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On June 04 2010 01:39 Koffiegast wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 01:31 Bibdy wrote:
I'm assuming the Overseer's Corrupt ability doesn't stop its ability to fire? Because that seems like something that should be allowed. Welcome to patch 14. This ability has been changed couple patches ago. What I find weird is that a PF has attack priority...
What do you mean? That it target fires banelings over Roaches, or something? I think that's the case with every unit's AI. Every unit has a built-in 'threat' value associated with them in the data. Its just more obvious with this thing because its always sitting there without orders (always relying on its standard AI) and will have units coming at it from all directions.
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On June 04 2010 01:35 Atrio wrote:
Maybe Blizzard should fix the amount of SCVs that could repair it. Put a limit, or something.
blizzard doesn't really make artificial fixes like that, they'd either have to make a pathing change to command centers in general or SCVs in general to limit it which would both have too many other effects
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Terran does not have any anti ground defensive structure before the planetary fortress. Think about that for a second, zerg got spine crawlers and protoss got photon cannons which are cheap and available very early. The only defensive structure that the terran can build come at the cost of an expansion. It is insanely expensive and extremely localized. It is not like you can set up a defensive grid of PF's early on, if you can afford it you can pretty much set up one at the most key choke you can think of while zerg/protoss can set up a grid of defense to cover all important points. The PF makes up for its lack of covering a lot of ground by having splash and thus covering really well within its range, and it makes up for the fact that it is so expensive by doing a lot of damage.
I agree though that it should not have firing priority for the AI in the sense that your units auto targets the PF over other units, that I am perfectly fine with having changed but otherwise I feel that it is perfectly balanced.
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On June 04 2010 01:39 Koffiegast wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 01:31 Bibdy wrote:
I'm assuming the Overseer's Corrupt ability doesn't stop its ability to fire? Because that seems like something that should be allowed. Welcome to patch 14. This ability has been changed couple patches ago. What I find weird is that a PF has attack priority...
I agree. As Nazgul pointed it out, it shouldn't have attack priority. Denies any attack close to it, such as harassing.
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I didnt read every page but an easy counter to this would be the new/old overseer ability.
I have to assume that it works on PF.
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On June 04 2010 01:45 Roniii wrote:
I didnt read every page but an easy counter to this would be the new/old overseer ability.
I have to assume that it works on PF.
Sadly it does not stop the PF from attacking 
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On June 04 2010 01:44 ymirheim wrote:
Terran does not have any anti ground defensive structure before the planetary fortress. Think about that for a second, zerg got spine crawlers and protoss got photon cannons which are cheap and available very early. The only defensive structure that the terran can build come at the cost of an expansion. It is insanely expensive and extremely localized. It is not like you can set up a defensive grid of PF's early on, if you can afford it you can pretty much set up one at the most key choke you can think of while zerg/protoss can set up a grid of defense to cover all important points. The PF makes up for its lack of covering a lot of ground by having splash and thus covering really well within its range, and it makes up for the fact that it is so expensive by doing a lot of damage.
I agree though that it should not have firing priority for the AI in the sense that your units auto targets the PF over other units, that I am perfectly fine with having changed but otherwise I feel that it is perfectly balanced.
Woah, hang on. How is this different to SCBW? Terrans have always had to rely on using actual units for defense. That's why they're the defensive race. Giving them the PF is just further evidence that the Terran army is no longer this 'Immobile Beast' that a lot of Terran veterans keep claiming.
Oh and yeah, if that's what you mean by target priority, that's retarded. I don't want my units firing at the giant, repairable, high armour monstrosity, when they're getting fired on by his actual army, too.
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also for terran: siege tanks/thors/banshee, for protoss, void rays/collosus/ immortals, for zerg: spreading roaches out alot and using burrow, mutalisks, burrow micro (attack form two areas and as the PF turns to attack you burrow your units, so it then keeps spinning to the otherside and you unburrow and reburrow effectively to keep it spinning while you get in range. it takes alot of micro and stuff but it's doable. Ultralisks. 2 ultralisks can take down a PF and live. 1 to kill workers the other to kill the PF.
