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I was browsing PlayXp.com and found a thread about a reunion held in blizzards HQ to talk about balance.
What i got from google translator is that Blizzard invited several pro gamers to help them discuss the balance of maps and match ups and the 3 races. They aim for some long term balancing process but some of the conclusions of this reunion will be implemented in the next set of patchs.
The reunion had 4 parts:
1- Usage of the different units
2- Strategies
3- Maps
4- Open talk about all the other aspects.
The sad part is that the people and the players attending this reunion aren't allowed to say what the players talked about and all the content of the reunion is confidential but blizzard said that they will release an official transcript of the reunion but only the positive points and the stuff that the players liked will be displayed ...
Here is the list of the participating players:
Zerg
Kim Won-ki (oGs. Cool)
Bakoesik (Gerrard.Prime)
Yihyeongju (Check.Prime)
Terran
Gimseongje (oGs.NCYellow)
Yigwanwoo (Ozil)
Yijungheon (DayFly.Prime)
Protoss
Seogisu (oGs.sSKS)
Jeongminsu (NEXGenius)
Hwanggyuhun (oGs.Spunky)
The interesting thing about this article is that it have a lot of pictures so we can see blizzard Reunion room, with the players talking and stuff, the projector with some maps and several stuff.
You can check it here: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view.php?article_id=1980356
I'm kind of disappointed that this kind of stuff is only held in Korea (for now) while there is a competitive scene in america and Europe and that our pro gamers could assist, specially that the play style of the Na/Eu community is somehow different from the play style of the korean players.
The game being addressed to 3 distinct community, it is only normal to ask what's the balance problems each community face. In some way it's really great of blizzard to involve players in the process of balancing the game and working on getting it more interesting for competitive play, but i hope this kind of stuff won't be restricted only to Korea and that Eu/Na point of view will be asked for.
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Hmm. They should ask BW pros for what makes a balanced / good game. But all listed were BW players and now are Sc2 players. Where's Maka 
They picked good players though, most of the oGs crew.
edit: guess they decided that they needed a new yellow? TT
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I'm aware that a large number of European and American players were directly contacted to discuss their thoughts on balance by members of Blizzard.
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darn, wished there were BW progamers, but guess they wouldn't have that kind of time =o
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WOAH! This is important. Very important.
Good on you blizz.
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well at least theres tester, all i want is my sc1 templar archive back
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On July 05 2010 10:19 Heosat wrote:
I'm aware that a large number of European and American players were directly contacted to discuss their thoughts on balance by members of Blizzard.
Source?
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BW progamers wouldn't have much of an idea how to help balance SC2 - if you brought them in from the very start they could have looked at a new unit and been like "well this will be good against X, bad against Y, balance issues A B and C" but Blizzard can't make huge changes, so its a much better idea to be asking the best players of the game thats actually in question what they can fix and what needs work.
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Why am I not surprised that even the pro gamers hate desert oasis? ha ha
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On July 05 2010 10:24 gun.slinger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 10:19 Heosat wrote:
I'm aware that a large number of European and American players were directly contacted to discuss their thoughts on balance by members of Blizzard. Source?
The conversations I had with the players would be my source?
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This is easy to do in korea, korea is a reasonably small country with lost of very good players so it is reasonably easy to get them all in one place. Compared to the United States which is very large, where are they going to meet, NY, LA? Europe is also pretty big.
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good for blizzard, gathering a good source of info for balance issues.
but....is it a bad thing for me that I don't recognize any of these progamers? anyone want to enlighten me on who they are?
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Sweden33719 Posts
The sad part is that the people and the players attending this reunion aren't allowed to say what the players talked about and all the content of the reunion is confidential but blizzard said that they will release an official transcript of the reunion but only the positive points and the stuff that the players liked will be displayed ...
They seriously said this? O_o Seems like a strange thing to say outright.
Also, Heosat has it correct (nope, nobody asked me /jealous).
On July 05 2010 10:16 NuKedUFirst wrote:Hmm. They should ask BW pros for what makes a balanced / good game. But all listed were BW players and now are Sc2 players. Where's Maka They picked good players though, most of the oGs crew. edit: guess they decided that they needed a new yellow? TT
People who haven't played SC2 can't help with balancing SC2. Lots of those guys were fairly high tier pros in SC / WC3, and they are all good at Sc2.
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A little off-topic but could someone translate what the anime overlord that's puking creep on that website is saying?
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They seriously said this? O_o Seems like a strange thing to say outright.
That's what i got from the translation, which can be inaccurate but the sentences talking about that subject were pretty accurately translated.
So in a balance talk when they say no one is allowed to talk about what have been said but we will reveal later all the positive stuff the players said, i only conclude that they won't release anything negative that have been said about their game.
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As Jinro alluded to all players were asked to agree to an NDA so you wont hear balance issues discussed anywhere.
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It's great to see how seriously Blizzard are taking the balance.
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On July 05 2010 10:24 gun.slinger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 10:19 Heosat wrote:
I'm aware that a large number of European and American players were directly contacted to discuss their thoughts on balance by members of Blizzard. Source?
You don't need source from the great heosat! :D
Seriously. This is awesome news!
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I have heard of all these people except:
Yigwanwoo (Ozil)
Yijungheon (DayFly.Prime)
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On July 05 2010 10:51 jamesr12 wrote:
I have heard of all these people except:
Yigwanwoo (Ozil)
Yijungheon (DayFly.Prime)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.png) DayFly played in the euro vs. Asia tournament, He is pretty good, not sure who Ozil is, poor guy doesn't even have a wiki.
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2629 Posts
Can we get a list of the EU/NA players who were involved in this ?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 05 2010 10:55 kino.heezy wrote:
Can we get a list of the EU/NA players who were involved in this ?
Apparently the ones involved, were under NDA.
On July 05 2010 10:43 Anfere wrote:That's what i got from the translation, which can be inaccurate but the sentences talking about that subject were pretty accurately translated. So in a balance talk when they say no one is allowed to talk about what have been said but we will reveal later all the positive stuff the players said, i only conclude that they won't release anything negative that have been said about their game.
Can positive be exchanged for "constructive"?
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Probably, i used the words used by the translator but yeah it can definitely be constructive which would have more sense.
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I hope it's constructive.
Not releasing "negative" things is stupid.
Not releasing "unconstructive" things is...good.
Thanks Heosat.
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It's a typically Asian thing to let only the positive stuff be put in public, and if I'm not wrong, even more so a Korean thing. The attitude of deference to one's seniors or superiors is very strong in Asian culture, as opposed to the mostly egalitarian culture that Westerners are used to.
If anyone needs a good example of how this culture is illustrated, does anyone remember Korean Air's atrocious airline crash record? Those crashes happened frequently because the co-pilot's job was to correct the Captain if something went wrong, but in almost all of these crashes, the co-pilot just shut up to avoid offending the Captain. It stopped happening when the airline had a cultural overhaul and today, people have pretty much forgotten about Korean Air's 80s-90s transgressions.
