saw the first game and really, grubby played horrible so i doubt he has played any sc2 at all yet because i know he is so much better than that
Grubby has plaid a bit of Starcraft 2 but he is still a full-time War3 player. I hope that he will realize his foolishness before it's too late, there's really no future for Wc3 at this point.
On June 28 2010 07:04 Gaius Baltar wrote: It looks like while beta has been down the archon's attack animation was finally upgraded from sock shuffle static to veritable Zeus smite.
saw the first game and really, grubby played horrible so i doubt he has played any sc2 at all yet because i know he is so much better than that
iirc Grubby said in an interview recently that he's only played maybe 150 or so games of SC2, so yea, he's definitely not top tier yet.
Lol exactly.. Idk why they picked him for the show match? I mean seriously..They could have picked ANYBODY to play it maybe the result wouldn't be 2-0. I mean seriously.. for a Korean Starcraft event they pick some Wc3 player that has barely played the game..No offense to gruby but still.. Korea has a lot more to pick from then a Wc3 player..
saw the first game and really, grubby played horrible so i doubt he has played any sc2 at all yet because i know he is so much better than that
iirc Grubby said in an interview recently that he's only played maybe 150 or so games of SC2, so yea, he's definitely not top tier yet.
Lol exactly.. Idk why they picked him for the show match? I mean seriously..They could have picked ANYBODY to play it maybe the result wouldn't be 2-0. I mean seriously.. for a Korean Starcraft event they pick some Wc3 player that has barely played the game..No offense to gruby but still.. Korea has a lot more to pick from then a Wc3 player..
I think it was common knowledge to everyone that Garimto was going to have a field day with Grubby. I'm not a war3 player, but Grubby is a common name for anyone that follows Esports, and thus it makes for an interesting match.
On June 28 2010 07:29 KissBlade wrote: What was so interesting about a one sided stomp fest ...? Honestly they should've picked a better match.
Let me break it down for you: Garimto - Ex PRO BW Grubby - Most dominant War3 player Garimto + Grubby = Huge audience with many interested fans from both sides
On June 28 2010 07:29 KissBlade wrote: What was so interesting about a one sided stomp fest ...? Honestly they should've picked a better match.
Let me break it down for you: Garimto - Ex PRO BW Grubby - Most dominant War3 player Garimto + Grubby = Huge audience with many interested fans from both sides
Thanks for the clarification, as that detail was completely lost on me
On June 28 2010 07:29 KissBlade wrote: What was so interesting about a one sided stomp fest ...? Honestly they should've picked a better match.
Let me break it down for you: Garimto - Ex PRO BW Grubby - Most dominant War3 player Garimto + Grubby = Huge audience with many interested fans from both sides
Which makes for a hyped match. That has nothing to do with a match being interesting.
On June 28 2010 07:29 KissBlade wrote: What was so interesting about a one sided stomp fest ...? Honestly they should've picked a better match.
Let me break it down for you: Garimto - Ex PRO BW Grubby - Most dominant War3 player Garimto + Grubby = Huge audience with many interested fans from both sides
Which makes for a hyped match. That has nothing to do with a match being interesting.
The games were just bad.
If you read the quote of the guy i quoted he stated that they could have done a better job picking a better player to face Garimto. I don't care how interesting the game was, all i'm saying is that picking Grubby to face Garimto will attract more of an audience because of his name, not the caliber of his skills. I'm confident that the main objective of this showcase was simply to attract a broader set of viewers.
Good games to watch but you can tell Grubby wasn't quite sure of if he had an advantage or not, especially in the second game. He got tore up by siege tanks when he should have backed off multiple times.
Other than that it was entertaining to watch. I really think Grubby should have won the second game, despite many mistakes walking into tank lines because he was very far ahead after that first push or two.
On June 28 2010 07:29 KissBlade wrote: What was so interesting about a one sided stomp fest ...? Honestly they should've picked a better match.
Let me break it down for you: Garimto - Ex PRO BW Grubby - Most dominant War3 player Garimto + Grubby = Huge audience with many interested fans from both sides
Which makes for a hyped match. That has nothing to do with a match being interesting.
The games were just bad.
If you read the quote of the guy i quoted he stated that they could have done a better job picking a better player to face Garimto. I don't care how interesting the game was, all i'm saying is that picking Grubby to face Garimto will attract more of an audience because of his name, not the caliber of his skills. I'm confident that the main objective of this showcase was simply to attract a broader set of viewers.
Blizzard does not have to convince WC3 players to hop on the SC2 train, they know their game has zero future. It is the people who have been playing BW for such a long time and the many people who aspire to be BW professions they need to convince to play SC2. Tester vs. Garimto would have been a much better showmatch and accomplish their goal (if that was it) better than Grubby vs. Garimto
On June 28 2010 07:29 KissBlade wrote: What was so interesting about a one sided stomp fest ...? Honestly they should've picked a better match.
Let me break it down for you: Garimto - Ex PRO BW Grubby - Most dominant War3 player Garimto + Grubby = Huge audience with many interested fans from both sides
Which makes for a hyped match. That has nothing to do with a match being interesting.
The games were just bad.
If you read the quote of the guy i quoted he stated that they could have done a better job picking a better player to face Garimto. I don't care how interesting the game was, all i'm saying is that picking Grubby to face Garimto will attract more of an audience because of his name, not the caliber of his skills. I'm confident that the main objective of this showcase was simply to attract a broader set of viewers.