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Hey guys. Just thought I would add my two cents to this discussion.
I am a high ranking Diamond player (10 in my division as of last night) and I have found a lot of success by opening with a PF on my main. I know this sounds insane, but honestly it puts a stop to almost any early rush. Combined with a fast (hidden) expo, it allows me to hold off early attacks easily.
My build order confuses the hell out of opponents and forces them to change their tactics. I usually go:
10 - Depot
11 - Gas (3 on gas right away)
12 - Engineering bay
16 - Expo
17 or 19 - PF
19 - Range upgrade
Then start building production at your expo. I can provide quite a few reps of this if anyone is interested. I have at least 50 replays of it working and 40 of it not.
This is unusual, but it seems to work. My opponents usually concentrate very hard on breaking open the PF to get at the sweet delicious innards, and they don't notice my expo until much, much later.
With the above build you can basically get the PF whenever you have enough gas. I will get it very early if I see a 6-7-8 pool or a proxy Reaper or proxy gates. The PF melts zerglings and even does quite well against Toss.
Now, is the PF overpowered? NO!
Terran deal with it the easiest - Tanks, or if the player is smart he will sit just out of range with Marines or Marauders and take out every structure that ISNT the PF, as well as the SCVs. When the tanks DO finally come it's game over for the PF.
Protoss - Immortals or just mass stalkers usually spell the end of any PF. Even if you repair constantly you can only really hold off maybe 8-10 stalkers. Again with ranged units you can dance around the PF and kill everything else in sight.
Zerg - Zerg probably has the hardest time dealing with the PF, but banelings, or even better Hydras + Lings can take it out easy. Again the best thing to do in this case is ignore the PF and kill everything else.
Air can also work if the terran isn't super-turtling with turrets everywhere.
Basically, it is an interesting way to delay your opponent and stave off rushes. The greatest sacrifice you make with a PF opener is map control and unit production. It does help with some annoying rushes, but it also greatly depends on the map you are playing. On Desert Oasis, for example, Reapers still do a lot of damage to your economy when they jump up that cliff. The PF can't hit them at the edge, but they can kill your SCVs, gas, etc.
Just thought I would get a word in here, because if there's something in SC2 I know about, it's using the PF.
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On June 04 2010 01:44 ymirheim wrote:
Terran does not have any anti ground defensive structure before the planetary fortress. Think about that for a second, zerg got spine crawlers and protoss got photon cannons which are cheap and available very early. The only defensive structure that the terran can build come at the cost of an expansion. It is insanely expensive and extremely localized. It is not like you can set up a defensive grid of PF's early on, if you can afford it you can pretty much set up one at the most key choke you can think of while zerg/protoss can set up a grid of defense to cover all important points. The PF makes up for its lack of covering a lot of ground by having splash and thus covering really well within its range, and it makes up for the fact that it is so expensive by doing a lot of damage.
I agree though that it should not have firing priority for the AI in the sense that your units auto targets the PF over other units, that I am perfectly fine with having changed but otherwise I feel that it is perfectly balanced.
The fact that they never had anti-ground defense in a structure that didn't take supply was pretty much a part of what Terran were.
The reason their ground army was allowed to be so insanely powerful was because they weren't mobile at all. If they left their base, it would stand a strong chance of DYING.
With PF this isn't really the case anymore.
The attack priority is whats extremely annoying about it though.
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On June 04 2010 01:40 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 01:39 Koffiegast wrote:On June 04 2010 01:31 Bibdy wrote:
I'm assuming the Overseer's Corrupt ability doesn't stop its ability to fire? Because that seems like something that should be allowed. Welcome to patch 14. This ability has been changed couple patches ago. What I find weird is that a PF has attack priority... What do you mean? That it target fires banelings over Roaches, or something? I think that's the case with every unit's AI. Every unit has a built-in 'threat' value associated with them in the data. Its just more obvious with this thing because its always sitting there without orders (always relying on its standard AI) and will have units coming at it from all directions.
