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United States12240 Posts
On July 09 2010 02:36 Chill wrote:Thank you for testing it  I'm really appreciative of people who look to bring information to us, as opposed to expecting information to be brought to them. I would have never known about this had you not made this thread. I think this is one of those issues that I would like to believe is a problem, but I can only see this causing issues in a very specific and rare circumstances on the existing map pool. With new maps, however, it could reveal a lot of information pretty readily. I would like to see it changed, but I don't feel it's a priority.
This is actually pretty old information, but it's good to bring it up again. The buzzword "psychic pathing" also adds to the urgency. I think a lot of people are downplaying the potential impact that the current pathfinding system may have in some games. The way that units behave when scouting now is just not logical. You should only be able to see and act upon the information presented to you through active vision and the fog of war, and your units need to follow suit. You can unwittingly pre-empt a clever move as a result of this.
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On July 09 2010 02:40 theqat wrote:
Holy smoke, what a great first post. Thank you for having a positive/neutral attitude and not filling your post with anti-Blizzard tripe.
Is this a new TL trend, disguising bitching with a OP compliment?
"Great post. Wow, it's refreshing you didn't have your way with me like that other guy."
"Really cogent and non-biased first post. I wish people would be non-biased and stop gang raping me in 8-FFA."
...
Sometimes the estrogen in a SC forum blows my mind.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Both your posts in this thread are really bad, knock it off.
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yeah i noticed this very early on in the beta and got used to it. would definitely like to see it fixed though
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On July 09 2010 02:26 Frozz wrote:
You'd level the whole playing field
To play with the pathing concealed.
But it don't mean jack
Just download a hack
And play with the whole map revealed.
Great one!
Also, I think this is a minor problem. It is loosely related to the fact that the players host the matches. I think it should be done HoN style, that would mean that no map hack would be possible and it could also enable rejoin on disconnect in team games if people wanted.
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Thanks for bringing this issue up. I think it will change the balance on a lot of maps. This definitely needs to be fixed.
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On July 09 2010 02:51 hello-navi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 02:40 theqat wrote:
Holy smoke, what a great first post. Thank you for having a positive/neutral attitude and not filling your post with anti-Blizzard tripe. Is this a new TL trend, disguising bitching with a OP compliment? "Great post. Wow, it's refreshing you didn't have your way with me like that other guy." "Really cogent and non-biased first post. I wish people would be non-biased and stop gang raping me in 8-FFA." ... Sometimes the estrogen in a SC forum blows my mind.
No trend; it's as simple as the fact that the OP demonstrated how to make a constructive post without unnecessarily demonizing anyone.
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has anyone also tested this for unitblocked ramps? i noticed this bug too but never thought about it much, and i think its a minor issue if its just about buildings, but if units would do the same, it would be a big thing imo. I cannot test it my self, since EU is still down 
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I have encountered this pathing problem before. I actually have an example on tape. What happened was I tried to attack a front door on blistering sands, decided against it, and move to attack the back door. I moved towards the back door - told my units to attack inside the base - and they turned around and ran head-first into my opponent's army because he has lowered one of his supply depot walls.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MakhStarcraft#p/u/28/1VPWdrIsKW4
At about 8:35
Just watch how stupid my army behaves when I am busy macroing in my base unaware that they have re-evaluated the 'best' route to their destination.
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Calgary25991 Posts
On July 09 2010 02:54 heyoka wrote:
Both your posts in this thread are really bad, knock it off.
Whoops. Sorry I didn't read that you had already taken care of it before I banned him.
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Calgary25991 Posts
This isn't entirely related, but I have an issue with units not updating their pathfinding. Usually I will send an SCV, then lower the Supply Depot. Which causes my SCV to go the wrong way and shuffle around. I hope that gets fixed because it's really frustrating.
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On July 09 2010 02:26 Frozz wrote:
You'd level the whole playing field
To play with the pathing concealed.
But it don't mean jack
Just download a hack
And play with the whole map revealed.
You are the man Frozz!
But as for the pathing, you've already sent the scout, so it's really not that big of a deal.
On July 09 2010 03:32 Chill wrote:
This isn't entirely related, but I have an issue with units not updating their pathfinding. Usually I will send an SCV, then lower the Supply Depot. Which causes my SCV to go the wrong way and shuffle around. I hope that gets fixed because it's really frustrating.
Agreed wholeheartedly. This is an annoyance. A very big one.