So guys, don't be too surprised or unhappy if the negative feedback is redacted in the official transcript. Because as much as Blizzard is a 'western' company per se, that interview is for the Korean audience.
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Hopefully they can get productive, useful feedback from this.
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If anything it's looking like Starcraft 2 will have a bright future. Blizzard are really pushing to make a quality product (gripes about Bnet 2.0 aside).
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On July 05 2010 10:46 oursblanc wrote:
It's great to see how seriously Blizzard are taking the balance.
Indeed, it's also great that map balance seem to have been a big subject there, especially since most Blizzard maps in the past have been pretty bad for competive play.
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On July 05 2010 11:12 InfiniteIce wrote:
I hope it's constructive.
Not releasing "negative" things is stupid.
Not releasing "unconstructive" things is...good.
Thanks Heosat.
you sir, are right! i'd be interested to see what the players had to say about the negative in sc2 that we know that some of us weren't the only ones that might've though, "oh hey this here is pretty retarded, the idea of it was great, but you went about it all wrong" and stuff like that
On July 05 2010 10:25 kzn wrote:
BW progamers wouldn't have much of an idea how to help balance SC2 - if you brought them in from the very start they could have looked at a new unit and been like "well this will be good against X, bad against Y, balance issues A B and C" but Blizzard can't make huge changes, so its a much better idea to be asking the best players of the game thats actually in question what they can fix and what needs work.
i'm gonna say you're wrong. people that played bw jumped into sc2 and got used to it pretty easily, at least i did and a few of my friends. although i do agree that talking to players that are the best in sc2 through the beta is a good idea, but i think it's silly they just asked any progamer who doesn't have experience in rts
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On July 05 2010 10:39 atarianimo wrote:
A little off-topic but could someone translate what the anime overlord that's puking creep on that website is saying?
Overlord: I drank too much yesterday...?
Bottom left: What's this?! (What the hell is this?!)
Vomit: Boo ackk (sound effect)
Bottom right: Argh!
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I hope this will help the game tremendously. Blizzard doing lots of work!
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I seriously hope Blizzard had collected feedbacks and ideas from the progamers earlier (by earlier I mean during 2006~2008). Would be alarmingly late if this is the first time they did it.
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On July 05 2010 12:29 mrdx wrote:
I seriously hope Blizzard had collected feedbacks and ideas from the progamers earlier (by earlier I mean during 2006~2008). Would be alarmingly late if this is the first time they did it.
Nah, I remembered a couple of years ago, they invited each pro team to send 1 or 2 players to go to a convention to try out SC2. It was one of the first videos on YouTube with top tier players such as bisu, sAviOr, NaDa, etc playing the game.
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On July 05 2010 10:53 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 10:51 jamesr12 wrote:
I have heard of all these people except:
Yigwanwoo (Ozil)
Yijungheon (DayFly.Prime) DayFly played in the euro vs. Asia tournament, He is pretty good, not sure who Ozil is, poor guy doesn't even have a wiki.
![[image loading]](http://www.fifa.com/imgml/tournament/worldcup2010/players/xl/305036.png)
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On July 05 2010 12:37 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 10:53 NuKedUFirst wrote:On July 05 2010 10:51 jamesr12 wrote:
I have heard of all these people except:
Yigwanwoo (Ozil)
Yijungheon (DayFly.Prime) DayFly played in the euro vs. Asia tournament, He is pretty good, not sure who Ozil is, poor guy doesn't even have a wiki.
yea, was just about to post something to that extent 
seen him a few times in this WC.
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On July 05 2010 11:31 Sephy69 wrote:i'm gonna say you're wrong. people that played bw jumped into sc2 and got used to it pretty easily, at least i did and a few of my friends. although i do agree that talking to players that are the best in sc2 through the beta is a good idea, but i think it's silly they just asked any progamer who doesn't have experience in rts
Yes, but BW progamers have, for the most part, almost no SC2 experience so far, except for IdrA. You don't ask people to balance a game they've never/barely played, no matter how good they are at another game.
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Very good news, I hope this factual evidence will help to reduce the claims that Blizzard has distanced itself from the Starcraft community, doesn't care about the top players, but just pleasing the average-low skill players, does not work seriously on making SC2 a good game etc. Only this part is a bit weird:
On July 05 2010 10:14 Anfere wrote:
they will release an official transcript of the reunion but only the positive points and the stuff that the players liked will be displayed ... I guess they mean to avoid spoiling their long-term balancing plans. But then it would put the few people, who've been there, to some advantage about what to expect from future editions, hence also what playing styles to develop. I think eventually the whole information should be made public, it won't even work to attempt to hide it for too long.
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Why is everyone saying they want BW players there?
What good would that be?
Obviously they're going to call in the people who have been playing the game thats actually being discussed ^_^
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I see the google translator didn't do the names well... Yijungheon, Hwanggyuhun ..
Or...! It must be encoded! *ponder*
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On July 05 2010 13:05 Subversion wrote:
Why is everyone saying they want BW players there?
What good would that be?
Obviously they're going to call in the people who have been playing the game thats actually being discussed ^_^
How dare you use logic to reason with fanboys.
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I think this is actually a very good move on Blizzard's part. I was hoping that they would have some sort of open discussion with people who have actually spent a lot of time with the game and who could really contribute advice about keeping the game balanced.
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Great to see blizz branching out and getting additional opinions for balance.
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You know some times I really don't understand blizzards PR department. Threw out the development of SC2 they have continually released information that has sent this community into a uproar(chat channels/LAN/MBS..etc). Uproars that never would have happened if they just took the time to explain things more carefully. They also have been rather stingy with information at times for reasons unknown.
There was no reason, at least as far as I can tell that we could not have had many more battle reports during development. They would have only made following the development of SC2 that much more interesting. I don't think they could of turned anyone off to buying the game. This feels similar to me. Reading what the pros have to say about how to improve sc2 just makes things more interesting. Even if their comments are negative I doubt it will prevent anyone from purchasing the game, If anything It will just generate more chatter and publicity for the game, and get more people to follow sc2. I just can't see how making these guys sign NDA, and keeping silent about the game helps Blizzard in any way
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Like many others I would prefer an open discussion but still a good move blizz. I hope we can get more info on this, would be nice to see what they suggested.
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Looks like Ozil is Lee Kwan-Woo... there was a Lee Kwan-Woo in WC3, a NE player Mamoru.. maybe the same person?
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cool new and no announce for beta phase 2 ? tilt
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I'm glad that Blizzard acknowledges and seeks help from the competitive sc community instead of trying to do what makes the most money. Looking forward to the transcript.
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From the beginning I thought that this was the best way to balance the game. Because if you can balance it at the high level, then the lower players will copy the better ones and the game will become balance overall. I am very excited to see what they changed and i hope they removed the dark shrine!
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On July 05 2010 13:05 Subversion wrote:
Why is everyone saying they want BW players there?
What good would that be?
Obviously they're going to call in the people who have been playing the game thats actually being discussed ^_^
Because TL as a whole tends to view BW players as superior in every way to any non BW player, including SC2 players. It's how things tend to be here. you kind of accept it. and smile. even though BW is really pretty vastly different than SC2.