They hosted that event in Korea. Why should they pick a WC3 player over a BW player? Doesn't make sense.
watched the game on scrap station and god does garimto play terrible, especialle the first mins of part 2. he only won because grubby amazingly managed to play even worse.
Those were some atrocious games on both sides. On scrap station Garimto knows that Grubby hasn't expanded and is going for some sort of 1 base DT 4 gate 1 robo 1 stargate stupidity build, so there's only one possible thing Grubby can do - kill him before his economy becomes way too strong. But instead Garimto breaks down the middle rocks, then when his natural comes under attack (no tanks in position), Garimto doesn't even bother gradually seige/unseige over to his natural, instead he amoves his tanks into Grubby's army. Builds were bad, micro was bad, strategy was bad. If Blizzard wants people to take SC2 seriously as a professional game, maybe they should find some people who are taking it seriously for showmatches.
On June 28 2010 07:29 KissBlade wrote: What was so interesting about a one sided stomp fest ...? Honestly they should've picked a better match.
Let me break it down for you: Garimto - Ex PRO BW Grubby - Most dominant War3 player Garimto + Grubby = Huge audience with many interested fans from both sides
Which makes for a hyped match. That has nothing to do with a match being interesting.
The games were just bad.
Precisely, but that's what they wanted. If anything this proves the game actually requires practice and experience to master, and not just general progamer skill.
For someone who isn't into sc2, the games were fun and tempting enough, so mission accomplished; also covering the fans of 2 very popular existing games with the choice of players.
idk about you guys but i like how this was done at an korean event on june 24th, yet we dont have beta back yet...I understand marketing and everything but wtf?!
Why almost every other poster misspells Garimto's nick? Even OP
But I would say very interesting matches, for a showmatch. Can't even describe to how great is to see Garimto playing x) Hope he sticks with sc2 in the future too.
Nice to see some changes for the archons, even though only different attack animation
The match itself was fine, but really only 1 match? It should have been like a week long event with multiple headline matches between the top BW players.
Im not trying to be a dick on purpose, but going 4 warpgates, citidal, shrine, robo, stargate AND forge all off one base is pretty disgusting. after 10 games i could've told him that is retarded...
His choice to expand to 12 on LT also makes zero sense to me, unless it was just a pure gamble hoping garimto wouldnt see it...
pretty sure grubby have done better than any of you talkin shit would have with only 150 games played
That doesn't change the fact that he performed poorly.
Excuse me, but even if i'm not a pro gamer, i wouldn't take all my army that is in the middle of the map to back all the way to my base to defend from a 1 medivac drop, instead of just warping units and clean it while pushing with my main force.
It's not because he is grubby, that we just need to bow to him and admire how ''bad'' he played. Game 1 was just a joke any sc1 skilled player that would of practice 150 games on sc2 beta would of performed better than grubby during that game 1.
He even sacrificed like all his units when he was trying to delay that natural. We moved onto that cliff close to Garimto's natural istead of trying to break the rocks and escape. Then proceeded to wait for Garimto to take a favourable position and suicided his units like a dummy.
Sorry, but I'm sure any top16 Zotac match could've been better than that.
And I don't think Grubby did better than me or many people in this thread. His play was attrocious.
saw the first game and really, grubby played horrible so i doubt he has played any sc2 at all yet because i know he is so much better than that
Grubby has plaid a bit of Starcraft 2 but he is still a full-time War3 player. I hope that he will realize his foolishness before it's too late, there's really no future for Wc3 at this point.
I dont see any foolishness in that, if hes making some good money in WC3 atm. I wouldn't switch yet either if I was him. There's no need to immediately pick up SC2, as long as he starts playing it hardcore at some point in the future, a skilled gamer like him will do just fine and it wont just magically be "too late".
pretty sure grubby have done better than any of you talkin shit would have with only 150 games played
That doesn't change the fact that he performed poorly.
Excuse me, but even if i'm not a pro gamer, i wouldn't take all my army that is in the middle of the map to back all the way to my base to defend from a 1 medivac drop, instead of just warping units and clean it while pushing with my main force.
It's not because he is grubby, that we just need to bow to him and admire how ''bad'' he played. Game 1 was just a joke any sc1 skilled player that would of practice 150 games on sc2 beta would of performed better than grubby during that game 1.
Mmh, u r partly right with the medivac, but I still dont know if we watched the same game. I saw Garimto making a lot more mistakes than Grubby in game 1 and and at one point only the PF held him in the game.
On game one he really seemed to hold on for a long time despite his initial fast DT strat was completely ineffective. Makes me think he would have won if he nixed the DTs all together.
I really hope Grubby plays more sc2, I have such a man crush on him... He always produced great replays that provided me with days of entertainment.
On June 28 2010 14:10 TheAntZ wrote: Pretty damn sure he didnt. What the hell was that entire tech tree off one base? Playing it like its wc3
Yeah, that's how wc3 is played. Master shamans and walkers + taurens off one mine...
Well thats a silly sarchastic comment to sugar coat it, its more like, the equivilant of going all the tier 1 + tier 2 structures off of one base, which is quite common for builds in wc3 afaik (eg: barracks, warmill, voodoo lounge, beastiery, spirit lodge, alter).... It's not like grubby went range collosi storm templar and carrier + mother ship off one base. Tbh his playing like its wc3 (in terms of teching so many branches at once off one base) was a pretty accurate description to me.
