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DeA Analyzes 2v2, SC and SC2 - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Patches
Profile Joined May 2010
United States43 Posts
June 28 2010 03:00 GMT
#41
I was in a 2v2 game about to push and my teammate was like "i gave you control of my units so we can go in at the same time".. I was like uhhh i dont think thats possible dude.. lol .. It was weird hitting someone with 2 different races.
Kyouya
Profile Joined January 2008
Mexico318 Posts
June 28 2010 03:12 GMT
#42
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 28 2010 10:02 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2010 06:03 Xeris wrote:
This article was written by Fnatic.Moutas, better known as DeA, one of the top 2v2 players in the BW scene. He compares 2v2 in SC2 and SC!

The article can be found here:




Brood war player complaining about all the changes in SC2? Shocker...

Show nested quote +


a) Shared Control



Your argument on sharing unit control makes me doubt that you have even played high level SC2 2v2... If you are playing at a level where both players don't need to pull their weight, then you are not playing at the high level. Sorry, but in order to be a high level team, both players NEED to be able to handle themselves. You can hold your partners hand way up into Diamond, but once you begin to play the advanced teams, your partner needs to take his own steps, or you will both fall flat on your face.
Your entire argument revolves around a team that has one good player and one bad player. But sorry, that team will never make the competitive 2v2 team, so it is irrelevant to the argument. I can assure you that a team with 2 good players will DESTROY a team with 1 great player and 1 bad player.

Show nested quote +
b) Shared Resources


Sharing resources opens up worlds of options that should ALL be available. The most MAJOR resource sharing strategies tend to be all-in strategies that can fall apart if performed poorly, and once scouted can be demolished easily. There are trickier ones, but they are all handled with proper play.
Resource sharing allows for tactics like quick feed techs, defense/offense plays, but also it allows a team to not be destroyed by a stupid lucky play that are HUGELY common in 2v2 (for example: 2 Dropships drop Marauders, stim and blow up the main Nexus at 385 minerals. That person is now effectively dead for the rest of the game, and punished for keeping his minerals low).
Resource sharing is a wonderful addition, opening up worlds of options for the play. You complain about how there was more variety in SC:BW 2v2 play, then complain about a function that opens up literally hundreds of options for a team.
Show nested quote +

c) Spawning Positions


Uh... are you serious? You don't like how you spawn together with your teammate? Now, I don't know how the SC:BW scene was played, but in all honesty, this is a pretty damn essential part of 2v2 now. Cross positional spawning would be an absolute disaster and on a map like Lost Temple would devolve into 2 1v1s played on the same map (since your enemy is closer to you than your ally). It would be so easy to set up a simple contain between one player and cut off the other. This was why Kulas Ravine was quickly removed from the 2v2 Ladder... because it was far too easy to abuse the distances between players. If you start with a teammate, the game should be about your team.


I am sorry, sir, but I disagree with most of your article. It seems to me that you are very attached to the BW scene and are simply resistant to any change. SC2 seems to be attempting to make 2v2 an actual game mode... rather than just throwing 4 players on a map and to see what happens. Blizzard understands that 2v2 plays differently than 1v1, and so they make maps that are designed to showcase and emphasize the different styles. I very much enjoy the SC2 2v2 scene as it has evolved. It is the future.

The US vs EU showmatch today helped prove a theory of mine. 1v1 players do not play 2v2 like 2v2 players play 2v2. I would like to see these 1v1 pros fight against a pro 2v2 team. I have a feeling they would get destroyed. I was able to point out many many flaws in their builds that a solid high level 2v2 team would not have made or would have exploited. The games (1v1 and 2v2) play so differently that they do not translate towards each other very well. Exclusive High Level 1v1 players will not do very well in the High Level 2v2 scene, and vice versa, and this is how it should stay.


THIS. It's a whole new game if he don't like it, fine, stick with bw and everyone is happy
Strike First, Strike Hard, Show No Mercy.
cubert
Profile Joined June 2010
Russian Federation94 Posts
June 28 2010 08:14 GMT
#43
Strategies with sharing all resourses (except for workers and cc) were made from the start of beta, especially on twilight fortress. And it's not allin strategies, it's even more safe than standart. I agree that money for tech or rebuild isn't bad idea, but giving all resourses kills teamplay in some games. I say it not because have a problem with balance or losing to such strategies, we use it too. But the game going boring, when all we do is mass probes + mass drones + mass mass mutas and lings on free minerals, the game of one player.
kAra
Profile Joined September 2004
Germany1387 Posts
June 28 2010 09:08 GMT
#44
this topic turned into something sad ; (
if u all think close starting positions are a good thing go play play some north vs south, so boring

its just like cubert said, the current maps and the current options with sharing/close pos start makes 2x2 alot worse than it should be, newbs will understand this in some months also

and i really love it like some guys pop up in this thread i never saw before and talk so much bullshit
/hi smarty, i doubt u know anything about 2x2 at all : )
mada mada dane
FortuneSyn
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1826 Posts
June 28 2010 09:16 GMT
#45
It's really exhausting to browse these forums and see endless topics and articles complaining and whining.