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On July 05 2010 13:05 Subversion wrote:
Why is everyone saying they want BW players there?
What good would that be?
Obviously they're going to call in the people who have been playing the game thats actually being discussed ^_^
Flash and Jaedong are no "players". They are Xel'Naga themselves, sent down from the heavens to show mankind the purity of mutalisisk micro and the purity of TvP.
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On July 05 2010 15:29 PrinceXizor wrote:
TL as a whole tends to view BW players as superior in every way to any non BW player, including SC2 players. It's how things tend to be here. you kind of accept it. and smile. even though BW is really pretty vastly different than SC2.
SC2 is very easy for those coming from a BW background. It's hardly vastly different, just simpler + macro gimmicks. TL is almost always right, it's good that you are trying to accept it despite your ignorance.
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wow, the food looks derishris
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I was a very high level player in wow, and for arena balance blizzard would bring in the people winning tournaments, etc. This is a good idea, except when the developers had a complete bias as to who they were getting the information from, leading to an imbalance between classes (typically favouring rmp). Hopefully the sc2 team aren't douchebags.
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On July 05 2010 15:54 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 15:29 PrinceXizor wrote:
TL as a whole tends to view BW players as superior in every way to any non BW player, including SC2 players. It's how things tend to be here. you kind of accept it. and smile. even though BW is really pretty vastly different than SC2. SC2 is very easy for those coming from a BW background. It's hardly vastly different, just simpler + macro gimmicks. TL is almost always right, it's good that you are trying to accept it despite your ignorance.
Which still doesn't make the point invalid that BW-pros that never even played the game would do more harm than good in a balance discussion about SC2 maps. And if TL(majority) says different things about this, it still isn't right.
But it's nice to know that Blizzard does things like this, maybe they really do make great add-ons to BNet 2.0 later and it'll all be fine (daydreaming.. )
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i really hope an overhaul of the ladder maps comes out of this discussion, if anything.
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Am I the only one thinking that this is awesome? What company does this kind of things these days? Really well done blizzard  !
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It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3.
Imagine 2 approaches to a loss:
1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset)
2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset)
This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing.
Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On July 05 2010 13:48 InToTheWannaB wrote:
You know some times I really don't understand blizzards PR department. Threw out the development of SC2 they have continually released information that has sent this community into a uproar(chat channels/LAN/MBS..etc). Uproars that never would have happened if they just took the time to explain things more carefully. They also have been rather stingy with information at times for reasons unknown.
There was no reason, at least as far as I can tell that we could not have had many more battle reports during development. They would have only made following the development of SC2 that much more interesting. I don't think they could of turned anyone off to buying the game. This feels similar to me. Reading what the pros have to say about how to improve sc2 just makes things more interesting. Even if their comments are negative I doubt it will prevent anyone from purchasing the game, If anything It will just generate more chatter and publicity for the game, and get more people to follow sc2. I just can't see how making these guys sign NDA, and keeping silent about the game helps Blizzard in any way
Blizzard has to be careful. They don't want CNN doing a game review and conclude that the game is imbalanced because a lazy reporter read a article about what Korean progamers feel about the game.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity.
Your viewpoint is a commonly shared by many people in TL before SC2 Beta came out. Artosis and Incontrol used to say that foreigners would dominate SC2 in the beginning because foreigners are creative players while koreans are mindless mechanical machines. That stereotype turned out to be false as Korean players have dominated SC2 Beta. Tester dominated the The Altitude TL Invitational and Blizzard balanced the game to the needs of the Asian server instead of the US and EU servers because the strategies used by the Koreans are more advanced.
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On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity.
Koreans have better mechanics AND strategy in both games.
If foreigners are somehow strategically superior, how come all metagame revolutions were started by Koreans?
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Well, I'm glad they finally did it.
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On July 05 2010 17:11 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity. Koreans have better mechanics AND strategy in both games. If foreigners are somehow strategically superior, how come all metagame revolutions were started by Koreans?
they definitely weren't
i mean they've started quite a lot but for the first month and a half or so of beta people had korea written off as a weaker server based on their replays and stuff and were using their own stuff exclusively
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Speaking as an Asian, I'll have to say that the vast majority of us aren't the creative types. It's more likely that a small minority of the Korean players invented the new tactics, and those new tactics managed to proliferate everywhere and make the whole lot of other Asian players seem equally as creative and proficient as that small minority, because we make up for our general lack of creativity with the ability to absorb and copy new stuff very quickly. >_>
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On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity.
Sorry, but I believe you are wrong. Most of the gimmicks and inventive play I've seen was by watching the asian players streams. Days after a nice strategy was used on the asian servers you would see it popup on the EU/US servers.
And it's logical to be so. They have more people understanding the mechanics on BW which translate quite nice in SC2. Therefore more likely to have somebody come up with an interesting strategy. I'm not saying they are smarter. I'm saying they have more having the knowledge and interest therefore the possibility increases.
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On July 05 2010 17:26 Tropics wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 17:11 maybenexttime wrote:On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity. Koreans have better mechanics AND strategy in both games. If foreigners are somehow strategically superior, how come all metagame revolutions were started by Koreans? they definitely weren't i mean they've started quite a lot but for the first month and a half or so of beta people had korea written off as a weaker server based on their replays and stuff and were using their own stuff exclusively
Talking about BW.
I'm pretty sure we'll see that in SC2 once the game is released.
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On July 05 2010 17:10 MyHeroNoob wrote:
Fake yellow?
It's IntoTheRainbow.. he's been playing as NCYellow and SlayersBoxer throughout beta iirc. Guess he thinks its funny to smurf with those aliases :D
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On July 05 2010 10:21 Taekwon wrote:
darn, wished there were BW progamers, but guess they wouldn't have that kind of time =o
yeah:
Blizzard: So what do you think about the balance?
Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/others: ohmm, yeah, well those new units seem shiny, whatever the hell their names and abilities are
(they do not play the game, how you expect them to give balance tips?)
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Damn, I was really interested to see what all their thoughts on what's bad about the game is. I'm sure there's a lot. Oh big giant corporation and hiding things.
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On July 05 2010 15:54 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 15:29 PrinceXizor wrote:
TL as a whole tends to view BW players as superior in every way to any non BW player, including SC2 players. It's how things tend to be here. you kind of accept it. and smile. even though BW is really pretty vastly different than SC2. SC2 is very easy for those coming from a BW background. It's hardly vastly different, just simpler + macro gimmicks. TL is almost always right, it's good that you are trying to accept it despite your ignorance.
How exactly would BW players who haven't been playing SC2 be able to discuss race and map balance? It's not about who would beat who, its about who has most knowledge and experience of the game.
Honestly people say really, really stupid things.
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On July 05 2010 10:16 NuKedUFirst wrote:
Hmm. They should ask BW pros for what makes a balanced / good game.
