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Do you care about Psychic Pathing? - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Leeoku
Profile Joined May 2010
1617 Posts
July 10 2010 03:32 GMT
#61
i would have to disagree with scenario one since it would reveal their sort of strat possibly. but with the walling off scouting yes
uberdeluxe
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada306 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-10 03:37:54
July 10 2010 03:37 GMT
#62
I totally agree! (both with what you are saying and with people thanking you for not insulting blizz )

great first post, definitely think they should fix this. For anyone who doesn't understand, heres a rough drawing I made showing what he means!

[image loading]
*edit* thats a drone, by the way
You see, if it were BW, it would simply try to go up the ramp in both situations.

P.S. Welcome to the community!! (I'm no veteran, but welcome!!)
No mules, no collosi, no PFs, just LOVE!
Sixes
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1123 Posts
July 10 2010 03:45 GMT
#63
On July 09 2010 02:10 Flameberger wrote:
I think fixing it would be great. Only potential problem I can see is that they would need to change the system so that a unit's planned path is updated frequently in order to deal with previously unseen obstacles (Side effect of this: Force field would bug out unit AIs much less). It's possible that such a change would increase lag in large battles because all the units would have to constantly be re-figuring out how to move as the units around them are changing position and if things like forcefields are popping up.


This, sounds a lot like collision detection in WAR ... great idea but the side effects ruin the game.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
July 10 2010 03:48 GMT
#64
Interesting. I think that the fact that scouting units don't go up the ramp is rather insignificant. However, the side-effect of this psychic pathing of units automatically finding some unblocked road is extremely important. Hiding the destruction of destructible rocks can be very crucial to many strategies and many games.
DTown
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States428 Posts
July 10 2010 03:49 GMT
#65
meh, its better than any feasible alternative. I say it should stay. Everyone can do it, so it doesn't give any one player an unfair advantage.
JaspluR
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia174 Posts
July 10 2010 04:05 GMT
#66
i dont think they would fix it but the question is: how can they fix it without affecting other pathing?
i think its fine if they dont fix it its not THAT much of a big deal, if you send a scout to their base and its walled off, it still heads in that direction of the base, but you wont know its walled off til it gets closer and veers away from the ramp and instead sticks to the side of the base wall
Ikkath
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom54 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-10 04:24:45
July 10 2010 04:17 GMT
#67
Not sure why they don't use the strategy every game dev in the world uses for this kind of pathing problem.

You have a long term goal (to get to the point clicked) and then have local situational behaviours that come into play given some problem - like if something obstructs the goal in some way.

Under this system the scout would not know apriori that the route is blocked until it touched nose with the blocked section of terrain. At this point there are a number of simple local behaviours that can come into play - the simplest being just sit there. If of course it gets fired upon it will automatically move away with the danger avoidance type behaviour.

These behaviours are already in the game - its why attack-move will switch goals if an enemy comes in close. This would be easy to remedy - though would probably need some time to test properly in case of further unintended side effects.

Not sure why they decided to compute an absolute path given the initial (at time of clicking) state of the map and stick to it without a bailout behaviour. Seems quite shortsighted of them tbh.

A really old but quite comprehensive intro to the issues of pathing (with cool java demos) can be found here

Edit: This post reads like garbage - but I have been up all night with the beta so meh! EU Beta!
ed21x
Profile Joined January 2010
United States103 Posts
July 10 2010 04:39 GMT
#68
On July 09 2010 02:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2010 02:36 Chill wrote:
On July 09 2010 02:05 Tamlin wrote:
Believe me, I tested it.

Thank you for testing it I'm really appreciative of people who look to bring information to us, as opposed to expecting information to be brought to them. I would have never known about this had you not made this thread.

I think this is one of those issues that I would like to believe is a problem, but I can only see this causing issues in a very specific and rare circumstances on the existing map pool. With new maps, however, it could reveal a lot of information pretty readily. I would like to see it changed, but I don't feel it's a priority.


This is actually pretty old information, but it's good to bring it up again. The buzzword "psychic pathing" also adds to the urgency. I think a lot of people are downplaying the potential impact that the current pathfinding system may have in some games. The way that units behave when scouting now is just not logical. You should only be able to see and act upon the information presented to you through active vision and the fog of war, and your units need to follow suit. You can unwittingly pre-empt a clever move as a result of this.


exactly. it is always best for units to follow in the path most closely associated with the player's command rather extra information or AI created strategies. Ultimately this takes away too much control when the AI decides too many things on behalf of the player.
a little dab will do ya
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
July 10 2010 04:41 GMT
#69
--- Nuked ---
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
July 10 2010 06:25 GMT
#70
It might cause an issue depending on the map. Say on scrap station the rocks are cleared open by your opponent and you decide to move to his base, but your units path through the middle. Not sure if that would actually happen though.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
Tamlin
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden47 Posts
July 10 2010 10:33 GMT
#71
uberdeluxe: Thanks, and gj on the illustration. However that only illustrates one effect of the issue..

On July 10 2010 12:48 Ryuu314 wrote:
the side-effect of this psychic pathing of units automatically finding some unblocked road is extremely important. Hiding the destruction of destructible rocks can be very crucial to many strategies and many games.


This is probably the most important and game-affecting part of this issue.. And as many of you are pointing out, Scrap Station is probably the best example of where this could clearly dictate the outcome of a game.


A lot of you guys are arguing that since both players are equally affected by this, it is not unfair... Well, sure, but what if only one of the players even knows about this? Sure high-level players will most likely be well aware of any and all exploits and bugs, but you can't really expect that from all "normal" players. Giving a player an advantage just because he happens to be aware of an exploitable side-effect of the pathing algorithm like this is not reasonable and not fair IMO.
D00mbuggy
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4 Posts
August 24 2010 20:46 GMT
#72
I think a simple fix would be not to take any building into path finding until it is viewable through the fog of war.
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