All I read was the conclusion. All it really says is "2v2 in sc2 sucks because of shared control, because there is more ways to communicate, and because there is no longer random spawn positions".

Now I'm not a 2v2 pro or anything, but jesus christ those arguments are fucking pathetic, and you dont really have to be a pro to realize that.
kAra
Profile Joined September 2004
Germany1387 Posts
June 28 2010 09:19 GMT
#46
On June 28 2010 18:16 FortuneSyn wrote:
It's really exhausting to browse these forums and see endless topics and articles complaining and whining.

All I read was the conclusion. All it really says is "2v2 in sc2 sucks because of shared control, because there is more ways to communicate, and because there is no longer random spawn positions".

Now I'm not a 2v2 pro or anything, but jesus christ those arguments are fucking pathetic, and you dont really have to be a pro to realize that.


i think u didnt understand, this topic is not for casual gamers like you, which just cant understand where to such balance changes lead : (
mada mada dane
FortuneSyn
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1826 Posts
June 28 2010 09:36 GMT
#47
On June 28 2010 18:19 kAra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2010 18:16 FortuneSyn wrote:
It's really exhausting to browse these forums and see endless topics and articles complaining and whining.

All I read was the conclusion. All it really says is "2v2 in sc2 sucks because of shared control, because there is more ways to communicate, and because there is no longer random spawn positions".

Now I'm not a 2v2 pro or anything, but jesus christ those arguments are fucking pathetic, and you dont really have to be a pro to realize that.


i think u didnt understand, this topic is not for casual gamers like you, which just cant understand where to such balance changes lead : (


Nah man it doesn't take a boss to realize his points are pretty weak.

Removing random spawn positions makes it much easier for blizzard to balance 2v2.

a lot of creativity and coordination is needed to master the advantages of having shared control and shared resources. That's enough for me to suspect that he is just like those that were crying MBS sucks for nothing.

PhiliBiRD
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2643 Posts
June 28 2010 09:39 GMT
#48
i see no problem with shared resources or control, they even dont let u share resources for 5 minutes to avoid abusing.

its great to me
kAra
Profile Joined September 2004
Germany1387 Posts
June 28 2010 09:43 GMT
#49
removing random spawn positons is one of the more annoying things , and how u think u can judge if his points are weak or not ? u played 2x2 on high lvl ? stop seeking attention in this topic when u have no business here
mada mada dane
FortuneSyn
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1826 Posts
June 28 2010 10:00 GMT
#50
On June 28 2010 18:43 kAra wrote:
removing random spawn positons is one of the more annoying things , and how u think u can judge if his points are weak or not ? u played 2x2 on high lvl ? stop seeking attention in this topic when u have no business here


Lol who the fuck are you man? You are a nobody, so don't tell me where I should seek my business. If you think my arguments are invalid, then go ahead and argue why.
kAra
Profile Joined September 2004
Germany1387 Posts
June 28 2010 10:05 GMT
#51
i was waiting for that question : ) im one of the few (i doubt there were more than 10 players in sc1) who got payed for playing 2x2 for over 2years, so if u dont know who i am, im really curious what ur doing in this topic with all your uber knowledge
mada mada dane
Mentos
Profile Joined August 2003
United Kingdom203 Posts
June 28 2010 10:06 GMT
#52
The US vs EU showmatch today helped prove a theory of mine. 1v1 players do not play 2v2 like 2v2 players play 2v2. I would like to see these 1v1 pros fight against a pro 2v2 team. I have a feeling they would get destroyed. I was able to point out many many flaws in their builds that a solid high level 2v2 team would not have made or would have exploited. The games (1v1 and 2v2) play so differently that they do not translate towards each other very well. Exclusive High Level 1v1 players will not do very well in the High Level 2v2 scene, and vice versa, and this is how it should stay.


Hate to break it to you, but your 'theory' has been reality since... well pretty much since bw launched. 2s has always been played differently and 2 strict 1v1 players could never compete with a proper team.
What you say about shared control is very true tho - 1 player who has to play for his tp doesnt stand a chance against a skilled team, this is just simple logic.

As for spawn positions - what allowed for cross spawn positions to work in sc1 was high ground advantage. We don't have it in sc2 thus there's no real way for a zerg to solo defend against 2 toss or any other combination of races, hell with cross spawns a zerg in sc2 would have problems with defending even against 1 toss, since he wouldnt be able to expo or hold a ramp, what would be left for him is to spam roaches to no end, which basically puts him out of the game in later stages.
Without close spawns 2s wouldnt work _at all_ in SC2.
kAra
Profile Joined September 2004
Germany1387 Posts
June 28 2010 10:13 GMT
#53

Hate to break it to you, but your 'theory' has been reality since... well pretty much since bw launched. 2s has always been played differently and 2 strict 1v1 players could never compete with a proper team.
What you say about shared control is very true tho - 1 player who has to play for his tp doesnt stand a chance against a skilled team, this is just simple logic.