Hmm. I fear that *some* BW players are going into SC2 with too many assumptions from BW as to how the game *should feel/look like*. I am not saying that these pros are prejudiced in this way, just that "only nine" is much too low a number for statistics sake anyway and Starcraft is too complex to only have this few people thinking / influencing it.
On July 05 2010 17:35 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 17:26 Tropics wrote:On July 05 2010 17:11 maybenexttime wrote:On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity. Koreans have better mechanics AND strategy in both games. If foreigners are somehow strategically superior, how come all metagame revolutions were started by Koreans? they definitely weren't i mean they've started quite a lot but for the first month and a half or so of beta people had korea written off as a weaker server based on their replays and stuff and were using their own stuff exclusively Talking about BW. I'm pretty sure we'll see that in SC2 once the game is released.
Sure, maybe ... but for SC2 during the beta that is definetely UNTRUE and we are trying to balance SC2 and not BW.
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But do you really want chat rooms?
Eh, I guess this is good news. Nice to hear Blizzard does care about pro play balance.
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Put WhiteRa and TLO balancing it and i'll be happy.
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On July 05 2010 17:58 bokchoi wrote:It's IntoTheRainbow.. he's been playing as NCYellow and SlayersBoxer throughout beta iirc. Guess he thinks its funny to smurf with those aliases :D
Is he a Famous ICCUP player or something ? couldnt find anything about him @liquipedia or else where...
--EDIT--
Ok i r an idiot... just realised its an alias of RainBOw ... but why is he listed as Gimseongje or is it just a typo ?
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lol...What good would getting bw progamers in to balance a different game have...of course they have to be SC2 players..
Could be cool, but not gonna make a big difference imo.
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On July 05 2010 21:56 Piy wrote:
lol...What good would getting bw progamers in to balance a different game have...of course they have to be SC2 players..
Could be cool, but not gonna make a big difference imo.
After a lot of the things Blizzard says in their reasoning for patches, I think that it's huge that they're talking to real players regardless of who those players are. They've shown a certain amount of disconnect with their game. Hopefully this will help ground them.
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On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity.
I don't really see any evidence to back up this popular claim. It seems to me that after Grrrr... pretty much every major strategy advance was created by a Korean progamer. Since when have Korean progamers ever been behind the curve and stealing strategies from westerners?
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On July 05 2010 17:29 Lighioana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity. Sorry, but I believe you are wrong. Most of the gimmicks and inventive play I've seen was by watching the asian players streams. Days after a nice strategy was used on the asian servers you would see it popup on the EU/US servers. And it's logical to be so. They have more people understanding the mechanics on BW which translate quite nice in SC2. Therefore more likely to have somebody come up with an interesting strategy. I'm not saying they are smarter. I'm saying they have more having the knowledge and interest therefore the possibility increases.
I don't agree. In fact when beta came out every CowGoMoo and KingHillBilly replay was on ever asian replay site. It's because they both used different playstyles that no one else was using at the time.
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On July 05 2010 21:12 Duelist wrote:
Put WhiteRa and TLO balancing it and i'll be happy.
Good as they are I still trust a bunch of koreans to do it better. Stereotype or not.
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On July 05 2010 22:36 Attica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 17:29 Lighioana wrote:On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity. Sorry, but I believe you are wrong. Most of the gimmicks and inventive play I've seen was by watching the asian players streams. Days after a nice strategy was used on the asian servers you would see it popup on the EU/US servers. And it's logical to be so. They have more people understanding the mechanics on BW which translate quite nice in SC2. Therefore more likely to have somebody come up with an interesting strategy. I'm not saying they are smarter. I'm saying they have more having the knowledge and interest therefore the possibility increases. I don't agree. In fact when beta came out every CowGoMoo and KingHillBilly replay was on ever asian replay site. It's because they both used different playstyles that no one else was using at the time.
two people who worked for blizzard as playtesters since way before the game came out. I'm pretty sure the main reason they even played was to say "hey guys, do this, maybe you won't whine about certain imbalance then"
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On July 05 2010 10:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Also, Heosat has it correct (nope, nobody asked me /jealous).
Lol, poor FA...
I laughted a bit and now I feel a bit bad about it.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 05 2010 17:35 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 17:26 Tropics wrote:On July 05 2010 17:11 maybenexttime wrote:On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity. Koreans have better mechanics AND strategy in both games. If foreigners are somehow strategically superior, how come all metagame revolutions were started by Koreans? they definitely weren't i mean they've started quite a lot but for the first month and a half or so of beta people had korea written off as a weaker server based on their replays and stuff and were using their own stuff exclusively Talking about BW. I'm pretty sure we'll see that in SC2 once the game is released.
It took a long time before all "metagame revolutions" were coming from Korea only.
On July 05 2010 21:47 MetalSlug wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 17:58 bokchoi wrote:On July 05 2010 17:10 MyHeroNoob wrote:
Fake yellow? It's IntoTheRainbow.. he's been playing as NCYellow and SlayersBoxer throughout beta iirc. Guess he thinks its funny to smurf with those aliases :D Is he a Famous ICCUP player or something ? couldnt find anything about him @liquipedia or else where... --EDIT-- Ok i r an idiot... just realised its an alias of RainBOw ... but why is he listed as Gimseongje or is it just a typo ?
Kim Seong Je is his name.
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On July 05 2010 10:14 Anfere wrote:I was browsing PlayXp.com and found a thread about a reunion held in blizzards HQ to talk about balance. What i got from google translator is that Blizzard invited several pro gamers to help them discuss the balance of maps and match ups and the 3 races. They aim for some long term balancing process but some of the conclusions of this reunion will be implemented in the next set of patchs. The reunion had 4 parts: 1- Usage of the different units 2- Strategies 3- Maps 4- Open talk about all the other aspects. The sad part is that the people and the players attending this reunion aren't allowed to say what the players talked about and all the content of the reunion is confidential but blizzard said that they will release an official transcript of the reunion but only the positive points and the stuff that the players liked will be displayed ... Here is the list of the participating players: Zerg Kim Won-ki (oGs. Cool) Bakoesik (Gerrard.Prime) Yihyeongju (Check.Prime) Terran Gimseongje (oGs.NCYellow) Yigwanwoo (Ozil) Yijungheon (DayFly.Prime) Protoss Seogisu (oGs.sSKS) Jeongminsu (NEXGenius) Hwanggyuhun (oGs.Spunky) The interesting thing about this article is that it have a lot of pictures so we can see blizzard Reunion room, with the players talking and stuff, the projector with some maps and several stuff. You can check it here: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view.php?article_id=1980356I'm kind of disappointed that this kind of stuff is only held in Korea (for now) while there is a competitive scene in america and Europe and that our pro gamers could assist, specially that the play style of the Na/Eu community is somehow different from the play style of the korean players. The game being addressed to 3 distinct community, it is only normal to ask what's the balance problems each community face. In some way it's really great of blizzard to involve players in the process of balancing the game and working on getting it more interesting for competitive play, but i hope this kind of stuff won't be restricted only to Korea and that Eu/Na point of view will be asked for.
