then the slime and stuff that was incubating the eggs will fall onto the ground and make a kind of super creep which lasts 4 minutes. This creep attaches to enemy units and dramatically slows their speed if enemy units walk over it. This would also burn their insides, which slowly drains their health.
If Fungal Growth is casted super-creeped enemies then the effective stacks in a very powerful fashion. The two chemicals combine to create a Fungus Spore that comes out of the fumes. It is pretty much creep, but for air units as it is a floating cloud of creep. This can slowly move and dissipates after 5 minutes.
Broodlords in the Fungus Spore cloud generate up to 8 broodlings instead of up to 2 and spawn them faster.
Mutalisks can mutate into BroodQueens if under the effect of the Fungus Spore cloud which would be like the Swarm Guardian but bigger and slower. Greater Spire would be neccesary and it would be a long mutation as well a very costly.
Corruptors that are under the effect of the Fungus Spore cloud can attach to allied air units. When attached to BroodQueens, the BroodQueen's attack spawns supercreep for 30 seconds wherever it shoots. When attached to Broodlords, there is a 1/8 chance that instead of spawning an ultralisk instead of broodling.
Done, once this is implemented (as it obviously would) the game will be 100% balanced and fun.
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Ultras have been buffed enough times that they're good now. They're getting used in both TvZ and PvZ. There's the slight issue that their headbutt ability isn't actually a bonus against buildings, but otherwise they're already pretty awesome. Not sure it needs to be improved at this point.
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I've seen Ultras used in great effect against protoss, and broodlords against terran. Zerg has a Tier 3 unit to use against each race, so the ultra is fine.
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On July 16 2010 05:23 MangoTango wrote:
Ultras have been buffed enough times that they're good now. They're getting used in both TvZ and PvZ. There's the slight issue that their headbutt ability isn't actually a bonus against buildings, but otherwise they're already pretty awesome. Not sure it needs to be improved at this point.
That is to avoid cleaving on buildings.
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If they just made it smaller I would be happy with it. If they are going to have it to be as big as it is they should make it as epic as its size. Right now it isn't. Having it smaller would make it a little easier to maneuver it through a battle and easier to get to you opponent.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 16 2010 05:20 Kakisho wrote:
What if the Ultralisk Queen's could inject larva into Ultralisks in addition to Hatcheries which would keep larva inside of it (once they hatched). You then can choose to have 10 zerglings, 5 roaches, 5 hydralisks or 5 banelings burst from the ultralisk for their respective prices. If you do it, the Ultralisk dies but the units that come out have fed off it and if the Ultralisk had more than 10 kills, the units inside would have boosted stats. Additionally, if the Ultralisk dies off creep then the slime and stuff that was incubating the eggs will fall onto the ground and make a kind of super creep which lasts 4 minutes. This creep attaches to enemy units and dramatically slows their speed if enemy units walk over it. This would also burn their insides, which slowly drains their health.
If Fungal Growth is casted super-creeped enemies then the effective stacks in a very powerful fashion. The two chemicals combine to create a Fungus Spore that comes out of the fumes. It is pretty much creep, but for air units as it is a floating cloud of creep. This can slowly move and dissipates after 5 minutes.
Broodlords in the Fungus Spore cloud generate up to 8 broodlings instead of up to 2 and spawn them faster.
Mutalisks can mutate into BroodQueens if under the effect of the Fungus Spore cloud which would be like the Swarm Guardian but bigger and slower. Greater Spire would be neccesary and it would be a long mutation as well a very costly.
Corruptors that are under the effect of the Fungus Spore cloud can attach to allied air units. When attached to BroodQueens, the BroodQueen's attack spawns supercreep for 30 seconds wherever it shoots. When attached to Broodlords, there is a 1/8 chance that instead of spawning an ultralisk instead of broodling.
Done, once this is implemented (as it obviously would) the game will be 100% balanced and fun.
This was the most funny thing I've read all day.
