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Pathfinding design blunder - Perfect information

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
eNyoron
Profile Joined September 2009
United States170 Posts
May 06 2010 17:13 GMT
#1
You may have noticed this in games you've played, especially those against terran. You give a move/a-move command to units and they begin to take an unusual path to the target location. In the case of a wall in, they just kind of wander around the cliff edge to the main of your opponent. The units know that the wall in is preventing entrance into the base, regardless of whether or not they've actually seen the wall in.

In the case where there are two entrances to your base (desert oasis/incineration zone natural), and you wall one off, the units will automatically go the other way around without ever seeing the wall. Meaning, the pathfinding AI knows exactly where every players buildings are as they are being built (unintentional maphacks). This is poor design, visual confirmation (as in the HUMAN player can actually see the opponents buildings) needs to be made first before the pathfinding knows to go around automatically.

Replay showing exactly what I mean:

http://www.mediafire.com/?cmwymu01yoc
0sm9sm8sm... the beginning of the end.
Mr.Pyro
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Denmark959 Posts
May 06 2010 17:14 GMT
#2
It's not really gamebreaking tbh..
P⊧[1]<a>[2]<a>[3]<a>tt | P ≝ 1.a.2.a.3.a.P
fuzzehbunneh
Profile Joined May 2010
United States66 Posts
May 06 2010 17:14 GMT
#3
this man speaks truth. ive had this happen many times
Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow
Mutaahh
Profile Joined June 2007
Netherlands859 Posts
May 06 2010 17:14 GMT
#4
ya, i have noticed that too today.

I was playing vs terran as zerg.

And i tried to move to his minerals. but somehow my units went for his rocks at the back of his base instead of the unseen wall-in. kinda free information, and a bug for sure.
I want to fly
pyr0ma5ta
Profile Joined May 2010
United States458 Posts
May 06 2010 17:16 GMT
#5
Yep, unintentional maphacks. I've found this to be quite obnoxious, when trying to scout and your scout just sits at the bottom of the ramp instead of actually running up to see what addon the rax has, etc.
"I made you a zergling, but I eated it." - Defiler
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
May 06 2010 17:17 GMT
#6
It's not obnoxious. When you know it exists you can adjust your actions.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
fellcrow
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States288 Posts
May 06 2010 17:21 GMT
#7
Yeah WHEN you know. Why doesnt he just fucking run up to the wall so you can know that you can know that it exists instead making me wonder if i mis clicked lol. I agree, they should map there travels based on your fog of war view, not the actual.
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Lollersauce
Profile Joined April 2010
United States357 Posts
May 06 2010 17:23 GMT
#8
On May 07 2010 02:17 Mothxal wrote:
It's not obnoxious. When you know it exists you can adjust your actions.


Why do we have to issue 2 commands to scout inside a base when we don't actually know if there's a wall-in? It makes no sense the unit would auto-guess to stop somewhere to the side.

This has other, more problematic ramifications with destructible rocks and "surprise" attacks.
ilnp
Profile Joined December 2002
Iceland1330 Posts
May 06 2010 17:23 GMT
#9
also if you use waypoints, he will plan his entire route based on when you first issue all the commands, not one at a time

for instance, i tell the scv to move to the back of my base, then outside my base, while my wall is up. after i issue command, i lower a supply depot. he will not recognize the supply depot is open and just run into the cliff, because there was no path outside my base when i issued the commands earlier
8===D~~
Canukian
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada69 Posts
May 06 2010 17:28 GMT
#10
What about when you lower a supply and try to go over it and your unit stops on it and you need to move it again.
SC1 - Horrible, SC2beta - im less bad
hoovehand
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom542 Posts
May 06 2010 17:29 GMT
#11
if it auto guesses and stops outside then you know there's a wall-in... or a fake wall-in

i don't think this is a big deal after thinking about the extra code which would need to be plonked into the game.
Roniii
Profile Joined March 2010
United States289 Posts
May 06 2010 17:31 GMT
#12
This is a very obvious issue but tbh i dont really see a huge reason to change it. A minor inconvenience
you think as i do
MasterOfChaos
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Germany2896 Posts
May 06 2010 17:32 GMT
#13
That's just a simple quantum mechanical effect.
LiquipediaOne eye to kill. Two eyes to live.
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-06 17:34:59
May 06 2010 17:33 GMT
#14
i think they should fix it. if u dont have vision of an event units shouldnt be aware of it, just like if u break down rocks or w/e i think its bullshit the units knows if there r rocks there or not while the human player cant see ...

maybe it can just keep walk as far as it gets before it spots the actual wallin
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-06 17:37:23
May 06 2010 17:36 GMT
#15
This also happens in BW. Not much of an issue, except with destructible rocks/buildings.
I'll call Nada.
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
May 06 2010 17:41 GMT
#16
I don't like this either. It shouldn't be too hard to fix because all the required information already has to be there.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
SirNeb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States243 Posts
May 06 2010 17:50 GMT
#17
I don't think pathing should be done this way, I've noticed this for a while too. The" improvement" in pathfinding causes a little bit of annoyances, such as in BW, when u maynard your scvs before u lift your rax on your wall off, you can open it just in time to let the scv go through. In SC2, they would get stuck at a cliff if u hide your depots AFTER u send them over to natural. I think that this last path improved it a little bit but I'm not sure since I haven't played much since the patch.
MasterReY
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Germany2708 Posts
May 06 2010 17:57 GMT
#18
I want to inform you that they dont just "wander around the edge of the base" when they can't enter because of a wall.

They go directly to the closest possible point from the point your sent them to.
so thats pretty logical.

However i agree that should only happen if you scouted the wall, but not game-breaking.
https://www.twitch.tv/MasterReY/ ~ Biggest Reach fan on TL.net (Don't even dare to mention LR now) ~ R.I.P Violet ~ Developer of SCRChart
TL+ Member
Mutaahh
Profile Joined June 2007
Netherlands859 Posts
May 06 2010 18:03 GMT
#19
pathfinding should work on the things you know....

no other option

its most fair
I want to fly
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
May 06 2010 18:07 GMT
#20
On May 07 2010 02:32 MasterOfChaos wrote:
That's just a simple quantum mechanical effect.

Schrodinger's wall-in?!
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