Probably because Asia beat Europe 10 to 5 in the 178 Asia vs EU Starleague.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125039¤tpage=73#1450
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actually i am not sure if that is good news.
it may sound good that blizzards gets external expertise. on the other hand this means blizzard is open for influence and as humans tend to favor options and such stuff they also favor people so the opinion which is proclaimed by the one being nicest to the listener counts more.
willingly or not this is a fact.
blizzard has all the data, they would be able to watch all the matches. why now risc such influence from outside?
another thing that bugs me is that i don't know even half of them. maybe they were famous in bw so?
history repeats itself constantly and if gaming history tells one thing than it is "new game, new cards, new stars"
so why ask "dinosaurs" how to style a porsche? besides these guys, if so successfull, for sure did not spent the time playing SC2. they had to practise for whatever tournament.
why not pick those really shining with the new game? which already spread their concerns?
my hope now is that blizzard did not just pick these 9 nobodys of the sc2 world (no offense here honestly i just compared your names to like TLO, artosis, white-ra... )
hopefully they really asked a whole bunch of people and even those mentioned.
another aspect that would worry me if they asked only asians is that on the asian servers people play more agressivly there is much more cheese involved so much unlikely you see tier 3 units here. when the hell are these going to get balanced out?
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On July 05 2010 17:29 NEWater wrote:
Speaking as an Asian, I'll have to say that the vast majority of us aren't the creative types. It's more likely that a small minority of the Korean players invented the new tactics, and those new tactics managed to proliferate everywhere and make the whole lot of other Asian players seem equally as creative and proficient as that small minority, because we make up for our general lack of creativity with the ability to absorb and copy new stuff very quickly. >_>
On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity.
Are you guys trolling or what? Koreans aren't creative? Go to YouTube and look up "Boxer Highlights". This guy revolutionized Terran play.
He SCV rushed [NC]Yellow on National TV in Korea - in the 2005 WCG Tournament Finals and WON. Koreans will always be the best at Starcraft. It is their national sport. No one has enough time to practice like they do. It is not a surprise that from 2000 through 2009, the WCG winners in SC:BW have all been from Korea.
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another thing that bugs me is that i don't know even half of them. maybe they were famous in bw so?
history repeats itself constantly and if gaming history tells one thing than it is "new game, new cards, new stars"
so why ask "dinosaurs" how to style a porsche? besides these guys, if so successfull, for sure did not spent the time playing SC2. they had to practise for whatever tournament.
why not pick those really shining with the new game? which already spread their concerns?
It's not because you don't know those players that they are No bodies like you are calling them.
The players invited are among the best players of their representative race worldwide, Names like tester or cool aren't nobodies, you are just ignorant. So no they didn't pick some clueless idiots to seek their advise, they picked the best ''current'' SC2 korean players that are members of the ''current'' 2 top Korean sc2 teams. So those people know what they are talking about, even though you don't know them.
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On July 06 2010 07:55 wsfosho wrote:
Are you guys trolling or what? Koreans aren't creative? Go to YouTube and look up "Boxer Highlights". This guy revolutionized Terran play.
He SCV rushed [NC]Yellow on National TV in Korea - in the 2005 WCG Tournament Finals and WON. Koreans will always be the best at Starcraft. It is their national sport. No one has enough time to practice like they do. It is not a surprise that from 2000 through 2009, the WCG winners in SC:BW have all been from Korea.
SC2 however is not their national sport and so until that happens, the US and EU players will be around the same level as the KR/Asia players.
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I cant believe people are whining about Blizzard asking some skilled Korean players what they think about the game because they didnt ask white people. There are many possible reasons why Blizzard hasnt done this yet for Europe or US servers and none of them have anything to do with racial/geographical bias.
Besides, even if Blizzard made a HORRIBLE mistake in picking these particular players and everyone disagreed with them it would still only be about the thousandth HORRIBLE mistake Blizzard has supposedly made while developing SC2 according to the fans, and yet the game ended up great.
I dont think that Koreans are biologically superior at RTS games. But, if i had to bet like 10 thousand bucks or whatever on which server will eventually be the toughest to get wins, id not hesitate at all to bet on Asia.
One last thing, im white as hell, and located in the US. And there is nothing i love more than when Korean players completely dominate white people at SC. I dont know why, its just the most hilarious thing in the world to me. Like when they were having those showmatches on Artosis site and practically all US/EU players were getting raped hard and looking like noobs, i was laughing inside. Not because i think the US/EU players suck. They are probably extremely talented players. I just love an impossible final boss that never loses.
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wow im happy to hear this
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lol @ north americans delusional enough to think that there isnt outlying factor hindering the scene. Sorry to break dreams but there is such thing called talent, which if you arent a top player in your respective game, you most likely dont have it to begin with. If you do have talent, then you come into the realization that not many other North Americans do, so very often you wont find competent training partners to help you advance to a top tier of competition, thus you search for koreans or europeans, furthering hurting the scene since there is less inter-server practice as a whole. Then you bring into realization that its much cheaper to live in a lot of countries in europe and asia compared to north america, so they are able to practice more since less obligation to outside responsibilities. Video games are also played prominently by University and Highschool Students, in north america it is not the norm to have no social life during this time, in fact it is part of our culture that this is the time we should be having the most fun, compared to Korea where more often than not, students do not become socially active until after they have finished university, and particularly do not date girls an over extensive amount.
So ya, pretty much if you plan to become the best RTS player ever, or want to try to discredit those who are the best, just realize that they have something you dont have, Talent, and the opportunity to compete against talented players.
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can anyone translate this? I'd be curious to see what they have to say since they're clearly doing some analysis on the maps (sorry if this has been asked or posted already)
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People who are complaining about this are really not thinking straight. These are all very well known players that have proven themselves worthy against the whole world on multiple occasions. Blizzard taking opinions from most of the highest skilled players is great, it can only help.
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The food looks great.
Would love to learn to read Korean though :\.
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On July 06 2010 09:00 Holcan wrote:
...Then you bring into realization that its much cheaper to live in a lot of countries in europe and asia compared to north america, so they are able to practice more since less obligation to outside responsibilitiess.
lolz, has it ever crossed your mind that in these countries they also make "less" money due to the "cheap" prices for living?
Do you really think people in EU and Asia has less obligations to outside responsibilitiess?
This is the most stupid thing I have ever heard.
Anyways; I think blizzard it taking step in the right direction by doing this
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Not the people i expect but still nice move Blizzard.