Well thats a silly sarchastic comment to sugar coat it, its more like, the equivilant of going all the tier 1 + tier 2 structures off of one base, which is quite common for builds in wc3 afaik (eg: barracks, warmill, voodoo lounge, beastiery, spirit lodge, alter).... It's not like grubby went range collosi storm templar and carrier + mother ship off one base. Tbh his playing like its wc3 (in terms of teching so many branches at once off one base) was a pretty accurate description to me.
Fair enough, I didn't watch the games, I just assumed that when he said "entire tech tree" he meant...well the entire tech tree. But yeah when you put it like that it makes sense. I'll shut up now.
I don't think people should judge/ hate on someone jus because they're a wc3 player. Like its obvious he doesn't play sc2, let alone just started playing toss(most like orc). More than half the community aren't even on that level where they can judge someone else's play.
On another note, I <3 Garimto and Grubby,and i hope they both start playing sc2 alot more. Wc3 players I've seen so far have brought alot of creativity to the game. They do come from a background where they have to do more than just build the whole game.
Old school sc players(asian mostly) bring their creativity and innovation. Its a nice mix too look forward too.
On June 28 2010 17:21 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Garimto plays T now?
he off-raced to be nice to grubby.
I somehow got the feeling that Grubby played T so thats why I wondered why he went P and Garimto T, unless both went off-race but that would be just weird.
On June 29 2010 00:24 HUGGY wrote: I don't think people should judge/ hate on someone jus because they're a wc3 player. Like its obvious he doesn't play sc2, let alone just started playing toss(most like orc). More than half the community aren't even on that level where they can judge someone else's play.
On another note, I <3 Garimto and Grubby,and i hope they both start playing sc2 alot more. Wc3 players I've seen so far have brought alot of creativity to the game. They do come from a background where they have to do more than just build the whole game.
Old school sc players(asian mostly) bring their creativity and innovation. Its a nice mix too look forward too.
Are you implying that the only thing you have to do in BW is building? T____T
On June 29 2010 00:24 HUGGY wrote: I don't think people should judge/ hate on someone jus because they're a wc3 player. Like its obvious he doesn't play sc2, let alone just started playing toss(most like orc). More than half the community aren't even on that level where they can judge someone else's play.
On another note, I <3 Garimto and Grubby,and i hope they both start playing sc2 alot more. Wc3 players I've seen so far have brought alot of creativity to the game. They do come from a background where they have to do more than just build the whole game.
Old school sc players(asian mostly) bring their creativity and innovation. Its a nice mix too look forward too.
Are you implying that the only thing you have to do in BW is building? T____T
I'm implying no such thing as a bw player myself, over the years ive come across nothing but macro oriented players is all. The korean teams we root for here on TL have the most interesting play because they play different from most of us foreigners, which is a more macro style(from what I've faced on iccup/tournament). So it is very nice too see these 2 gamers go at it from different backgrounds.
I've only ever play wc3 for a year, bw for 2 years, I myself am an aggressive player. Only thing I am implying is that wc3 players and korean progamers have more creative innovative way of playing.
On June 29 2010 00:24 HUGGY wrote: I don't think people should judge/ hate on someone jus because they're a wc3 player. Like its obvious he doesn't play sc2, let alone just started playing toss(most like orc). More than half the community aren't even on that level where they can judge someone else's play.
On another note, I <3 Garimto and Grubby,and i hope they both start playing sc2 alot more. Wc3 players I've seen so far have brought alot of creativity to the game. They do come from a background where they have to do more than just build the whole game.
Old school sc players(asian mostly) bring their creativity and innovation. Its a nice mix too look forward too.
Are you implying that the only thing you have to do in BW is building? T____T
He was just backlashing at the people saying SC > War3, you shouldn't take it too hard Anyways, people that say SC players > WC3 players (especially NOW, where the game hasn't been out long enough to even say who's gonna be a good player or not ) are ridiculous. Both games have similarities and differences, and even though I do think WC3 players are maybe in general not as good as SC players right now because of the way more macro-heavy play style, I don't think this advantage will last long, so we'll see how things are after the game has been out a bit longer.
On June 29 2010 00:24 HUGGY wrote: I don't think people should judge/ hate on someone jus because they're a wc3 player. Like its obvious he doesn't play sc2, let alone just started playing toss(most like orc). More than half the community aren't even on that level where they can judge someone else's play.
On another note, I <3 Garimto and Grubby,and i hope they both start playing sc2 alot more. Wc3 players I've seen so far have brought alot of creativity to the game. They do come from a background where they have to do more than just build the whole game.
Old school sc players(asian mostly) bring their creativity and innovation. Its a nice mix too look forward too.
Are you implying that the only thing you have to do in BW is building? T____T
He was just backlashing at the people saying SC > War3, you shouldn't take it too hard Anyways, people that say SC players > WC3 players (especially NOW, where the game hasn't been out long enough to even say who's gonna be a good player or not ) are ridiculous. Both games have similarities and differences, and even though I do think WC3 players are maybe in general not as good as SC players right now because of the way more macro-heavy play style, I don't think this advantage will last long, so we'll see how things are after the game has been out a bit longer.
I actaully feel sc is harder than wc3 naturally as ive been playing for quite some time, im not backlashing anyone, Im saying exactly what you said, wc3 gamers aren't as good right now, sc is a much more complexed game to pick up vs wc3. So i agree with you for the most part besides the backlashing (–_–)
On June 29 2010 00:24 HUGGY wrote: I don't think people should judge/ hate on someone jus because they're a wc3 player. Like its obvious he doesn't play sc2, let alone just started playing toss(most like orc). More than half the community aren't even on that level where they can judge someone else's play.