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Agreed with an earlier post. The fact that posts like this still exist is ridiculous. Learn to play the current unit instead of whining. Try using a mothership or a carrier, then know a truly awful unit.
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One of the biggest advantages of the ultralisk is damage mitigation. With 500HP, 6 armor and a large size (enough to absorb tank shots without much splash), a few can allow your army to close on, say, terran mech without turning into dust.
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So the OP says that Ultras are underpowered because they are situational and require flanking. Let's see, can anyone name me one single unit that is not situational? And yes, a mass melee army requires flanking, that is inherent to all melee armies, so I don't see why this is a problem either. Melee units make up for their lack of range by having much better stats than other units, and the ultralisk is certainly no exception to this rule.
In fact, there is no reliable evidence for the Ultralik being too weak, so this thread is completely unnecessary. Just let the game run its course and see how the Ultralisk develops. After all, Broodwar players rarely used Defilers until Savior showed everyone how awesome they are. Compared to defilers in early Broodwar progaming (to say nothing about the Stacraft 1 beta), ultras are actually already quite popular.
It's of course entirely possible that in the end the game develops in such a way that Ultras will become a rare and weak unit, but at this point any speculation is very premature.
For the record, I'm a zerg player who relies quite heavily on ultras in the late game and I find them to be useful and strong enough to justify the long tech.
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On July 16 2010 04:04 thopol wrote:
How about this: The ultra can be upgraded to pour creep out of oozing sores all over its body. This makes it partially a support unit, encourages its use with hydras instead of zerglings, and is generally dope.
What if when the ultra died into exploded into a pile of creep. That'd be so awesome.. but definitely saved for some heart of the swarm zergy flavour. ^^
On July 16 2010 05:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Ultralisks are perfectly fine. Their incredibly long tech-to and build time, however, is not.
Yeah, I'd love to see the Ultra Den build faster. That's really my only gripe with ultras at this point. =}
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Ultras seem over powered if you ask me.. I was pure tank/thor/hell with about 12 vikings, 200/200, and all he did was send 100 ovys to my army and drop all over it. What can T do about that.. lmao. And of course some retard will say "don't let it happen" but it was one of thos games where we both macroed and expanded freely to 200/200.
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With 12 vikings + thors how did half the overlords not die instantly before even dropping their units...? X_X
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On July 16 2010 03:55 Jerubaal wrote:
I think the ultralisk should carry a large shrubbery in front of him so that he can sneak up on enemy siege lines.
C'mon those blades are perfect.
but this would make them cuter than banelings 
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On July 16 2010 06:37 Gescom wrote:
With 12 vikings + thors how did half the overlords not die instantly before even dropping their units...? X_X
Because as soon as one drops, thors only target the ultras, and vikings can't kill the ovys fast enough, + he had a lot of meat shield empty ones in front.
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nobody discussing maps
i guess more open-centered maps where ultras can flank are in order ......
people just think about these maps, but really
Blizzard can just make good games, not good maps!
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this would be great. thumbs upp 4 u mister hardcorebilly. i have been thinking of something similar. like some sort of ramming abillity. because they are hard too use if your name is not TLO. i have been teching up too ultra and everytime i loose. even when i tech up too broodlord i get steamrolled. zerg needs a strong unit! buff ultra! get rid of the broodlord and give wings too ultras! f*"# yeah!
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Charge...is no good, zealots already do that. It's very unzergy too.
Ultras would be totally awesome if they could move while burrowed. All that talk about positioning them correctly, well how about not having to position them in a fixed location. You might have to tweak them a little, but it can't be that hard to get something everyone would be happy with. If roaches can do it...ultras can too.
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Ultras are already overpowered. They were more than fine last patch. (At high levels of play).
It's metagame why they weren't used and reputation. Same reason tanks were 'unpowered' and unused when beta first came out.
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On July 16 2010 07:52 oxxo wrote:
Ultras are already overpowered. They were more than fine last patch. (At high levels of play).
It's metagame why they weren't used and reputation. Same reason tanks were 'unpowered' and unused when beta first came out.