As for spawn positions - what allowed for cross spawn positions to work in sc1 was high ground advantage. We don't have it in sc2 thus there's no real way for a zerg to solo defend against 2 toss or any other combination of races, hell with cross spawns a zerg in sc2 would have problems with defending even against 1 toss, since he wouldnt be able to expo or hold a ramp, what would be left for him is to spam roaches to no end, which basically puts him out of the game in later stages.
Without close spawns 2s wouldnt work _at all_ in SC2.


hm i dont remember ppl only defending in sc1 as zerg only because of high ground advantage... oh wait zerg just had zerglings in early/mid game so wtf ur talking about ?
mada mada dane
FortuneSyn
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1826 Posts
June 28 2010 10:14 GMT
#54
On June 28 2010 19:05 kAra wrote:
i was waiting for that question : ) im one of the few (i doubt there were more than 10 players in sc1) who got payed for playing 2x2 for over 2years, so if u dont know who i am, im really curious what ur doing in this topic with all your uber knowledge


As I stated before, you are a nobody. I don't give much credit to a kid that spits "uber" and "noob" around in this thread to make his point. Go ahead and tell me why my arguments are invalid, or stop posting.
kAra
Profile Joined September 2004
Germany1387 Posts
June 28 2010 10:17 GMT
#55
so since u agreed u know nothing about 2x2 and nothing about 2x2 in sc1 in particular, ill stop arguing with you uber n00b, dont wanna see this get closed because of kids like you when dea spent some time to point on the things which are wrong in 2x2, and u really think i would go on an argument with you when ur point of view is 00,00% value to anybody who understands 2x2 ?
mada mada dane
Mentos
Profile Joined August 2003
United Kingdom203 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-28 10:24:09
June 28 2010 10:21 GMT
#56
On June 28 2010 19:13 kAra wrote:
Show nested quote +

Hate to break it to you, but your 'theory' has been reality since... well pretty much since bw launched. 2s has always been played differently and 2 strict 1v1 players could never compete with a proper team.
What you say about shared control is very true tho - 1 player who has to play for his tp doesnt stand a chance against a skilled team, this is just simple logic.

As for spawn positions - what allowed for cross spawn positions to work in sc1 was high ground advantage. We don't have it in sc2 thus there's no real way for a zerg to solo defend against 2 toss or any other combination of races, hell with cross spawns a zerg in sc2 would have problems with defending even against 1 toss, since he wouldnt be able to expo or hold a ramp, what would be left for him is to spam roaches to no end, which basically puts him out of the game in later stages.
Without close spawns 2s wouldnt work _at all_ in SC2.


hm i dont remember ppl only defending in sc1 as zerg only because of high ground advantage... oh wait zerg just had zerglings in early/mid game so wtf ur talking about ?


you just answered your own question, play pure ling on a map w/o a ramp in sc2 and see how far it gets you.
cubert
Profile Joined June 2010
Russian Federation94 Posts
June 28 2010 10:24 GMT
#57
Removing random spawn positions makes it much easier for blizzard to balance 2v2.

Are you kidding? Also much easier for balance to remove t2-t3 units.

a lot of creativity and coordination is needed to master the advantages of having shared control and shared resources.

Sharing the whole resources doesn't need any creativity and coordination.

All it really says is "2v2 in sc2 sucks because of shared control, because there is more ways to communicate, and because there is no longer random spawn positions".

2v2 in sc2 is good, but it can be much better than now.
kAra
Profile Joined September 2004
Germany1387 Posts
June 28 2010 10:28 GMT
#58
mentos, "We don't have it in sc2 thus there's no real way for a zerg to solo defend against 2 toss or any other combination"

i was just saying that zerg was never in need of a choke early or midgame in sc1, because he just had lings where u had to look for a flank and not fight at a narrow point

in sc2 zerg even has roaches so he can make use of a choke and have it alot easier to defend

conclusion -> zerg has it alot easier to defend in sc2 than in sc1 thats why i dont agree at all with your "zerg cant defend early vs anything"
mada mada dane
Mentos
Profile Joined August 2003
United Kingdom203 Posts
June 28 2010 10:41 GMT
#59
Yes man but the big difference is that lings were useful all the way through mid game even to late game. They were also useful due to their mobility and proper surround as counters. Now you have shitty surround and FF which renders lings useless.
roaches you cant spam and are countered by mara/immo/colo/tank take your pick.
Once t2 units step into play and you are cross spawned you wouldnt be able to defend against ONE toss or ONE terran. So your opponents tp contains your tp and the other one steamrolls you due to the nature of your race, which needs economy to stand a chance vs t2/t3 units.
kAra
Profile Joined September 2004
Germany1387 Posts
June 28 2010 10:48 GMT
#60
im not talking about the mid game here, i was just wondering how u explained the need of close ally position because _you_ dont seem to know a good way of playing the mid game when u werent able to mass eco ( i assume u play zerg), this is also a big problem for the starters in sc1 2x2 and they found a way around it (sc2 has queen to defend 1v2, speed bonus on creep, roaches who tank all shit early game - i just cant agree that u cant defend 1v2 early as a zerg without autolosing the game, my opinion)
mada mada dane
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