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On July 06 2010 07:55 wsfosho wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 17:29 NEWater wrote:
Speaking as an Asian, I'll have to say that the vast majority of us aren't the creative types. It's more likely that a small minority of the Korean players invented the new tactics, and those new tactics managed to proliferate everywhere and make the whole lot of other Asian players seem equally as creative and proficient as that small minority, because we make up for our general lack of creativity with the ability to absorb and copy new stuff very quickly. >_> Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 16:49 eugen1225 wrote:It's funny how they focus on Asian players to balance the game, when it's a fact (in every blizzard game SC,WC3 and now SC2) that Koreans tended to be more mechanical and less creative, when Europeans are the exact opposite. This is most evident in SC1, and it was a case in wc3. Imagine 2 approaches to a loss: 1) If i lose its because my execution wasn't perfect, i must practice more my execution, and only when I peak at this and still lose will I start considering a strategy adjustment. (Korean mindset) 2)If I lose it's probably because of my strategy and inefficiency, i should 1st look into the strategy and look for windows to exploit, and new unit combo's rather than admitting faulty mechanics, only when 'on paper' i have the seemingly 'perfect' strategy will I focus on improving my execution of that strategy. (Europe mindset) This is reflected in the play styles i feel, and it is my opinion that balance-wise Europeans would be better at the job of balancing, because they are more keen to finding exploits, which is more important in the first stages of balance (and lets face it, we are still in that stage). The 'meticulous mechanics' approach is better in the latter stages of balancing. Point: Give top Euro players this opportunity. Are you guys trolling or what? Koreans aren't creative? Go to YouTube and look up "Boxer Highlights". This guy revolutionized Terran play. He SCV rushed [NC]Yellow on National TV in Korea - in the 2005 WCG Tournament Finals and WON. Koreans will always be the best at Starcraft. It is their national sport. No one has enough time to practice like they do. It is not a surprise that from 2000 through 2009, the WCG winners in SC:BW have all been from Korea.
You're talking about that one guy, dude, and I'd acknowledge him to be one of the small minority of really talented Korean players. I won't ever deny that.
The comparison between Asian and western gamers has already been established within the games industry and is a widely-accepted observation. Westerners as a rule of thumb would find open world games like GTA or Fallout to be incredible, because it gives them a ton of freedom to fool around with things and be creative with what they have. Asians will find themselves lost in such an environment. However, if you give them a straightforward corridor to follow, they will be very proficient at figuring out dozens of combos to to own that corridor. A prime example of that Asian mindset will be the (very Asian) Final Fantasy series of games, which many western RPG purists will protest against the classification that it's a "RPG" to begin with because of its very constrained nature in terms of plot and character setup.
I'm not really talking about the pro-gamers here only, but the entire playerbase in general.
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Forum posting cherry.
Popped.
INTRODUCTION
*original text in spoilers.
+ Show Spoiler +
오늘, 블리자드 코리아 사무실에 갔다 왔습니다.
어제 갑작스럽게 블코에서 연락이 오더군요.
스타크래프트2 밸런스 간담회를 할 예정인데,
간단한 취재를 할 생각 있으면 오셔도 된다고...
하루 전날 연락하는 무시무시한 센스 덕분에
2g 고민하다가 여차저차 다녀왔습니다.
Yesterday, Blizzard Korea contacted me about attending a Starcraft 2 Balance Meeting. They were wondering if I wanted inside information. They told me one day in advance.
+ Show Spoiler +오후 3시부터 6시까지 간담회 시간으로 예정된 상황이었고,
저는 2시 45분쯤 블코 사무실에 도착했습니다.
1등! 아무도 없ㅋ음ㅋ
하지만, 알고보니 2등이었다는거... (중요한건 아니지만요 ㅡ..ㅡ)
... no one was there.
Actually, I was second. (not that this is important -_-)
+ Show Spoiler +블코 사무실은 보안 때문에
이러한 회의실 이외에는 출입이 안됩니다.
(회의실 마저도 보안키가 없으면 출입이 안되더군요. 화장실 다녀오면 회의실 안에서 문을 열어줘야 했음)
그래서 블코 사무실 구경은 안되고-..-a
회의실을 살펴봤습니다.
블리자드와 관련된 상품들을 전시해 놓았습니다.
본사에 있는 박물관의 미니 버전을 보는 듯 한 느낌.
Because of Blizzard Korea's security, I wasnt allowed to tour around the facilities. I was only allowed in our conference room. (There seemed to be key FOB security for every single room. When I left the room to go to the washroom, I had to be let in from someone inside.)
I couldnt explore the main office, but I examined the conference room. It looked as if it was a freaking miniature museum.
+ Show Spoiler +
코리안 타임이 적용되어 간담회는 오후 3시 30분 부터 시작되었습니다.
오늘 간담회는 4가지 주제로 고수 게이머들의 심도 있는 토론이 진행되었습니다.라고 쓰고 징징거렸다고 읽는다.
농담이고요 ㅎㅎ 고수 게이머들 답게 단순한 징징 보다는 상대 종족도 함께 배려하고 고민하면서 밸런스에 대한 토론을 이끌어 갔습니다. 단순히 자기의 종족만 좋아진다면 게임의 재미가 없어지기 때문에 합리적인 수준에서 상호 토론이 진행되었습니다. 만약 상대방의 의견에 동의하지 못한다고 생각하면 바로 그 자리에서 반론을 제기하면서 밸런스 토론이 진행되었습니다.
Because of Korean-Time, the actually meeting started 30 minutes late. Today's discussion was into four different sections, as the pro-gamers bitched and whined about the changes.
Just kidding, lol. The pro-gamers acted with class and respect for one another as they discussed on the current issues of the game. Simply because if the class they played became too good compared to the other races, the game wouldn't be as fun and satisfying, they discussed balance changes in respect to all different matchups. If one didn't agree with the current matter being discussed, they were sure to provide a knowledgeable counter-argument.
+ Show Spoiler +오늘 밸런스 토론의 구체적인 내용은 비공개 사항이라 밝힐 수는 없습니다.
(뭐야, 이러면 무슨 기사를 쓰라는거야... 왜 불렀어?!
는 훼이크고 이미 비공개라고 전날 밝혔음. 그냥 현장 스케치 겸 다녀왔습니다)
Today's balance discussion details remains confidential.
+ Show Spoiler +
이번 토론회는 블리자드 본사의 밸런스 팀에서 게임의 밸런스적인 완성도를 높이기 위해 한국 게이머들의 피드백을 받고 싶어 추진된 간담회였습니다. 오늘 간담회를 진행하기에 앞서서 사전에 참석 게이머 분들께 각 종족별 밸런스에 대한 설문조사를 진행하였고, 오늘은 서로 함께 모인 자리에서 설문조사 내용을 참고하면서 서로의 의견을 교환하는 시간을 가졌습니다.
오늘 토론의 내용은 취합되어 블리자드 본사에 전달될 예정이라고 합니다. 하지만, 이번 밸런스 토론의 내용이 즉각적으로 다음 패치에 반영되지는 않을 것 이라고 합니다. 장기적인 관점에서 전략성을 높일 수 있도록 향후 패치에 반영될 예정이라고 합니다.
블리자드 관계자는 "자신의 주 종족 대표로 참석한 자리이지만, 각 종족의 주관적인 관점 보다는 객관적으로 평가하여 솔직하게 토론을 진행해 달라"고 사전에 요청도 했습니다.
This meeting was for the Blizzard balance teams' way of improving balance: to receive important feedback from the top ranked players of the Korean Beta servers. The gamers filled out surveys prior to the meeting. The results of the surveys were discussed.