On another note, I <3 Garimto and Grubby,and i hope they both start playing sc2 alot more. Wc3 players I've seen so far have brought alot of creativity to the game. They do come from a background where they have to do more than just build the whole game.
Old school sc players(asian mostly) bring their creativity and innovation. Its a nice mix too look forward too.
Are you implying that the only thing you have to do in BW is building? T____T
He was just backlashing at the people saying SC > War3, you shouldn't take it too hard Anyways, people that say SC players > WC3 players (especially NOW, where the game hasn't been out long enough to even say who's gonna be a good player or not ) are ridiculous. Both games have similarities and differences, and even though I do think WC3 players are maybe in general not as good as SC players right now because of the way more macro-heavy play style, I don't think this advantage will last long, so we'll see how things are after the game has been out a bit longer.
I actaully feel sc is harder than wc3 naturally as ive been playing for quite some time, im not backlashing anyone, Im saying exactly what you said, wc3 gamers aren't as good right now, sc is a much more complexed game to pick up vs wc3. So i agree with you for the most part besides the backlashing (–_–)
Ah, I meant it more as a joke, since people constantly go on about this WC3 ? SC Players, I didn't mean to imply anything
On June 29 2010 00:24 HUGGY wrote: I don't think people should judge/ hate on someone jus because they're a wc3 player. Like its obvious he doesn't play sc2, let alone just started playing toss(most like orc). More than half the community aren't even on that level where they can judge someone else's play.
On another note, I <3 Garimto and Grubby,and i hope they both start playing sc2 alot more. Wc3 players I've seen so far have brought alot of creativity to the game. They do come from a background where they have to do more than just build the whole game.
Old school sc players(asian mostly) bring their creativity and innovation. Its a nice mix too look forward too.
Are you implying that the only thing you have to do in BW is building? T____T
He was just backlashing at the people saying SC > War3, you shouldn't take it too hard Anyways, people that say SC players > WC3 players (especially NOW, where the game hasn't been out long enough to even say who's gonna be a good player or not ) are ridiculous. Both games have similarities and differences, and even though I do think WC3 players are maybe in general not as good as SC players right now because of the way more macro-heavy play style, I don't think this advantage will last long, so we'll see how things are after the game has been out a bit longer.
I actaully feel sc is harder than wc3 naturally as ive been playing for quite some time, im not backlashing anyone, Im saying exactly what you said, wc3 gamers aren't as good right now, sc is a much more complexed game to pick up vs wc3. So i agree with you for the most part besides the backlashing (–_–)
Ah, I meant it more as a joke, since people constantly go on about this WC3 ? SC Players, I didn't mean to imply anything
My bad for misreading your post, feel like an idiot, thx for clearing that up bro. apologies!
Im not trying to be a dick on purpose, but going 4 warpgates, citidal, shrine, robo, stargate AND forge all off one base is pretty disgusting. after 10 games i could've told him that is retarded...
His choice to expand to 12 on LT also makes zero sense to me, unless it was just a pure gamble hoping garimto wouldnt see it...
expanding to hidden places like that is common in wc3. And he had no way of viewing the high ground. above his natural.. which would make a drop there extremely powerful
On June 29 2010 00:24 HUGGY wrote: I don't think people should judge/ hate on someone jus because they're a wc3 player. Like its obvious he doesn't play sc2, let alone just started playing toss(most like orc). More than half the community aren't even on that level where they can judge someone else's play.
On another note, I <3 Garimto and Grubby,and i hope they both start playing sc2 alot more. Wc3 players I've seen so far have brought alot of creativity to the game. They do come from a background where they have to do more than just build the whole game.
Old school sc players(asian mostly) bring their creativity and innovation. Its a nice mix too look forward too.
Are you implying that the only thing you have to do in BW is building? T____T
He was just backlashing at the people saying SC > War3, you shouldn't take it too hard Anyways, people that say SC players > WC3 players (especially NOW, where the game hasn't been out long enough to even say who's gonna be a good player or not ) are ridiculous. Both games have similarities and differences, and even though I do think WC3 players are maybe in general not as good as SC players right now because of the way more macro-heavy play style, I don't think this advantage will last long, so we'll see how things are after the game has been out a bit longer.
If anything, the more macro style play becomes integrated into SC2 the more SC players will dominate. You will especially see this when the Korean BW scene eventually switches to SC2. Simply put, the majority of WC3 players will not be able to adapt to controlling and macroing from 3+ bases effectively while experienced BW players will be able to do that. Already the only good WC3 players that are in the beta happen to be from China/Korea. So yes, SC players > WC3 players.
On June 29 2010 07:36 KiWiKaKi wrote: lol what about naniwa , demuslim , lucifron , me , tarson , huk , cauthonluck , axslav , strifecro. Saying that bw players will be better is pure bullshit
Tarson? He's a BW player and so is HuK (dunno for how long he was inactive, though). Have axslav and strifecro achieved anything (honest question)? But anyway, there are far more BW players among the top SC2 players, you can't deny that.
And the fact that Tester was basically raping everyone while being an average BW progamer counts for something. After having seen him play, I'd expect BW progamers to sweep the floor with other games' players.
Anyway, soon it won't matter what background someone has since he'll have enough SC2 playtime to simply consider him an SC2 player.