The other way around, Units prefer to shoot the planetary fortress rather than units
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The attack priority I think is the biggest issue, because if you are fighting a small defending force and a PF, the PF just tanks all the damage, unless you manual attack, which is quite difficult to do (this is for both pvt and pvz). If the priority was lower, players could choose to a-move workers or a-move the defending force, and then walk past the fortress. Of course, the PF could be focused fired by manual click.
Regarding building multiple PF's for defense, there SHOULD be multiple ways to exploit this as protoss and zerg, as long as the terran players don't learn to turtle like flash and negate all the possibilities.
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On June 04 2010 02:49 Chronopolis wrote:
The attack priority I think is the biggest issue, because if you are fighting a small defending force and a PF, the PF just tanks all the damage, unless you manual attack, which is quite difficult to do (this is for both pvt and pvz). If the priority was lower, players could choose to a-move workers or a-move the defending force, and then walk past the fortress. Of course, the PF could be focused fired by manual click.
As Nazgul touched on, this is the only thing that makes the PF kind of ridiculous.
Building a planetary fortress is kind of like building permanent "soft" dark swarm. If you attack with your army normally (even if you spent good time pre-positioning properly), you will just end up doing no damage and will be held off by minimal forces.
The APM required to macro and to micro your army by right-clicking every single unit in the opposing army (even assuming they are standing still) is pretty insane. So attacking into a planetary fortress (even with a ~maxed army) is just a no-go. Imagine if in TvZ, destructible rocks had attack priority for Zerg.
Even if you "nerf" the planetary fortress by making it have normal army priority, it will still be pretty damned good at defending expansions. It creates a large zone of protection around itself that a small defensive army can maneuver around and it can be rapidly repaired. It just won't act like dark swarm any more.
Imagine how imba Tank Hellion would be if upon getting hit by a tank, a Zerg unit would try to path directly to the Tank, even with Hellions blocking the way. This is kind of what the planetary fortress is like right now.
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On June 04 2010 01:52 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 01:44 ymirheim wrote:
Terran does not have any anti ground defensive structure before the planetary fortress. Think about that for a second, zerg got spine crawlers and protoss got photon cannons which are cheap and available very early. The only defensive structure that the terran can build come at the cost of an expansion. It is insanely expensive and extremely localized. It is not like you can set up a defensive grid of PF's early on, if you can afford it you can pretty much set up one at the most key choke you can think of while zerg/protoss can set up a grid of defense to cover all important points. The PF makes up for its lack of covering a lot of ground by having splash and thus covering really well within its range, and it makes up for the fact that it is so expensive by doing a lot of damage.
I agree though that it should not have firing priority for the AI in the sense that your units auto targets the PF over other units, that I am perfectly fine with having changed but otherwise I feel that it is perfectly balanced. Woah, hang on. How is this different to SCBW? Terrans have always had to rely on using actual units for defense. That's why they're the defensive race. Giving them the PF is just further evidence that the Terran army is no longer this 'Immobile Beast' that a lot of Terran veterans keep claiming. Oh and yeah, if that's what you mean by target priority, that's retarded. I don't want my units firing at the giant, repairable, high armour monstrosity, when they're getting fired on by his actual army, too.
On June 04 2010 02:05 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 01:44 ymirheim wrote:
Terran does not have any anti ground defensive structure before the planetary fortress. Think about that for a second, zerg got spine crawlers and protoss got photon cannons which are cheap and available very early. The only defensive structure that the terran can build come at the cost of an expansion. It is insanely expensive and extremely localized. It is not like you can set up a defensive grid of PF's early on, if you can afford it you can pretty much set up one at the most key choke you can think of while zerg/protoss can set up a grid of defense to cover all important points. The PF makes up for its lack of covering a lot of ground by having splash and thus covering really well within its range, and it makes up for the fact that it is so expensive by doing a lot of damage.