Tanks were not very good against most threats until the AOE splash change, so no they were not just 'underused'
ultralisks in early beta had no advantage over roach beyond an aoe melee attack that was less useful than lots of short ranged ranged attacks
edit: ultralisks are not weak or needing a major change at the moment, though. they are very strong
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Ultralisks should have blink with lasers on their head imo... maybe some sort of cloak upgrade late game.. currently they are so bulky its too easy to spot them... but late game cloak when zerg is on 5-base (like they are every game) they should be able to afford it..
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i used to cry that the ultralisk was crap however i've found the unit to work very well against terran mech. if anything they need to be half the size and be able to push friendlys out of the way so they can move freely in combat. against toss however they're a joke.
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Ultralisks aren't underpowered, if they had charge the game would be anything but balanced. Have you played any TvZ and tryed fighting a clump of units with ultralisks in it?
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ultras are really, really good. I have just started switching to pure air these days as terran. I find cost for cost, ultras trash tanks and thors. mm balls? lol yea right.. 1 ultra can probly kill 100 marines
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ultras should have "trample" which provides 0 collission ;D
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The ai for zerglings just need to be changed so they move out of the ultralisks' way when the ultralisks want to attack.
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Summary of 50% of the posts ITT: In my opinion the ultralisk is fine. Zerg is already too good. I have a probe/SCV icon.
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They need to be able to walk over zerglings like Colossi.
Or at least force the lings to move out of the way. Can you imagine an Ultra in battle not attacking because a zergling is in the way? Come on.
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Ultralisks needs the ability to swim on the water, lava and other liquids of our maps.
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They should be able to fly and have burrow holes that stay so the enemies units fall into them and die
+ Show Spoiler +
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I think that the problem is not that they all get destroyed but that they clump and prevent each other from attacking the target. The idea of "massive" units was unique, but in my opinion a failure. They've already made the Thor smaller and the colossus doesn't have the problem because it can stand on top of units. If they would make the unit size of the ultralisk smaller than they would be able to get to the enemy instead of forming a single file line (usually) to attack.
Massive units=unique idea=ingame failure
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Ultralisks are fine now for the reason that if you manage to get a decent surround with them, they absolutely destroy any ground army (except maybe immortals and spread out thors) due to their splash damage. At the very least they take the hits for your other units to get close.
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or jus take away the 'armored' modifier from them. they are still crap right now.
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OK so, I read through all the posts, and I have to say I have to agree with many of them. Even those that oppose my ideas.
The idea that actually intrigues me the most is also the simplest:
Make Ultralisks smaller and have BETTER PATHING. Most of you guys who posted don't play Zergs and therefore had never been in awe at how your mass Ultras all die because they keep walking, colliding one another, and not even attacking the enemy. This has probably made Zerg players lose countless close games, all because the Ultras just don't know when to strike.
Please people at least agree with this. Its not asking for much. As of right now, Ultras are incredibly stupid on the battlefield, and when there's like 4+ Ultralisks next to each other, at least one of the Ultra will get stuck and keep moving back and forth.
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I've been thinking about a charge for the ulisk myself... Maybe not an autocast like the zealot's, but rather a targeted skill (adding some micro to it), in order to be able to charge those pesky tanks! Perhaps even ignore unit collision? (Probably a little imba.  )
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I strongly believe that Ultralisks are not the problem, but it is the current map pool. To be honest, I think the game is near perfectly balanced, but we need professional maps to prove it. Blizzard is trying to babysit the game by nerfing and buffing way too many things. I think the game would easily balance itself if they would either make good maps or use BW Ports. After these maps are made, I would predict Ultralisk be considered overpowered if anything.
1 ultra can probly kill 100 marines
Not at all. Since they changed the Ultralisks to do good damage versus Armored and not so good damage versus everything else, Ultralisk cannot even kill 3 Zealots who aren't microed. Maybe four, but it was a stupidly low number.
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How about make it a cast where u charge to a certain point and they trample things they bump into on the way?