On June 29 2010 07:36 KiWiKaKi wrote: lol what about naniwa , demuslim , lucifron , me , huk , cauthonluck , axslav , strifecro. Saying that bw players will be better is pure bullshit
Half of those players are cheesy 1-basers that, like I said, will fall when expanding and macro becomes much more important than it is now. Even with those you mentioned, good BW players vastly outnumber the good WC3 players. I know you have "warcraft pride" but truth is truth.
I guess it's like Godwin's Law. It is inevitable that when a Wc3 pro gamer and a SC pro gamer plays against each other people have to bash each other about which game is better.
On June 29 2010 07:36 KiWiKaKi wrote: lol what about naniwa , demuslim , lucifron , me , huk , cauthonluck , axslav , strifecro. Saying that bw players will be better is pure bullshit
Its pointless arguing with D+ bw players, they dont understand wc3 because they never played it.
Its pretty clear BW and WC3 are even right now in SC2.. I would even give the edge to WC3, because outside of DIMAGA and White-Ra, WC3 players are dominating every tournament (like Kiwikaki's players mentioned, then the koreans)
But whatever, let the kids think what they want.
Its just funny that they look at this one game like its an accurate representation of BW vs WC3.. when Grubby has played less than 200 games of SC2 in his life vs's Garimto's like 2000+ I bet.
Grubby is still playing WC3 in all the major tourneys, making more money than Garimto has probably made in his lifetime on BW.. He isnt putting 10 hours a day into SC2 yet, but if he does and tries his best, you can guarantee Grubby will be top 10 in the world for the first 3-4 years. Easily the best foreigner by far, especially.
On June 29 2010 07:36 KiWiKaKi wrote: lol what about naniwa , demuslim , lucifron , me , tarson , huk , cauthonluck , axslav , strifecro. Saying that bw players will be better is pure bullshit
Tarson? He's a BW player and so is HuK (dunno for how long he was inactive, though). Have axslav and strifecro achieved anything (honest question)? But anyway, there are far more BW players among the top SC2 players, you can't deny that.
And the fact that Tester was basically raping everyone while being an average BW progamer counts for something. After having seen him play, I'd expect BW progamers to sweep the floor with other games' players.
Anyway, soon it won't matter what background someone has since he'll have enough SC2 playtime to simply consider him an SC2 player.
Tarson and Huk played BW. BW players will obviously have a definite advantage over WAR3 players, also considering the best BW players are not even playing i don't think you're in a viable position to throw names around no matter how good you are.
On June 29 2010 07:36 KiWiKaKi wrote: lol what about naniwa , demuslim , lucifron , me , huk , cauthonluck , axslav , strifecro. Saying that bw players will be better is pure bullshit
Its pointless arguing with D+ bw players, they dont understand wc3 because they never played it.
Its pretty clear BW and WC3 are even right now in SC2.. I would even give the edge to WC3, because outside of DIMAGA and White-Ra, WC3 players are dominating every tournament (like Kiwikaki's players mentioned, then the koreans)
But whatever, let the kids think what they want.
Its just funny that they look at this one game like its an accurate representation of BW vs WC3.. when Grubby has played less than 200 games of SC2 in his life vs's Garimto's like 2000+ I bet.
Grubby is still playing WC3 in all the major tourneys, making more money than Garimto has probably made in his lifetime on BW.. He isnt putting 10 hours a day into SC2 yet, but if he does and tries his best, you can guarantee Grubby will be top 10 in the world for the first 3-4 years. Easily the best foreigner by far, especially.
This is wrong. The advantage goes to SC. ONLY because of the Koreans like Tester, though (imo)
On June 29 2010 07:36 KiWiKaKi wrote: lol what about naniwa , demuslim , lucifron , me , huk , cauthonluck , axslav , strifecro. Saying that bw players will be better is pure bullshit
Its pointless arguing with D+ bw players, they dont understand wc3 because they never played it.
Its pretty clear BW and WC3 are even right now in SC2.. I would even give the edge to WC3, because outside of DIMAGA and White-Ra, WC3 players are dominating every tournament (like Kiwikaki's players mentioned, then the koreans)
But whatever, let the kids think what they want.
Its just funny that they look at this one game like its an accurate representation of BW vs WC3.. when Grubby has played less than 200 games of SC2 in his life vs's Garimto's like 2000+ I bet.
Grubby is still playing WC3 in all the major tourneys, making more money than Garimto has probably made in his lifetime on BW.. He isnt putting 10 hours a day into SC2 yet, but if he does and tries his best, you can guarantee Grubby will be top 10 in the world for the first 3-4 years. Easily the best foreigner by far, especially.
Im not so sure if your optimism about grubby becoming the "best foreigner" but the fact that garimto vs grubby was completly pointless because of training is obvious. Now you can't just expect player who didn't follow the wc3 scene to understand that the king of the orc is an extremely good player and that he can without doubt enter the top sphere of foreigner e-sport.
Now, I think it's really time for grubby to switch game since wc3 (and sc for that matter) pro-scene is dying, hopefully he will be able to do it quickly enough and start representing us, warcraft 3 player.
You're pretty ignorant man. I think its common knowledge that top level BW players will without a doubt have an easier time to get adapted to the gameplay and mechanics SC2 has to offer. I don't want to argue about this because there really isn't any point you can make to make me think otherwise. Have a nice day
This is a funny thread, considering almost everyone arguing here is nobodies, except KiWiKaKi. Accomplished Warcraft 3 player's view > random scrub iccup D broodwar view.