The results of the meeting is to be condensed and released by Blizzard themselves. However, this meetings results will not affect Patch 16. They said they are thinking long-term changes. **translators note: maybe these changes will happen in later expansions? Perhaps they discussed new units? I derno[
Blizzard asked the gamers to not only think about balance suggestions to the players' respective races, but rather to the triune balance of the game.
THE IMPORTANT PART (TLDR)
+ Show Spoiler +
1. 매치업별 유닛 활용도
TvT, TvZ, TvP, ZvZ, ZvP, PvP
각 종족전 별로 어떠한 유닛이 제대로 활용되고 있지 않은지에 대한 토론이 진행되었습니다.
왜 이 유닛은 게임에서 사용되고 있지 않은지에 대한 토론이 주를 이루었습니다.
다양한 전략과 유닛 조합을 추구해야하는데, 유닛을 제대로 활용하지 못하도록 하는 요소가 무엇인지를
직접적으로 게이머분들께 물었고 그에 대한 토론이 진행되었습니다.
다양한 유닛들에 대한 토론이 즐거운 분위기 속에서 진행되었습니다.
토론 도중 황규훈(oGs.Spunky) 선수는 "EMP 맞은 모선은 떠다니는 구름"이라고 말해 웃음을 자아냈습니다.
1. Unit Usage Regarding Different Match-ups.
TvT, TvZ, TvP, ZvZ, ZvP, PvP
We discussed WHICH units were being used properly and regularly first. We discussed why certain units were not being utilized often. Blizzard asked for input on why unique and new unit compositions werent being utilized by the masses of players.
Various units were discussed in a fun way. During one of the talks, oGs.Spunky said "An EMP'd Mothership is a drifting cloud" and brought laughter to the room.
They discussed this for one hour.
+ Show Spoiler +2. 매치업별 전략
TvT, TvZ, TvP, ZvZ, ZvP, PvP
1번 토론 주제와 비슷한 부분인데, 전략의 다양성에 대한 토론이 진행되었습니다.
각 종족전 별 전략적 요소에 대한 이야기가 진행되었습니다.
특히, PvP 전은 보는 사람도 재미 없지만, 하는 사람도 재미 없다고 평가되어 밸런스 변화가 시급해 보였습니다.
게임을 더욱 재미있게 즐기고 보는 사람도 즐거울 수 있도록 전략적 다양성을 개선되도록 여러 의견들이 나왔습니다.
2. Strategies of Match-ups.
TvT, TvZ, TvP, ZvZ, ZvP, PvP
Similar to the first topic, we discussed the variety of strategies used in the Beta. Each race's representatives brought important points on Zerg, Protoss and Terran strategies.
In particular, PvP was brought to light, they agreed that this matchup was not only boring to watch, but boring to play as well. It seemed that urgent balance tweaks and changes were needed for this match-up.
*translators note YAY
Many ideas and opinions were raised to bring a better game to play, and to spectate.
+ Show Spoiler +3. 지도 선호도
각각의 베타 래더 지도를 보고, 지도의 문제점 지적과 전략적 장애 요소 파악, 개선점 의견 개진 등
지도에 관련된 전반적인 토론이 진행되었습니다.
이형주(Check.Prime) 선수는 테란이 유리한 지도가 나오자 장난삼아 "이 맵 삭제해요" 라며 게임에 필요 없는 지도라고 주장했습니다. ㅎㅎ
또, 대부분 선수들은 <사막 오아시스> 지도가 나오자, 이구동성으로 맵 삭제를 요구해 날빌 오아시스의 명성을 오프라인에서도 다시 한 번 확인시켜줬습니다. 그래도 날빌 오아시스의 개선점을 이야기하면서 게임을 더욱 재미있게 만들 수 있도록 다양한 의견을 개진하였습니다.
3. Map Preference
They looked at all the Beta maps, and sought to find the issues, strategic imbalances. Improvement suggestions were also brought up.
Check.Prime joked "Um. Delete this map." when a terran-favored map was brought to light.
Also, most of the pro-gamers reacted to Desert Oasis the same way. In one voice, they asked for deletion of the map. Still, they discussed improvement choices to make the map fun and balanced to play.
+ Show Spoiler +
4. 기타 토론주제
이 밖에도 게임을 플레이하면서 불편했던 점이나 오늘 간담회에서 말하지 못했던 내용에 대해 자유롭게 이야기하는 시간도 잠시 가졌습니다.
We also had to discuss other misc. imbalances and expressed complaints of the game.
+ Show Spoiler +**translators note: perhaps BNET2.0? UI? Region lock?
And the rest is about them going to a seafood restaurant (buffet style?) all together, with Blizzard paying for the food 
the Prime clan ate alot, apparently.
Also, the pro-gamers that came a long way to come to the meeting expressed their disappointment for having to pay for the commute/transit fees themselves. SPOILED!
Was fun translating.
Enjoy,
gimjon
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51449 Posts
On July 06 2010 07:55 wsfosho wrote:
He SCV rushed [NC]Yellow on National TV in Korea - in the 2005 WCG Tournament Finals and WON. Koreans will always be the best at Starcraft. It is their national sport. No one has enough time to practice like they do. It is not a surprise that from 2000 through 2009, the WCG winners in SC:BW have all been from Korea.
i don't know where to start how wrong this is.
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That's a pretty frikin' amazing translation, jongim. Thanks.
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Nice translation. I'm so glad that desert oasis got grilled...also mothership haha.
That food looks good.
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Desert Oasis is the best spectator map in Beta. Maps that exciting better not get axed for generic macro crap right at release, at least with BW it took a while for that to happen.
This is e-sports. Fans want excitement. Doesn't matter if the map is inconvenient of you have to think out of the box, deal with it. Stork had to.
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Oh my, thanks a ton Jongim!
Please stick around, having translations from a much more SC filled media is amazing!
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thanks jongim for the translation.
@Anfere maybe i am ignorant but maybe regarding SC2 i just didn't hear these names.
I know some of the names being big with SC but SC and SC2 are two different games. and SC2 has it's own stars already and so i wondered why those names were not on the list.
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Can't wait to see what gets implemented in the next patch once the Beta comes back up. This meeting should have been very productive. And from the pictures, it looks like they were talking about map balance with Scrap Station and others.
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On July 06 2010 02:58 Drakkart wrote:
actually i am not sure if that is good news.
it may sound good that blizzards gets external expertise. on the other hand this means blizzard is open for influence and as humans tend to favor options and such stuff they also favor people so the opinion which is proclaimed by the one being nicest to the listener counts more.
willingly or not this is a fact.
blizzard has all the data, they would be able to watch all the matches. why now risc such influence from outside?
another thing that bugs me is that i don't know even half of them. maybe they were famous in bw so?
history repeats itself constantly and if gaming history tells one thing than it is "new game, new cards, new stars"
so why ask "dinosaurs" how to style a porsche? besides these guys, if so successfull, for sure did not spent the time playing SC2. they had to practise for whatever tournament.
why not pick those really shining with the new game? which already spread their concerns?
my hope now is that blizzard did not just pick these 9 nobodys of the sc2 world (no offense here honestly i just compared your names to like TLO, artosis, white-ra... )
hopefully they really asked a whole bunch of people and even those mentioned.
another aspect that would worry me if they asked only asians is that on the asian servers people play more agressivly there is much more cheese involved so much unlikely you see tier 3 units here. when the hell are these going to get balanced out?