Of course to balance it out, the new buff to ultralisks ( immune to stuns and mind control) would have to be removed
Also make the researchable, so theres an option to ave ultras have more armor or the charge ability
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Ultra is perfectly fine as-is. Making Carriers viable would be more impressive... and I play Z so plenty of bias included.
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The only change I'd like to see with Ultras is that they can walk through lings the way a Collosus walks through Protoss gateway units. Also, their pathing sucks. That's it, seeyalaterbye.
If you're Zerg, and you're against a meching terran, I tend to drop a spire and threaten with mutas so that he ends up making more Thors and less tanks. Then Ultras become much more useful, because while I'm moving his thors out of position with my constant barrage of harrass (I tend to make some corrupters to help deal with whatever vikings he's trying to add, and possibly convince him I'm going for a greater spire), and then barrel into his scant amount of tanks with 3-5 ultras in front of the rest of my army. If that doesn't win outright, it sets him so far back he'll never leave his base. Then I expand all over the map and either starve him out, or win by attrition.
The key it to force him not to make tanks. If you're looking for ultras to be an "I win" unit, you need a lead-in to make it somewhat close to that.
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Ultra should be able to move underground like the roaches ;D How epic would it be to see ultras just pop up in the middle of your mech, or bio ball and just get swarmed by zerglings.
But seriously, ultras do fine. Infestors cast fungal on marines and marauders, and the ultralisks just kill them with their mighty claws that do aoe. One thing i'd like to see are ultralisk burrows with zerglings burrow. Infestors are dangerous as well since they can neural parasite underground now and move quickly too. Set up a trap with ultras and zerglings, spring up when the army comes into the circle of doom and surround them :o
If they don't come into you're trap, expand like mad :D
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As a unit I think Ultras are awesome. What I don't like is what it takes to get them...
Colossus is Cyber core 50 seconds, Robotics 65, Bay 65 = 180 seconds.
Carrier is Cyber Core 50 seconds, Stargate 60, Fleet Beacon 60 = 170 seconds.
Thor is Factory 60, Tech lab 25, armory 65 = 150 seconds (really 125 since you can do the tech lab/armory at the same time).
Battle Cruiser is Factory 60, Starport 50, Fusion Core 65 = 175
Then look at ultra...Lair is 80, Infestation Pit 50, Hive is 100, Cavern is 65 = 295 seconds.
Terran takes 225 gas to get Thor, 350 to get Battle Cruisers, Protoss takes 400 for Colossus, 350 for Carriers, Zerg takes 550 gas for Ultra.
So overall Ultras take over 50% longer to tech to than the next closest tier 3 units, and the tech costs almost 75% more gas than most of them. Why does the hive take 100 seconds to get?
To "fix" the ultra I think all they really need to do is change the time and gas investment required to get the tech. As a unit it's very powerful, but most games won't even get to the point where you can realistically get them out. Tier 2 Zerg is an absolute gas hog and lings start losing a lot of their effectiveness mid game, making for an almost non-existant window to tech to ultras in most games the Zerg isn't far ahead in.
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The unit is fine which is why they are devastating when they can be used to full effect. The problem is the maps, they are too small with too many chokepoints for large units, especially melee units.
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i think they should:
make the ultralisk a lot smaller
reduce their dmg and hp
reduce cost to 150-150
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I just dont understand why they dont rescale the ultra. He is just too big.
They are also a joke vs Bio specially because of the ridic costs. Legs would be awesome and i like the idea. But lets face it most likely wont happen 
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On July 16 2010 14:34 Disp wrote:
As a unit I think Ultras are awesome. What I don't like is what it takes to get them...
Colossus is Cyber core 50 seconds, Robotics 65, Bay 65 = 180 seconds.
Carrier is Cyber Core 50 seconds, Stargate 60, Fleet Beacon 60 = 170 seconds.
Thor is Factory 60, Tech lab 25, armory 65 = 150 seconds (really 125 since you can do the tech lab/armory at the same time).