I have to say though, I've followed Warcraft 3 and Broodwar closely since they came out. I pray we see Moon vs Flash and Grubby vs Jaedong! It will be great seeing awesome players from both games compete.
Those games were surprisingly interesting, SC2 is really easy to pick up especially for a good player like Grubby. but ye, obviously this is not proving anything aside from the fact that practice does good to your gameplay
overall i feel BW players do have a slight edge over WC3 players, this is still starcraft after all. people like Sen are a great argument for this, he is obviously extremely dominant. but WC3 players do pretty well, too, well most of em... but the macro oriented starcraft, the (imo) FAR greater variety in gamestyles and builds (like in Broodwar) and the concept of not focussing on the units all the time can be pretty hard for WC3 players to accustom to. so yes, with time the difference will dwindle and disappear, probably.
then again take my words with a grain of salt, because i am a freaking terrible at starcraft, much to my own disgust, and my WC3 skills are pretty damn good - considering i played only like 14 games TOTAL lol (the fun part is: got a good, positive W/L record xD thanks to a friend's coaching and the hardcore boot camp that is broodwar).
SB
Edit:
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
^also this, not saying WC3 players cannot train and compete but I believe that BW is on a whole other level and I am pretty sure BW pros will pull ahead rapidly because, well, they are USED to the drill and well disciplined I am sure, also they got a good idea of how to organize their training and of course they got the mechanics and a lot of gamesense that still apply
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
I been around. I was around when XDS~Grrr... was competing, I remember when DS-Testie used to talk shit in clan X17. I remember when Boxer SCV rushed Yell0w. I remember when Marn used to be on top of the FFA ladder. Or when Grubby was smurfing under the name APM70Maphacks. It hurts me to see Broodwar players and WC3 players fight, I love both games!
saw the first game and really, grubby played horrible so i doubt he has played any sc2 at all yet because i know he is so much better than that
iirc Grubby said in an interview recently that he's only played maybe 150 or so games of SC2, so yea, he's definitely not top tier yet.
Lol exactly.. Idk why they picked him for the show match? I mean seriously..They could have picked ANYBODY to play it maybe the result wouldn't be 2-0. I mean seriously.. for a Korean Starcraft event they pick some Wc3 player that has barely played the game..No offense to gruby but still.. Korea has a lot more to pick from then a Wc3 player..
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
What great WC3 players were great SC players?
Transition between the games isn't easy at all.
I'm not sure that's the right question to ask. I can't answer it, or the reverse. I remember MaDFroG used to play Starcraft at a national competitive level before going to WC3 but that's all I can remember. The fact that the ladders before beta went down were a mix of top WC3 and top SC players I think is proof the adaptation is alot easier than you think. The meta game is the same in everyones mind.
This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it.
saw the first game and really, grubby played horrible so i doubt he has played any sc2 at all yet because i know he is so much better than that
Grubby has plaid a bit of Starcraft 2 but he is still a full-time War3 player. I hope that he will realize his foolishness before it's too late, there's really no future for Wc3 at this point.
Yes, but grubby believes there's a future in Wc3. I've read several of his interviews and he really believes in it, so you should give him credit for doing what he loves and what he believes in. I really hope there is a future in Wc3, and that it goes in the direction that he wants it to. You may never know - SC2 might bring life to e-sports in general and give a boost to other games like Wc3. All in all, I hope things work out for Grubby no matter what he chooses to do.
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
What great WC3 players were great SC players?
Transition between the games isn't easy at all.
I'm not sure that's the right question to ask. I can't answer it, or the reverse. I remember MaDFroG used to play Starcraft at a national competitive level before going to WC3 but that's all I can remember. The fact that the ladders before beta went down were a mix of top WC3 and top SC players I think is proof the adaptation is alot easier than you think. The meta game is the same in everyones mind.
This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it.
I ah i see your just saying WC3 players will do just fine in SC2, not necessarily be "good" SC2 players. Although I'm sure some will.
On June 29 2010 14:14 nihoh wrote: The games were poor; however no matter what, Grubby _will_ be a force to be reckoned with in SC2. It's just a matter of practice and time.
On June 29 2010 07:36 KiWiKaKi wrote: lol what about naniwa , demuslim , lucifron , me , huk , cauthonluck , axslav , strifecro. Saying that bw players will be better is pure bullshit
Its pointless arguing with D+ bw players, they dont understand wc3 because they never played it.
Its pretty clear BW and WC3 are even right now in SC2.. I would even give the edge to WC3, because outside of DIMAGA and White-Ra, WC3 players are dominating every tournament (like Kiwikaki's players mentioned, then the koreans)
But whatever, let the kids think what they want.
Its just funny that they look at this one game like its an accurate representation of BW vs WC3.. when Grubby has played less than 200 games of SC2 in his life vs's Garimto's like 2000+ I bet.
Grubby is still playing WC3 in all the major tourneys, making more money than Garimto has probably made in his lifetime on BW.. He isnt putting 10 hours a day into SC2 yet, but if he does and tries his best, you can guarantee Grubby will be top 10 in the world for the first 3-4 years. Easily the best foreigner by far, especially.
I am trying hard to see which large tournaments WC3 players are dominating in but I just cannot seem to find them. Can you help me out? The only WC3 player I see in this list is Lucifron.
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
Nobody said that WC3 and SC players aren't equal level in America/Europe. Nobody made it sound like SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct. If those are the things you think you're responding to, you should re-read the posts of the people you are quoting.