I agree though that it should not have firing priority for the AI in the sense that your units auto targets the PF over other units, that I am perfectly fine with having changed but otherwise I feel that it is perfectly balanced. The fact that they never had anti-ground defense in a structure that didn't take supply was pretty much a part of what Terran were. The reason their ground army was allowed to be so insanely powerful was because they weren't mobile at all. If they left their base, it would stand a strong chance of DYING. With PF this isn't really the case anymore. The attack priority is whats extremely annoying about it though.
You, you and you! You forgot the Bunker! What is the meaning of this blasphemy!?
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the attack priority thing does seem like a problem, but honestly why would you be fighting enemy forces within the attack range of a PF?
that's kinda like fighting enemy forces within a psionic storm.
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You still need to fill it with something, though. Which either means leaving some of your army behind to defend while you go gallivanting off to admire the countryside, or exposing yourself to sneak attacks. Protoss and Zerg can just build some supply-less defenses to protect from most stuff. They're not perfect, but they can stall for time or outright stop sneak attacks on expansions from Speedlings, Hellions, DTs, Zealot drops etc.
Terrans that spam Orbital Commands are very vulnerable to Dark Templar attacks. Sure, they probably always have a lot of energy to scan them, but they probably aren't going to leave units spread across the map to thwart attacks from all sides.
Its a trade-off. Do you sacrifice Orbital Commands to have decent defenses from sneak attacks on your expansions, do you take the risk and spread units around the place for defense, or do you invest in building a Planetary Fortress next to all of your Orbital Commands (like TLO does), reducing the size of your army, but securing your positions.
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On June 04 2010 03:16 tarsier wrote:
the attack priority thing does seem like a problem, but honestly why would you be fighting enemy forces within the attack range of a PF?
I don't know, to kill SCVs or destroy an expand when you have the advantage?
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On June 04 2010 03:13 LetMeLiveABit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 01:52 Bibdy wrote:On June 04 2010 01:44 ymirheim wrote:
Terran does not have any anti ground defensive structure before the planetary fortress. Think about that for a second, zerg got spine crawlers and protoss got photon cannons which are cheap and available very early. The only defensive structure that the terran can build come at the cost of an expansion. It is insanely expensive and extremely localized. It is not like you can set up a defensive grid of PF's early on, if you can afford it you can pretty much set up one at the most key choke you can think of while zerg/protoss can set up a grid of defense to cover all important points. The PF makes up for its lack of covering a lot of ground by having splash and thus covering really well within its range, and it makes up for the fact that it is so expensive by doing a lot of damage.
I agree though that it should not have firing priority for the AI in the sense that your units auto targets the PF over other units, that I am perfectly fine with having changed but otherwise I feel that it is perfectly balanced. Woah, hang on. How is this different to SCBW? Terrans have always had to rely on using actual units for defense. That's why they're the defensive race. Giving them the PF is just further evidence that the Terran army is no longer this 'Immobile Beast' that a lot of Terran veterans keep claiming. Oh and yeah, if that's what you mean by target priority, that's retarded. I don't want my units firing at the giant, repairable, high armour monstrosity, when they're getting fired on by his actual army, too. Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:05 Jayme wrote:On June 04 2010 01:44 ymirheim wrote:
Terran does not have any anti ground defensive structure before the planetary fortress. Think about that for a second, zerg got spine crawlers and protoss got photon cannons which are cheap and available very early. The only defensive structure that the terran can build come at the cost of an expansion. It is insanely expensive and extremely localized. It is not like you can set up a defensive grid of PF's early on, if you can afford it you can pretty much set up one at the most key choke you can think of while zerg/protoss can set up a grid of defense to cover all important points. The PF makes up for its lack of covering a lot of ground by having splash and thus covering really well within its range, and it makes up for the fact that it is so expensive by doing a lot of damage.