Battle Cruiser is Factory 60, Starport 50, Fusion Core 65 = 175
Then look at ultra...Lair is 80, Infestation Pit 50, Hive is 100, Cavern is 65 = 295 seconds.
Terran takes 225 gas to get Thor, 350 to get Battle Cruisers, Protoss takes 400 for Colossus, 350 for Carriers, Zerg takes 550 gas for Ultra.
So overall Ultras take over 50% longer to tech to than the next closest tier 3 units, and the tech costs almost 75% more gas than most of them. Why does the hive take 100 seconds to get?
To "fix" the ultra I think all they really need to do is change the time and gas investment required to get the tech. As a unit it's very powerful, but most games won't even get to the point where you can realistically get them out. Tier 2 Zerg is an absolute gas hog and lings start losing a lot of their effectiveness mid game, making for an almost non-existant window to tech to ultras in most games the Zerg isn't far ahead in.
Sir, I have deciphered your secret code and I quite agree.
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Lately I've been having huge amounts of fun with ultras - they're a great transition from almost any build. If you don't position totally horribly, they don't really have any amazing counters except immortals and thors, and they're amazing meat shields. The difficulty in using them is seriously exaggerated - as long as you aren't getting them stuck behind speedlings or bottlenecked they're going to do horribly huge damage and soak up a ton more. Together with hydras or banelings or just about anything to clean up anything left they're a really great unit; any decrease in their size would make them a ton worse against tanks as the tanks would actually splash other units.
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ultras themselves are super fine imo. they do a TON of damage and take a reasonable amount of damage themselves.
the only problem is getting to them. pool->lair->pit->hive->ultra den and then the super long build time for them has got to be the longest tech in the game. this is what really screws up against goods terrans / protoss. If I could have just one or two ultras ready when my opponent does the mid game push, id would be just fine. but without mindlessly fast teching (remember: you will burn most of your gas just for teching to them) this isn't really possible.
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The change that I would offer is to bring back the upgraded speed so with both natural speed and upgraded speed they are as fast as they were in broodwar. I would also point out that they should be able to step over your own zerglings
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Why would you get ultras for hydras and marine balls, you have banelings for that.
And no, sentrystalker do not stop ultralisks, but mass blink stalkers work.
Ultras actually beat immortals, colossus, and thor at equal resources and wide open positioning.
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I think the Ultra is just about where it should be. The only change I'd make is a slight uptick to its speed. The advantage of ranged units like the thor, immortal, or roach is that they don't need to close as much distance to begin attacking.
I think the ultra should be equal speed to a stalker off creep. This would mean that stalkers can't kite without blink, and marauders, being a cheaper unit, can get chased down fairly quickly. Ideally the ultra should be able to close distance to target with a stalker after the stalker getting 1 shot off, and the ultra and the stalker making the next attack at roughly the same time.
On creep the ultra should be able to close fast enough to beat the weapon cool down of the stalker and do 1 shot before the stalker, at such a speed that the ultra gets 3 hits in to the stalker's 2 hits.
Right now, as I see it, the stalkers are getting in 2 hits before the ultra gets 1, without micro. Changing that should should make ultras pretty good, while allowing the opponent to mitigate this increased speed with unit control.
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On July 17 2010 05:54 titaniumnuts wrote:
I think the ultra should be equal speed to a stalker off creep.
That is exactly how fast they are right now...
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I think the Ultra should have 600hp like he had and maybe is size should be reduced. Is enormous size is really a problem since its a melee unit, they block each other at chocks and struggle to find a target to hit. At the moment they are really hard to control and you often lose half of them before any damage can be done. But they do huge damages to armored units.
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Ultras seem fair now. This comes from zerg who didn't consider them worth using before current patch, so decent changes have been made.
Size reduction indeed sounds like a decent change, which should't be considered as buff imo. They may be getting a bit too much stuck behind the armies as it is now.
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Ultras are extremly good right now against Terran. I can't believe anyone is complaining about them.