I only signed up to TL and even I know who most of them are. Seriously, pro-gaming exists outside of the HDH invitational. It also bothers me that it seems like you haven't really been reading this thread, since A) the "dinosaurs" thing is actually the complete opposite of what's going on (there were a couple people in the beginning pages complaining that there WEREN'T BW pros in there, since the selected ARE SC2 pros), and B) "only asians" asked - people already noted that Western gamers were asked in the first couple of pages.
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great translation thx, hope mothership gets removed or sth :C
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Its great to see blizz asking more progamers for input, it will be interesting to see what gets implemented in phase 2.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 06 2010 02:58 Drakkart wrote:
actually i am not sure if that is good news.
it may sound good that blizzards gets external expertise. on the other hand this means blizzard is open for influence and as humans tend to favor options and such stuff they also favor people so the opinion which is proclaimed by the one being nicest to the listener counts more.
willingly or not this is a fact.
blizzard has all the data, they would be able to watch all the matches. why now risc such influence from outside?
another thing that bugs me is that i don't know even half of them. maybe they were famous in bw so?
history repeats itself constantly and if gaming history tells one thing than it is "new game, new cards, new stars"
so why ask "dinosaurs" how to style a porsche? besides these guys, if so successfull, for sure did not spent the time playing SC2. they had to practise for whatever tournament.
why not pick those really shining with the new game? which already spread their concerns?
my hope now is that blizzard did not just pick these 9 nobodys of the sc2 world (no offense here honestly i just compared your names to like TLO, artosis, white-ra... )
hopefully they really asked a whole bunch of people and even those mentioned.
another aspect that would worry me if they asked only asians is that on the asian servers people play more agressivly there is much more cheese involved so much unlikely you see tier 3 units here. when the hell are these going to get balanced out?
Just because you don't know them doesn't make them nobodies. Also, lots of non-koreans were asked as well, they just haven't told anyone because they were asked not to.
Zerg
Kim Won-ki (oGs. Cool)
Bakoesik (Gerrard.Prime)
Yihyeongju (Check.Prime)
Cool is a SC Progamer that retired some years ago. Considered one of the best players on Asia in SC2. You may know him as Fruittrader.
Gerrard is an ex-WC3 pro. He played in the EU vs Asia matches and won both his games (3-2 vs both Haypro and Nazgul iirc).
Check is one of the most old school WC3 pros in the world - he's been at the top level since the original game was released more or less. Also one of the best Zergs on Asia during the beta. Lost 2-3 to Nazgul in the Eu vs Asia games, I don't remember how his other match went. Has several high placements in tournaments.
Terran
Gimseongje (oGs.NCYellow)
Yigwanwoo (Ozil)
Yijungheon (DayFly.Prime)
Old school SC pro Intotherainbow, one of the better Terrans on Asia, lots of tournament appearances. Dunno Asian scene enough to tell you what he's won.
I have no idea who Ozil is, might have a different aka.
DayFly is a legendary WC3 player, and has done fairly well in SC2 as well. Beat Hasuobs 3-1 in the EU vs Asia matches I believe.
Protoss
Seogisu (oGs.sSKS)
Jeongminsu (NEXGenius)
Hwanggyuhun (oGs.Spunky)
Long time SC1 pro and one of the very best players on Asia in SC2. Won one of the first big LANs (the PGR21 LAN I think? Or was it PlayXP hm...), won TL Altitude Invitational.
Not sure who Genius is.
Spunky is a really, really, really old school SC1 pro and has been one of the top ranked protoss players on Asia throughout the beta.
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On July 05 2010 10:51 jamesr12 wrote:
I have heard of all these people except:
Yigwanwoo (Ozil)
Yijungheon (DayFly.Prime)
DayFly is a legendary Wc3 player, one of the best Orc players of all time. I can imagine his skill transferring really well to SC2.
e: fb;
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France1919 Posts
Nice insight Jinro, thx.
Anyone know where i can find replays of oGs.Cool ?
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Thats awesome to hear, let's see if they can do something with the info.
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On July 05 2010 10:51 jamesr12 wrote:
I have heard of all these people except:
Yigwanwoo (Ozil)
Yijungheon (DayFly.Prime)
i don't know Ozil either but DayFly is a legend in wc3, he was the only orc player back then when this race was really really weak in the last days of roc, around 2003, i remember seeing him at eswc2003 he was the only orc after the groupstage, and he was the only orc playing at pro level. He was the one.
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great move by blizzard, this could have been a little too early tho seeing how most progamers are actually not so accurate about the game :d
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asian players have a more professional attitude in general.
i don't want blizzard to give europe/us a noob version of the game, so yes i'll let the koreans have a say in balance ahead of unprofessional whiners like idra.
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I don't think being good at the game is the one and only factor which helps the most at balancing a game. IMO Blizzard shouldn't just blindly listen to this people, i mean they're best of the best but can they really develop a game ? :"
It's always nice to ask for player input, but i think a lot of this players will be biased.
I hope they help Blizzard as much as they can though ^_^.
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I guess the names were decided by the ladder rankings in part? Tester didn't really play enough (ever) to get really high on the ladder, but NEXGenius was top of the ladder for a long period of time. NCYellow and I think Ozil (I think?) were also top 5 ELO.
I'm surprised PvP received the most hate out of all of the match ups. It was at least before the tank nerf my favorite to watch of the three mirror match ups.
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On July 05 2010 17:29 NEWater wrote:
Speaking as an Asian, I'll have to say that the vast majority of us aren't the creative types. It's more likely that a small minority of the Korean players invented the new tactics, and those new tactics managed to proliferate everywhere and make the whole lot of other Asian players seem equally as creative and proficient as that small minority, because we make up for our general lack of creativity with the ability to absorb and copy new stuff very quickly. >_>
Speak for yourself please. People like you make all westerners think of Asians as mindless automatons.
And why is it that every single thread that even mentions the word korean degenerates into a discussion about whether korea will be the best? Why not just wait and see before making your completely unfounded predictions?
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On July 05 2010 10:16 NuKedUFirst wrote:Hmm. They should ask BW pros for what makes a balanced / good game. But all listed were BW players and now are Sc2 players. Where's Maka
I'm pretty sure Check was a WarCraft 3 player before
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Wow Thanks for the translation!!!
"An EMP'd Mothership is a drifting cloud"
Rofl.
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On July 07 2010 05:56 Drakan wrote:
Wow Thanks for the translation!!!
"An EMP'd Mothership is a drifting cloud"
Rofl.
Haha, the mothership would be a very shiny golden drifting cloud =D
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I feel a sudden craving for sushi..
This is a good sign. They have my vote of confidence once again
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EPT
