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On June 29 2010 03:01 kAra wrote:
where did u got the idea from that i care for your points, i told you already i suspect you of having no idea what your talking about at all
i just give you a chance to prove me wrong
I think from my points, many people would know that I have a very good idea about what I am saying. You only think I don't because you are on the other end of my argument.
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I think resource trading is fine.
I think shared control at all levels is nearly fine.
I think that shared base maps should disappear. Going back to the 2v2 Europe vs US showmatch, look what the Liquid team was able to do. TLO effectively shielded Jinro from all attacks, using the minerals from mules to just shove massive amounts of cash into a vastly superior and larger army than the US team could muster.
Why? The army never left home. Warpgate production outpaced both opponents.
On a more traditional (random spawn, no shared base) 2v2 map, that couldn't be the case. TLO would not be fed because Jinro would have had to defend his own base. Not to say that he couldn't kick a few minerals to TLO here and there, but there'd be no way that that strategy would be nearly as effective.
Great points by DeA, and wonderful contributions and insight from some SC:BW veterans like kAra.
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On June 29 2010 02:47 cubert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2010 02:29 DanielD wrote:
Something I don't understand is how 1race army comp could possibly be as cost-effective than 2race army comp, and this is why I don't see the problem with feeding For example, we have never lost PZvsPZ on twilight when we used fotons on ramp and zerg have got +2 expos. All i do as protoss is mass probes and fotons. When mutas ready we have unbeatable air army, have map control and I get yellow exp and zerg +2 exps near our choke and don't let opponents leave their base. Later I can make colosses when zerg reached maximum limit, but the game is over before that. It's too boring strategy, but for the win we must use it. Does it need fantasy or teamplay? Of course not.
Thanks for responding but you didn't show how mass muta is more effective than, say, muta/phenoix. The only cost difference is the teching that has to happen from both players, but the benefit of teching once the game progresses could easily outweigh the cost.
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Russian Federation94 Posts
Believe me that fenix/muta can do nothing against that strategy. Fenix are good when there is 5-10 mutals, but 30+ mutas will just rape everything, you can't micro them with fenix. The big problem for 2x tech is a timing. When they reach army to leave there base it will be already gg by macro.
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I'm pretty sure blizzard wants 2v2 to be a much more "casual" -.-' bracket. The problems with free resource trading are obvious but only matter if there is realy competitive play. If you want to play a competitive 2v2 match, do it off ladder and agree to no resource trading.
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Do it off ladder? Pretty much ruins the whole point of ladder if its intended for more "casual" play which it seems it is  . Anyways, good to see some real 2x2 players replying a bit more.
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On June 29 2010 04:27 cubert wrote:
Believe me that fenix/muta can do nothing against that strategy. Fenix are good when there is 5-10 mutals, but 30+ mutas will just rape everything, you can't micro them with fenix. The big problem for 2x tech is a timing. When they reach army to leave there base it will be already gg by macro.
This still doesn't make sense.
First of all, I'm not talking about phoenix/muta as a counter, I'm asking you why having mass muta is better than having phenoix and muta, the only additional cost is the 300 min for two starports.
Secondly, all it takes is someone to not be an idiot, scout you and see a spire morphing, a billion larvae, and no tech or army from the toss, and they make thors or sentry/archon or more queens and hydra and spores etc etc etc. I understand that there is a timing, but it goes both ways as far as feeding goes, and so I don't see how this is a problem unless it goes unscouted.
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After reading this this stuff it's really hard for me to pick a side.
SC:BW has its disadvantages in 2v2 and so does SC2.
I like the idea of having shared bases so that you can defend your ally early on if hey are in trouble. I don't like how one player can tech and the other defend him. In BW if you get attacked your ally will most of the time laugh in your face or something. They usually counter-attack instead of defending you (not sure which is a better idea).
I think feeding is a really cheesy way of playing SC2.
That I am sure of.
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Russian Federation94 Posts
It's not only 300 minerals for starport. Gas is most important here. You can count how much gas you spend for tech and upgrades. And you are as protoss can't make good counter units to muta on this gas.
We use it only for PZ vs PZ, so no thors. Phoenix/muta or archons just doesn't counter mass muta from 8 gases. Phoenixes can counter muta in 1x1 because of micro, mutas don't attack them. You won't be able to micro against mutas from 8+ gases and don't have a chance to win the battle. With archons, hydras and etc you will sit on your base too. Photons and spores are nothing against mass mutas. You will just lose your main and natural and won't kill your opponents. We have played much games with this bo on the top euro 2x2 ladder and nobody were even close to win with another strategy. We have some ideas how to counter that, but not sure it will work. For now this strategy is almost unbeatable.
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On June 29 2010 07:30 DanielD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2010 04:27 cubert wrote:
Believe me that fenix/muta can do nothing against that strategy. Fenix are good when there is 5-10 mutals, but 30+ mutas will just rape everything, you can't micro them with fenix. The big problem for 2x tech is a timing. When they reach army to leave there base it will be already gg by macro. This still doesn't make sense. First of all, I'm not talking about phoenix/muta as a counter, I'm asking you why having mass muta is better than having phenoix and muta, the only additional cost is the 300 min for two starports. Secondly, all it takes is someone to not be an idiot, scout you and see a spire morphing, a billion larvae, and no tech or army from the toss, and they make thors or sentry/archon or more queens and hydra and spores etc etc etc. I understand that there is a timing, but it goes both ways as far as feeding goes, and so I don't see how this is a problem unless it goes unscouted.
As cubert said, Phoenix's are only really viable as a counter in small numbers where you can utilize the move-fire micro mechanic , if you have 30 phoenix vs 30 muta, try microing all of those units.
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EPT