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Dont see what the problem is with Ultras atm. If anything needs a buff its the Archon
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On July 16 2010 14:34 Disp wrote:
As a unit I think Ultras are awesome. What I don't like is what it takes to get them...
Colossus is Cyber core 50 seconds, Robotics 65, Bay 65 = 180 seconds.
Carrier is Cyber Core 50 seconds, Stargate 60, Fleet Beacon 60 = 170 seconds.
Thor is Factory 60, Tech lab 25, armory 65 = 150 seconds (really 125 since you can do the tech lab/armory at the same time).
Battle Cruiser is Factory 60, Starport 50, Fusion Core 65 = 175
Then look at ultra...Lair is 80, Infestation Pit 50, Hive is 100, Cavern is 65 = 295 seconds.
Too many posts to cover so I'll just say a couple things:
Terran takes 225 gas to get Thor, 350 to get Battle Cruisers, Protoss takes 400 for Colossus, 350 for Carriers, Zerg takes 550 gas for Ultra.
So overall Ultras take over 50% longer to tech to than the next closest tier 3 units, and the tech costs almost 75% more gas than most of them. Why does the hive take 100 seconds to get?
To "fix" the ultra I think all they really need to do is change the time and gas investment required to get the tech. As a unit it's very powerful, but most games won't even get to the point where you can realistically get them out. Tier 2 Zerg is an absolute gas hog and lings start losing a lot of their effectiveness mid game, making for an almost non-existant window to tech to ultras in most games the Zerg isn't far ahead in.
I'm just going to reply to this cause it looks like you made a lot of effort into this post... but I can't even tell if you're serious... There is literally too many holes in your argument and erroneous facts to point out. If anybody wants to tackle it, be my guest.
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-Banelings are useless late game. A ball of pretty much anything can take out most banelings and it just isn't cost efficient. You will never see any good players use banelings after they tech up to Lair, unless its ZvZ, and even that's rare.
-The whole "Then why don't you fix the Mothership and Carrier!" argument is so stupid. You're pretty much admitting those units needs change, no matter how minor, even though I think Mothership is somewhat balanced. Not to mention protoss already has an insane unit composition. Zealots, sentries, stalkers, void rays, templars, archons, immortals, and COLOSSUS. What more do you need? Protoss is the jack of all trade and probably master of all (if the Protoss player expands sufficiently anyways).
-I'm all for making Ultralisks smaller, have better pathing, have Colossus-like walking, cause as of right now, etc. its too risky.
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On July 17 2010 06:57 HardcoreBilly wrote:
-Banelings are useless late game. A ball of pretty much anything can take out most banelings and it just isn't cost efficient. You will never see any good players use banelings after they tech up to Lair, unless its ZvZ, and even that's rare.
Banelings are not an interresting unit but they are really useful all game long. It clear all marine/zealot/sentries/high templar packs instantly. With a nice flank, a group of ~10 baneling is absolutly deadly.
You can destroy drones/scv/probe with it too.
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On July 16 2010 04:05 HubertFelix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 03:51 HardcoreBilly wrote:
Likewise, the Ultralisks can be easily withered away by micro from a ranged attacker. In fact, the opponent doesn't even need to micro. In late games, they mean MMM balls, pure Hydras, and mass Stalker Sentry combos can probably can probably take down Ultras well before it even touches anything.
Use 2-3 infestors with your ultralisks, they will become much stronger you'll see. Why are you talking about sentries? Ultralisks break force fields.
at least someone gets it =D
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Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 05:54 titaniumnuts wrote:
I think the ultra should be equal speed to a stalker off creep. That is exactly how fast they are right now...
Just checked my numbers. You're right. Perhaps what I'm seeing is the slower turn speed in action, ultralisks bumping into things and not being able to change direction fast enough, so stalkers can move back and look like they are moving faster, when really the ultra is slowing down on units and terrain.
in that case maybe increasing the turn rate would be enough.
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Make hive level upgrade at baneling nest to morph Ultrarisk into an Ultrabaneling.
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EPT
