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8751 Posts
On July 02 2010 06:10 fyyer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 05:49 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 02 2010 05:38 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:28 maybenexttime wrote:On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote:
yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2 You really don't get it. You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced? WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this. While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's. Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
Nobody said that WC3 and SC players aren't equal level in America/Europe. Nobody made it sound like SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct. If those are the things you think you're responding to, you should re-read the posts of the people you are quoting.
As a sidenote, meta game is a tiny part of the battle -- nowhere near 99%. And I'm not sure what you mean by "they have the competition in their mind already" because that seems like a given for anyone trying to compete. Being competitive and having a good meta game isn't much more than 10% of the battle in my experience.
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On July 02 2010 06:38 Zeller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 06:31 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 06:18 Zeller wrote:On July 02 2010 06:10 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:49 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 02 2010 05:38 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:28 maybenexttime wrote:On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote:
yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2 You really don't get it. You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced? WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this. While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's. Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly. What great WC3 players were great SC players? Transition between the games isn't easy at all. I'm not sure that's the right question to ask. I can't answer it, or the reverse. I remember MaDFroG used to play Starcraft at a national competitive level before going to WC3 but that's all I can remember. The fact that the ladders before beta went down were a mix of top WC3 and top SC players I think is proof the adaptation is alot easier than you think. The meta game is the same in everyones mind. This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it. I ah i see your just saying WC3 players will do just fine in SC2, not necessarily be "good" SC2 players. Although I'm sure some will.
What is "good"? They are the same genre, with different tactics, but fundamentally the same idea. Timing pushes, Micro, Macro, 2 different mineral types, one has 3 entirely different races, the other 4 entirely different, Harassment, worker scouting, all the same. WC3 is hero focused, but still an extreme emphasis on value per unit because that's how it works. What I'm saying is there no reason two gamers of the same genre yet different game will have trouble adapting. This shouldn't be hard to understand. People are stubborn and blind with their specific game pride to say the two won't be able to compete.
On July 02 2010 06:48 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 06:10 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:49 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 02 2010 05:38 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:28 maybenexttime wrote:On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote:
yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2 You really don't get it. You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced? WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this. While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's. Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly. Nobody said that WC3 and SC players aren't equal level in America/Europe. Nobody made it sound like SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct. If those are the things you think you're responding to, you should re-read the posts of the people you are quoting. As a sidenote, meta game is a tiny part of the battle -- nowhere near 99%. And I'm not sure what you mean by "they have the competition in their mind already" because that seems like a given for anyone trying to compete. Being competitive and having a good meta game isn't much more than 10% of the battle in my experience.
Like I said above, they're both the same genre, and out of that they both follow similar terms and styles. They're different games, but share the same language. Just take Grubby for example. He knows what it's like traveling, being in front of a big audience in a tournament to compete, knowing what timings to look out for, knowing what notes to jot down, the entire pro gaming mind is already developed for him, to practice for hours a day. That's what I mean. He just has to rearrange things a bit to fit this different game of the same genre.
If Jaedong went to Warcraft 3, he would have to adapt to hero usage, and things like that but he already knows what is required to become the best, he has the micro, he has the apm, now he just has to practice. Reverse is true also for a pro WC3 gamer.
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I'd say it's much like natural selection - the more competitive scene and a huge talent pool equals to the Korean BW progamers being some of the best RTS gamers in the world.
It's easier to become a WC3 "progamer" (i.e. a top WC3 player; there are few WC3 progamers so I'm using the term loosely, by which I mean ~top 200-300 WC3 players, which is more or less equal to the number of BW progamers) than it is to become a BW pro.
Just consider how difficult it is to get to the "real" OSL aka Ro16. First you need to acquire a progaming license, i.e. win a Courage Tournament, which already is very difficult for even the top foreign BW players, who happen to be as dedicated/talented/hard working as their WC3 counterparts (assumption, which I think is pretty accurate). Then you need to get past the Preliminaries and work your way into the top 16.
I followed the WC3 scene for years before my interest slowly eroded, and I haven't seen a single tournament that's even half as hard to qualify for, not to mention win it.
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On July 02 2010 05:24 fyyer wrote:
This is a funny thread, considering almost everyone arguing here is nobodies, except KiWiKaKi. Accomplished Warcraft 3 player's view > random scrub iccup D broodwar view.
I have to say though, I've followed Warcraft 3 and Broodwar closely since they came out. I pray we see Moon vs Flash and Grubby vs Jaedong! It will be great seeing awesome players from both games compete.
Nobodies? this is a Starcraft community website not a warcraft one. I've been playing starcraft since '98 and so have a lot of people. I think my opinions are as justified and important than someone who just switched over from war3 to sc2 less than a month ago. Pretty ignorant and irrelevant you had to add that in imo.