I agree though that it should not have firing priority for the AI in the sense that your units auto targets the PF over other units, that I am perfectly fine with having changed but otherwise I feel that it is perfectly balanced. The fact that they never had anti-ground defense in a structure that didn't take supply was pretty much a part of what Terran were. The reason their ground army was allowed to be so insanely powerful was because they weren't mobile at all. If they left their base, it would stand a strong chance of DYING. With PF this isn't really the case anymore. The attack priority is whats extremely annoying about it though. You, you and you! You forgot the Bunker! What is the meaning of this blasphemy!?
I did not forget the bunker.
The bunker requires that you fill it with supply units to make it work. This means that your standing army is weaker so you had to sacrifice 2 tanks as Terran to have a full bunker at home.
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I see no problems with this and realize that although he may ahve used this in higher stakes games, it's not an original idea. Many people were even talking about doing that before the beta came out, myself included.
I really dislike your asthetic argument. It looks like a friggin' fortress, what's the problem with that? Why should it have to be constructed near minerals? That argument is literally of ZERO importance to me.
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On June 04 2010 03:20 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 03:13 LetMeLiveABit wrote:On June 04 2010 01:52 Bibdy wrote:On June 04 2010 01:44 ymirheim wrote:
Terran does not have any anti ground defensive structure before the planetary fortress. Think about that for a second, zerg got spine crawlers and protoss got photon cannons which are cheap and available very early. The only defensive structure that the terran can build come at the cost of an expansion. It is insanely expensive and extremely localized. It is not like you can set up a defensive grid of PF's early on, if you can afford it you can pretty much set up one at the most key choke you can think of while zerg/protoss can set up a grid of defense to cover all important points. The PF makes up for its lack of covering a lot of ground by having splash and thus covering really well within its range, and it makes up for the fact that it is so expensive by doing a lot of damage.
I agree though that it should not have firing priority for the AI in the sense that your units auto targets the PF over other units, that I am perfectly fine with having changed but otherwise I feel that it is perfectly balanced. Woah, hang on. How is this different to SCBW? Terrans have always had to rely on using actual units for defense. That's why they're the defensive race. Giving them the PF is just further evidence that the Terran army is no longer this 'Immobile Beast' that a lot of Terran veterans keep claiming. Oh and yeah, if that's what you mean by target priority, that's retarded. I don't want my units firing at the giant, repairable, high armour monstrosity, when they're getting fired on by his actual army, too. On June 04 2010 02:05 Jayme wrote:On June 04 2010 01:44 ymirheim wrote:
Terran does not have any anti ground defensive structure before the planetary fortress. Think about that for a second, zerg got spine crawlers and protoss got photon cannons which are cheap and available very early. The only defensive structure that the terran can build come at the cost of an expansion. It is insanely expensive and extremely localized. It is not like you can set up a defensive grid of PF's early on, if you can afford it you can pretty much set up one at the most key choke you can think of while zerg/protoss can set up a grid of defense to cover all important points. The PF makes up for its lack of covering a lot of ground by having splash and thus covering really well within its range, and it makes up for the fact that it is so expensive by doing a lot of damage.
I agree though that it should not have firing priority for the AI in the sense that your units auto targets the PF over other units, that I am perfectly fine with having changed but otherwise I feel that it is perfectly balanced. The fact that they never had anti-ground defense in a structure that didn't take supply was pretty much a part of what Terran were. The reason their ground army was allowed to be so insanely powerful was because they weren't mobile at all. If they left their base, it would stand a strong chance of DYING. With PF this isn't really the case anymore. The attack priority is whats extremely annoying about it though. You, you and you! You forgot the Bunker! What is the meaning of this blasphemy!? I did not forget the bunker. The bunker requires that you fill it with supply units to make it work. This means that your standing army is weaker so you had to sacrifice 2 tanks as Terran to have a full bunker at home.
o.O
Tanks in bunkers?!
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EPT
