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This will be my first post here on TL. Thanks for existing!
About me, let's just say I've been a gamer since before NES, and my understanding of SC2 theory and strategy is much better than my actual micro and macro.
Anyway, there's this issue I've been following, and I'm curious what you guys think, and if you even care about it. I think most of us would agree the new and improved unit pathing system in SC2 is awesome. But perhaps it is too good?
In short: the pathfinding algorithm for all units has access to and makes decisions based on global map-state information which not availible to the player.
In other words, when giving units move commands, the path isn't calculated based on what you as a player see on the map and in the fog of war, but instead it is based on what the map actually looks like - in terms of buildings, (un)blocked ramps, (destroyed) destructible rocks..
For example, say I'm playing a match on Blistering Sands. Say I don't scout. Say my opponent walls off his ramp tightly and destroys the back door rocks. Then I finally give a scout a move command into his base. What will happen is that this unit will head directly for the back door. Believe me, I tested it. I will still see the rocks in the fog of war until my unit actually reaches them, at which point they vanish.
A more common but arguably more trivial side effect of this occurs if you send a scout just as the opponent walls off his ramp. Have you ever sent a scout which refused to go up the ramp and instead just sat at the wall on the side of the ramp, often ending up promptly getting shot by a marine without giving you any scouting info whatsoever? This is because the pathing algorithm already knows that the ramp is walled off even though you haven't scouted it, so instead of trying to go up the ramp (and showing you what building are actually blocking it) it goes to the closest reachable point, which is often next to the wall at the side of the ramp. Personally I avoid this problem by giving scouts waypoints on and above the ramp before continuing into the base..
I imagine that this "psychic pathing" could be used on certain maps for stealthily scouting for blocked-off ramps or destroyed back doors from a distance, but I'm not sure how relevant this could actually be for high-level matches. According to a blue post, the development team apparently had a discussion about this and decided that it was not a bug.
Like I said, I'm interested to see what you guys think of this, or if you even think it is noteworthy. So why not add a poll? ^_^
Poll: Do you care about Psychic Pathing?This is significant and should definitely be fixed. (274) 50% Not a huge deal but it should probably be fixed. (165) 30% It's an issue, but minor enough to not affect the outcome of any actual games. (68) 12% This is completely insignificant, I don't care. (41) 7% 548 total votes Your vote: Do you care about Psychic Pathing? (Vote): This is significant and should definitely be fixed.
(Vote): Not a huge deal but it should probably be fixed.
(Vote): It's an issue, but minor enough to not affect the outcome of any actual games.
(Vote): This is completely insignificant, I don't care.
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I think fixing it would be great. Only potential problem I can see is that they would need to change the system so that a unit's planned path is updated frequently in order to deal with previously unseen obstacles (Side effect of this: Force field would bug out unit AIs much less). It's possible that such a change would increase lag in large battles because all the units would have to constantly be re-figuring out how to move as the units around them are changing position and if things like forcefields are popping up.
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I agree with above, it might not be a simple fix. I would like it to be changed, but at what cost... don't know.
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first off welcome to TL, i think this is a great post something i also have noticed when playing and didn't think much of it except that it was annoying but now that you have thought it all out i have to agree with you the system needs to be changed so that the units move as if they only know what us the player knows, how ever i do agree that there are some problems with this and that FF might make this tricky, but im gonna say its an issue but its not a huge one if they fix it great if not the only advantage i see it giving is that you know if rocks are down probably 10 seconds before your units see it just by seeing what route they are taking.
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Nice first post, but unfortunately I don't agree with you, I think it is a minor issue and won't really have a significant affect on games.
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I get this a lot on Desert Oasis when my opponent walls in and my scouting probe stops at some random point that's not my opponent's base. I'd be fine if it's fixed, but I don't think it's a problem as-is. Every player operates under the same rules. Moreover, the only information it can give you that you don't already have is that a choke is blocked or that a rock is destroyed, and it will only give you that information once you're reasonably close to the terrain in question. By the time you 'scout' this information with the pathing bug, you've already sent a unit to the area to scout, and there's not much you can do with that information until you complete a real scout anyway.
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Maybe not top priority, but they should definitely fix it so that a unit will walk all the way to a blockage that you haven't scouted.
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not a huge deal but it should probably be fixed - except that it's a risky fix and could make things worse
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You'd level the whole playing field
To play with the pathing concealed.
But it don't mean jack
Just download a hack
And play with the whole map revealed.
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like in scrap station when someone just a-moves their army to opponents main and doesnt even care about watching them because of macro or because its a noob, and the opp destroyed the rocks for a sneaky atack and their army just goes throught the rocks :S
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As someone who's been programming for a while, I can tell you this likely isn't an easy fix, pathfinding is a computationally expensive thing, so you make it as efficient as you can. That is likely why the system is the way it is now. My guess is that they trade off pathfinding from player maps in exchange for the fact that the pathing in general is pretty solid, and consistent across the game.
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Where's the option for "This is significant, but a cool exploit that deserves to stay in the game"
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You can look at it one of two ways.
Either A) a tool that you need to regularly use to keep tabs on the map state, without having to send units into danger. Players that use it regularly, and well, will gain the advantage.
B) A bug that makes things unfair for the guy that doesn't use it.
Aren't we looking for things in the former category to make the game more involved and interesting?
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Calgary25998 Posts
On July 09 2010 02:05 Tamlin wrote:
Believe me, I tested it.
Thank you for testing it  I'm really appreciative of people who look to bring information to us, as opposed to expecting information to be brought to them. I would have never known about this had you not made this thread.
I think this is one of those issues that I would like to believe is a problem, but I can only see this causing issues in a very specific and rare circumstances on the existing map pool. With new maps, however, it could reveal a lot of information pretty readily. I would like to see it changed, but I don't feel it's a priority.
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On July 09 2010 02:30 neurolite wrote:
As someone who's been programming for a while, I can tell you this likely isn't an easy fix, pathfinding is a computationally expensive thing, so you make it as efficient as you can. That is likely why the system is the way it is now. My guess is that they trade off pathfinding from player maps in exchange for the fact that the pathing in general is pretty solid, and consistent across the game.
Actually it is not a computationally expensive thing but a memory consuming fix. To fix it each player must store a second navigational graph over the map that holds the current path data that is known to the player.
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I agree with Chill. I think it's an issue, but mostly something to watch, maybe. If it becomes exploitable, then it should be changed ASAP. Sounds like something that shouldn't be possible, but unknown if it's destroying things.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I agree with Chill, but this is the kind of thing that will suddenly become a huge issue when it effects a game 5 in some tournament finals. Some player will notice his units are pathing differently, and decide rocks are gone and change his gameplan and the other guy and his fans will be pissed as all hell.
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Definitely needs fixing. You listed very applicable exploits of it, but there are more subtle ones too - just your army composition behaves way too intelligently (magically), foreseeing obstacles which otherwise would surprise it.
Having this internal maphack in the game reduces the fun with scouting and hiding information between the players. I'm all for Blizzard making the game easier when something doesn't need choices and revolves around repeating the same routines over and over, in all games, but this particular "improvement" is illogical, and only makes the game less interesting.
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On July 09 2010 02:26 Frozz wrote:
You'd level the whole playing field
To play with the pathing concealed.
But it don't mean jack
Just download a hack
And play with the whole map revealed.
Please temp ban Shel Silverstein troll.
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Holy smoke, what a great first post. Thank you for having a positive/neutral attitude and not filling your post with anti-Blizzard tripe.
I do think the AI functionality should be changed specifically because it has given away that my opponent killed the rocks on Blistering Sands a few times.
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EPT