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On July 02 2010 07:02 fyyer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 06:38 Zeller wrote:On July 02 2010 06:31 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 06:18 Zeller wrote:On July 02 2010 06:10 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:49 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 02 2010 05:38 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:28 maybenexttime wrote:On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote:
yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2 You really don't get it. You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced? WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this. While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's. Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly. What great WC3 players were great SC players? Transition between the games isn't easy at all. I'm not sure that's the right question to ask. I can't answer it, or the reverse. I remember MaDFroG used to play Starcraft at a national competitive level before going to WC3 but that's all I can remember. The fact that the ladders before beta went down were a mix of top WC3 and top SC players I think is proof the adaptation is alot easier than you think. The meta game is the same in everyones mind. This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it. I ah i see your just saying WC3 players will do just fine in SC2, not necessarily be "good" SC2 players. Although I'm sure some will. What is "good"? They are the same genre, with different tactics, but fundamentally the same idea. Timing pushes, Micro, Macro, 2 different mineral types, one has 3 entirely different races, the other 4 entirely different, Harassment, worker scouting, all the same. WC3 is hero focused, but still an extreme emphasis on value per unit because that's how it works. What I'm saying is there no reason two gamers of the same genre yet different game will have trouble adapting. This shouldn't be hard to understand. People are stubborn and blind with their specific game pride to say the two won't be able to compete. Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 06:48 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 02 2010 06:10 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:49 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 02 2010 05:38 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:28 maybenexttime wrote:On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote:
yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2 You really don't get it. You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced? WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this. While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's. Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly. Nobody said that WC3 and SC players aren't equal level in America/Europe. Nobody made it sound like SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct. If those are the things you think you're responding to, you should re-read the posts of the people you are quoting. As a sidenote, meta game is a tiny part of the battle -- nowhere near 99%. And I'm not sure what you mean by "they have the competition in their mind already" because that seems like a given for anyone trying to compete. Being competitive and having a good meta game isn't much more than 10% of the battle in my experience. Like I said above, they're both the same genre, and out of that they both follow similar terms and styles. They're different games, but share the same language. Just take Grubby for example. He knows what it's like traveling, being in front of a big audience in a tournament to compete, knowing what timings to look out for, knowing what notes to jot down, the entire pro gaming mind is already developed for him, to practice for hours a day. That's what I mean. He just has to rearrange things a bit to fit this different game of the same genre. If Jaedong went to Warcraft 3, he would have to adapt to hero usage, and things like that but he already knows what is required to become the best, he has the micro, he has the apm, now he just has to practice. Reverse is true also for a pro WC3 gamer.
I pretty much agreed with you when I responded.
Now I realize your just a word-twisting fag who has to have to the last word.
This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it. What?
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On July 02 2010 07:45 Zeller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 07:02 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 06:38 Zeller wrote:On July 02 2010 06:31 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 06:18 Zeller wrote:On July 02 2010 06:10 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:49 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 02 2010 05:38 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:28 maybenexttime wrote:On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote:
yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2 You really don't get it. You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced? WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this. While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's. Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly. What great WC3 players were great SC players? Transition between the games isn't easy at all. I'm not sure that's the right question to ask. I can't answer it, or the reverse. I remember MaDFroG used to play Starcraft at a national competitive level before going to WC3 but that's all I can remember. The fact that the ladders before beta went down were a mix of top WC3 and top SC players I think is proof the adaptation is alot easier than you think. The meta game is the same in everyones mind. This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it. I ah i see your just saying WC3 players will do just fine in SC2, not necessarily be "good" SC2 players. Although I'm sure some will. What is "good"? They are the same genre, with different tactics, but fundamentally the same idea. Timing pushes, Micro, Macro, 2 different mineral types, one has 3 entirely different races, the other 4 entirely different, Harassment, worker scouting, all the same. WC3 is hero focused, but still an extreme emphasis on value per unit because that's how it works. What I'm saying is there no reason two gamers of the same genre yet different game will have trouble adapting. This shouldn't be hard to understand. People are stubborn and blind with their specific game pride to say the two won't be able to compete. On July 02 2010 06:48 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 02 2010 06:10 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:49 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 02 2010 05:38 fyyer wrote:On July 02 2010 05:28 maybenexttime wrote:On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote:
yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2 You really don't get it. You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced? WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this. While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's. Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly. Nobody said that WC3 and SC players aren't equal level in America/Europe. Nobody made it sound like SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct. If those are the things you think you're responding to, you should re-read the posts of the people you are quoting. As a sidenote, meta game is a tiny part of the battle -- nowhere near 99%. And I'm not sure what you mean by "they have the competition in their mind already" because that seems like a given for anyone trying to compete. Being competitive and having a good meta game isn't much more than 10% of the battle in my experience. Like I said above, they're both the same genre, and out of that they both follow similar terms and styles. They're different games, but share the same language. Just take Grubby for example. He knows what it's like traveling, being in front of a big audience in a tournament to compete, knowing what timings to look out for, knowing what notes to jot down, the entire pro gaming mind is already developed for him, to practice for hours a day. That's what I mean. He just has to rearrange things a bit to fit this different game of the same genre. If Jaedong went to Warcraft 3, he would have to adapt to hero usage, and things like that but he already knows what is required to become the best, he has the micro, he has the apm, now he just has to practice. Reverse is true also for a pro WC3 gamer. I pretty much agreed with you when I responded. Now I realize your just a word-twisting fag who has to have to the last word. This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it. What?
No no no. Your "not necessarily be "good" SC2 players" that you added at the end came off as condescending.
"This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it" -
Starcraft - Chocolate cake
Warcraft 3 - Brownies
When I see Starcraft fighting with Warcraft 3 it's pretty saddening because I think both are really good. Find 2 things you have high regard for and then watch them fight, pretty stupid and who do you defend? You just tell them to stop fighting. 
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EPT