As a sidenote, meta game is a tiny part of the battle -- nowhere near 99%. And I'm not sure what you mean by "they have the competition in their mind already" because that seems like a given for anyone trying to compete. Being competitive and having a good meta game isn't much more than 10% of the battle in my experience.
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
What great WC3 players were great SC players?
Transition between the games isn't easy at all.
I'm not sure that's the right question to ask. I can't answer it, or the reverse. I remember MaDFroG used to play Starcraft at a national competitive level before going to WC3 but that's all I can remember. The fact that the ladders before beta went down were a mix of top WC3 and top SC players I think is proof the adaptation is alot easier than you think. The meta game is the same in everyones mind.
This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it.
I ah i see your just saying WC3 players will do just fine in SC2, not necessarily be "good" SC2 players. Although I'm sure some will.
What is "good"? They are the same genre, with different tactics, but fundamentally the same idea. Timing pushes, Micro, Macro, 2 different mineral types, one has 3 entirely different races, the other 4 entirely different, Harassment, worker scouting, all the same. WC3 is hero focused, but still an extreme emphasis on value per unit because that's how it works. What I'm saying is there no reason two gamers of the same genre yet different game will have trouble adapting. This shouldn't be hard to understand. People are stubborn and blind with their specific game pride to say the two won't be able to compete.
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
Nobody said that WC3 and SC players aren't equal level in America/Europe. Nobody made it sound like SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct. If those are the things you think you're responding to, you should re-read the posts of the people you are quoting.
As a sidenote, meta game is a tiny part of the battle -- nowhere near 99%. And I'm not sure what you mean by "they have the competition in their mind already" because that seems like a given for anyone trying to compete. Being competitive and having a good meta game isn't much more than 10% of the battle in my experience.
Like I said above, they're both the same genre, and out of that they both follow similar terms and styles. They're different games, but share the same language. Just take Grubby for example. He knows what it's like traveling, being in front of a big audience in a tournament to compete, knowing what timings to look out for, knowing what notes to jot down, the entire pro gaming mind is already developed for him, to practice for hours a day. That's what I mean. He just has to rearrange things a bit to fit this different game of the same genre.
If Jaedong went to Warcraft 3, he would have to adapt to hero usage, and things like that but he already knows what is required to become the best, he has the micro, he has the apm, now he just has to practice. Reverse is true also for a pro WC3 gamer.
I'd say it's much like natural selection - the more competitive scene and a huge talent pool equals to the Korean BW progamers being some of the best RTS gamers in the world.
It's easier to become a WC3 "progamer" (i.e. a top WC3 player; there are few WC3 progamers so I'm using the term loosely, by which I mean ~top 200-300 WC3 players, which is more or less equal to the number of BW progamers) than it is to become a BW pro.
Just consider how difficult it is to get to the "real" OSL aka Ro16. First you need to acquire a progaming license, i.e. win a Courage Tournament, which already is very difficult for even the top foreign BW players, who happen to be as dedicated/talented/hard working as their WC3 counterparts (assumption, which I think is pretty accurate). Then you need to get past the Preliminaries and work your way into the top 16.
I followed the WC3 scene for years before my interest slowly eroded, and I haven't seen a single tournament that's even half as hard to qualify for, not to mention win it.
On July 02 2010 05:24 fyyer wrote: This is a funny thread, considering almost everyone arguing here is nobodies, except KiWiKaKi. Accomplished Warcraft 3 player's view > random scrub iccup D broodwar view.
I have to say though, I've followed Warcraft 3 and Broodwar closely since they came out. I pray we see Moon vs Flash and Grubby vs Jaedong! It will be great seeing awesome players from both games compete.
Nobodies? this is a Starcraft community website not a warcraft one. I've been playing starcraft since '98 and so have a lot of people. I think my opinions are as justified and important than someone who just switched over from war3 to sc2 less than a month ago. Pretty ignorant and irrelevant you had to add that in imo.
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
What great WC3 players were great SC players?
Transition between the games isn't easy at all.
I'm not sure that's the right question to ask. I can't answer it, or the reverse. I remember MaDFroG used to play Starcraft at a national competitive level before going to WC3 but that's all I can remember. The fact that the ladders before beta went down were a mix of top WC3 and top SC players I think is proof the adaptation is alot easier than you think. The meta game is the same in everyones mind.
This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it.
I ah i see your just saying WC3 players will do just fine in SC2, not necessarily be "good" SC2 players. Although I'm sure some will.
What is "good"? They are the same genre, with different tactics, but fundamentally the same idea. Timing pushes, Micro, Macro, 2 different mineral types, one has 3 entirely different races, the other 4 entirely different, Harassment, worker scouting, all the same. WC3 is hero focused, but still an extreme emphasis on value per unit because that's how it works. What I'm saying is there no reason two gamers of the same genre yet different game will have trouble adapting. This shouldn't be hard to understand. People are stubborn and blind with their specific game pride to say the two won't be able to compete.
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
Nobody said that WC3 and SC players aren't equal level in America/Europe. Nobody made it sound like SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct. If those are the things you think you're responding to, you should re-read the posts of the people you are quoting.
As a sidenote, meta game is a tiny part of the battle -- nowhere near 99%. And I'm not sure what you mean by "they have the competition in their mind already" because that seems like a given for anyone trying to compete. Being competitive and having a good meta game isn't much more than 10% of the battle in my experience.