Edit: responded to Chill's comment that I didn't see.
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I've noticed this when sending probes to scout and they stop at the sides of ramps and dont go up them.
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Wow, this is more feedback than I expected so soon, thanks guys. ^_^
Frozz: lol, gj
misirlou, great example of how this could affect games on Scrap Station, exacly the kind of "unwitting pre-empting of a clever move" that Excalibur_Z talks about, I would think.
Makh, another great example, which speaks to the conceptually idealistic argument for fixing this issue (which, again, Excalibur_Z also mentions): a player's units should execute their orders according to the expectations of the player. Based on the information availible to you, you expected your units to use the only route you knew to be open, but since your units acted on other information not availible to you, they chose another unexpected route. Unintended, unexpected behaviour like this leads to diminished player immersion.
Chill & co, what you're bringing up is a completely separate pathfinding issue: the fact that the path is calculated when the order is given and then never updated unless another order is given. This is the part of the pathfinding that Flameberger and others are talking about, which if "fixed" could be quite computationally expensive. Obvsiously all paths for all moving units couldn't realistically be updated in real time, so finding an efficient balance between only-when-orders-are-given and real time would be a tricky problem for the developers. But, OT. perhaps this would deserve its own thread?
Viruuus: If both ramps on Blistering Sands are unblocked, units will go for whichever path is shorter which will likely mean the back door, depending on the starting position. But, importantly, not depending on scouting information...
eNyoron: Unintentional maphax, another great buzzword for this "feature"! Also, the situations on Desert Oasis etc are yet more great examples of how this can affect gameplay. Though, it seems the same argument came up in your thread as it has here, pretty much: "not gamebreaking", "when you know it exists you can adjust your actions." I guess this is kinda valid, and if nothing else a reason for not putting this on the top of the Critical Issues list.. But even if you can learn how to live with and exploit a bug, it is still a bug, and exploitable bugs are at the very least aesthetically displeasing, especially considering the amount of polish that goes into all aspects this game (well, almost all.. chatchannels etc *cough*) .
heyoka wrote:
Some player will notice his units are pathing differently, and decide rocks are gone and change his gameplan and the other guy and his fans will be pissed as all hell.
Yes, exactly! I'm just waiting for this to happen so it is taken seriously. 
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On July 09 2010 03:39 JHancho wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 03:32 Chill wrote:
This isn't entirely related, but I have an issue with units not updating their pathfinding. Usually I will send an SCV, then lower the Supply Depot. Which causes my SCV to go the wrong way and shuffle around. I hope that gets fixed because it's really frustrating. Agreed wholeheartedly. This is an annoyance. A very big one. I agree, but that could turn out harder to fix than OP. Because pathfinding cannot be updated all the time. It gets recalculated in certain situations only. That could increase the CPU load too much. On the other hand, if done properly the OP problem can be fixed with just some slight memory usage increase, but the same CPU (if not even lower CPU usage, because only the objects within vision would be calculated).
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United States5162 Posts
On July 09 2010 04:57 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 03:39 JHancho wrote:On July 09 2010 03:32 Chill wrote:
This isn't entirely related, but I have an issue with units not updating their pathfinding. Usually I will send an SCV, then lower the Supply Depot. Which causes my SCV to go the wrong way and shuffle around. I hope that gets fixed because it's really frustrating. Agreed wholeheartedly. This is an annoyance. A very big one. I agree, but that could turn out harder to fix than OP. Because pathfinding cannot be updated all the time. It gets recalculated in certain situations only. That could increase the CPU load too much. On the other hand, if done properly the OP problem can be fixed with just some slight memory usage increase, but the same CPU (if not even lower CPU usage, because only the objects within vision would be calculated).
Well, you may be right, but it wasn't like this more than a few patches ago, iirc.
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I don't know if this needs to be fixed, although I'd like it if it was. I have lost a lot of b-lings before because I thought they would go up a ramp and take out a wall naturally with an a-click passed the wall in, but they just sat next to the ramp and got rocked.
P.S.- I know how important it is to micro b-lings, but sometimes that isn't always viable.
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It should be fixed but won't because of money.
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I bet you could find 'sweet spots' on most maps, where if you place a unit there, and issues a move command to some place behind a choke you want to check, the immediate direction of movement of the unit will tell you whether the choke is blocked or not. This would make scouting the choke both safe and instant.
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EPT