Like I said above, they're both the same genre, and out of that they both follow similar terms and styles. They're different games, but share the same language. Just take Grubby for example. He knows what it's like traveling, being in front of a big audience in a tournament to compete, knowing what timings to look out for, knowing what notes to jot down, the entire pro gaming mind is already developed for him, to practice for hours a day. That's what I mean. He just has to rearrange things a bit to fit this different game of the same genre.
If Jaedong went to Warcraft 3, he would have to adapt to hero usage, and things like that but he already knows what is required to become the best, he has the micro, he has the apm, now he just has to practice. Reverse is true also for a pro WC3 gamer.
I pretty much agreed with you when I responded.
Now I realize your just a word-twisting fag who has to have to the last word.
This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it. What?
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
What great WC3 players were great SC players?
Transition between the games isn't easy at all.
I'm not sure that's the right question to ask. I can't answer it, or the reverse. I remember MaDFroG used to play Starcraft at a national competitive level before going to WC3 but that's all I can remember. The fact that the ladders before beta went down were a mix of top WC3 and top SC players I think is proof the adaptation is alot easier than you think. The meta game is the same in everyones mind.
This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it.
I ah i see your just saying WC3 players will do just fine in SC2, not necessarily be "good" SC2 players. Although I'm sure some will.
What is "good"? They are the same genre, with different tactics, but fundamentally the same idea. Timing pushes, Micro, Macro, 2 different mineral types, one has 3 entirely different races, the other 4 entirely different, Harassment, worker scouting, all the same. WC3 is hero focused, but still an extreme emphasis on value per unit because that's how it works. What I'm saying is there no reason two gamers of the same genre yet different game will have trouble adapting. This shouldn't be hard to understand. People are stubborn and blind with their specific game pride to say the two won't be able to compete.
On July 02 2010 06:48 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On July 02 2010 06:10 fyyer wrote:
On July 02 2010 05:49 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On July 02 2010 05:38 fyyer wrote:
On July 02 2010 05:28 maybenexttime wrote:
On July 02 2010 05:22 KiWiKaKi wrote: yea man we got it , anyone who doesnt play bw are idiots and cant compete in sc2
You really don't get it.
You do realize that the BW scene in Korea is FAR more competitive than anything WC3 has ever produced?
WC3 in China is insane. WC3 in Korea was going strong until the rigged map scandal broke. The fact of the matter is Blizzard birthed RTS pro gaming in 2 games, some people chose one, some people chose the other. There is insane APM in WC3, and insane APM in SC. There is awesome plays in WC3 and in SC. This stupid argument is "East vs West" type of argument, it's petty and stupid, why can't everyone just be happy that the Blizzard gaming community is coming together and fans of both get to see their favorite players from each compete. Only someone who isn't a true fan of Blizzard and WC3/SC would argue this.
While the international WC3 scene is certainly respectable, it's dwarfed by the Korean SC scene nonetheless. KiWiKaKi was limiting his comment to who played which game while maybenexttime expanded the discussion to the competitive scenes of the games, not just the games themselves. And now you're arguing that they're comparable and pre-emptively shaming anyone who tries to argue otherwise. There's nothing shameful, illogical, or disrespectful in pointing out that SC:BW's competitive scene is way beyond every other scene, particularly WC3's.
Ofcourse the Korean SC scene is on a different level, I don't think anyone doubting that. SC in Korea is on a whole different level than the SC scene of the rest of the world. That's why there's always "He's the best in the world out of Korea" type phrases. But no one should say WC3 and SC players aren't equal at the pro gaming American/Europe level. The only thing pro gamers of WC3 have to adapt to is non-hero mechanic and larger macro mechanics, they have the competition and meta game experience in their mind already, which is 99% of the battle. No doubt top WC3 and top SC players will compete, people make it sound like top SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct, they will blend in just perfectly.
Nobody said that WC3 and SC players aren't equal level in America/Europe. Nobody made it sound like SC players are going to make top WC3 players go extinct. If those are the things you think you're responding to, you should re-read the posts of the people you are quoting.
As a sidenote, meta game is a tiny part of the battle -- nowhere near 99%. And I'm not sure what you mean by "they have the competition in their mind already" because that seems like a given for anyone trying to compete. Being competitive and having a good meta game isn't much more than 10% of the battle in my experience.
Like I said above, they're both the same genre, and out of that they both follow similar terms and styles. They're different games, but share the same language. Just take Grubby for example. He knows what it's like traveling, being in front of a big audience in a tournament to compete, knowing what timings to look out for, knowing what notes to jot down, the entire pro gaming mind is already developed for him, to practice for hours a day. That's what I mean. He just has to rearrange things a bit to fit this different game of the same genre.
If Jaedong went to Warcraft 3, he would have to adapt to hero usage, and things like that but he already knows what is required to become the best, he has the micro, he has the apm, now he just has to practice. Reverse is true also for a pro WC3 gamer.
I pretty much agreed with you when I responded.
Now I realize your just a word-twisting fag who has to have to the last word.
This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it. What?
No no no. Your "not necessarily be "good" SC2 players" that you added at the end came off as condescending.
"This is like defending brownies because chocolate cake doesn't like it" -
Starcraft - Chocolate cake Warcraft 3 - Brownies
When I see Starcraft fighting with Warcraft 3 it's pretty saddening because I think both are really good. Find 2 things you have high regard for and then watch them fight, pretty stupid and who do you defend? You just tell them to stop fighting.
EPT
