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On June 23 2010 18:57 DooMDash wrote:I mean, this argument to me is like "Oh your ultralisk took out my 200 Zerglings", IMBA! Just don't make units that get owned by specific units next time.
Without necessarily agreeing on PFs being too strong, I need to point out that this is not a good answer. Zerg T3 comes really late and transitioning to it from most strategies (that is, those not already including T3) has a cost that compares to that of building a single PF (hive+ultra cavern or greater spire; add an infestation pit if you weren't going for infestors previously).
If you prefer: PF owns all of zerg's T1 and T2, save for mutas (which do not do any reasonable damage to it unless massed, and I find that massed mutas against terran usually puts you at a disadvantage due to thors or marines). It's a different scenario from making the mistake of building that single specific unit that gets murdered; if you want to argue for the PF, you need to do so along a different line.
Also, somebody claimed: "Static defense should win against offense for cost". While this is true, let me add a, "With the exception of siege units". The kink in this is that zerg do not have any siege unit that they can be expected to deploy in a reasonable time.
Last but not least: the only non-misleading way to think of the costs associated with a PF is treating them as costing 550/150. Forget that Orbital Commands exist when thinking of the costs.
Calling in other factors such as "not being able to call MULEs" is misleading. If you kept that line of accounting, you'd have to say that making a barracks and 8 marines costs you 550 minerals and the ability to call down MULEs.
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wow. so much hate for terran. i doubt such things can be good for the game. another thread that ain't a discussion anymore.
i dont know if PF is balanced or not and i'd really like to play like at least 4 more months before calling anything imbalanced/overpowered or too strong.
my thoughts to topic:
i really like the idea of the PF and i completely disagree with it beeing badly designed
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PFs are strong, but not so strong that they cant be broken. A decent # of Roaches and hydras will drop one, especially with any micro at all to kill some of the repairing SCVs first. Not to mention banelings....
Really the PF is useless vs terran b/c of siege tanks, and pretty awful vs toss too (immortals and void rays). Its main use is vs the much, much more mobile zerg army to hold them off until you can move your fat ass thors into position.
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What if they gave Hydras 7 range w/ the upgrade? This way Zerg could out range PF unless they got the upgrade. I know hydras are already pretty sick units though, so that may end badly.
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On June 23 2010 22:26 DooMDash wrote:
What if they gave Hydras 7 range w/ the upgrade? This way Zerg could out range PF unless they got the upgrade. I know hydras are already pretty sick units though, so that may end badly.
That imbalances everything else though lol- plus who dosent get the range upgrade if they build a pfort?
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I haven't read this thread, but what if the overseers' contamination would deny repairing of terran buildings? So PFs wouldnt be so powerful, plus it would enhance micro managemant to not let the overseer come into reach
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On June 23 2010 22:33 flothefreak wrote:
I haven't read this thread, but what if the overseers' contamination would deny repairing of terran buildings? So PFs wouldnt be so powerful, plus it would enhance micro managemant to not let the overseer come into reach
This dosent seem like a bad idea- not being able to repair is such a small buff to contaminate (but I'd rather see it on Corruptors again.)
My rationalization for this is it gives corruptors a way to affect a battle that dosent have any air units in it. Just my 2 cents.
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On June 23 2010 15:02 Knee_of_Justice wrote:
Man, I moved an army into my opponents nat on sCRAP station... boy, that was the biggest mistake Ive ever made... I had several immortals stalkers, zealots and sentries, but combined with his marauders stimming down the ramp behind me and the tanks on the cliff, my army lasted just a tiny fraction of a second. Forcefield didnt do anything. Guardian shield didnt do anything. My zealots melted, my immortals apparently had a massive achilles heal and my stalkers blinked out of existence.
I dont know if id call it overpowered, but it is incredibly intimidating. Maybe if there were a way to disable the gun separately from the CC itself...
If you had any decent sized army, that should've raped Marauders+PF. Replay or it goes under the assumption that you micro'd terribly.
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On June 03 2010 19:43 MorroW wrote:
i think it sux :p
edit: just read overseer dont work at it, so many rumors. i dont even use the PF. just dont attack it and go expand instead, its not hard at all
just because z is a 1a2a3a race doesnt mean u have to play like one, go for drops nydus or even destroy the backdoors like that map was. i think ur just a stupid gamer if u have problem with the PF
its a huge investment and if he goes for it u can just play defensive instead, theres nothing that forces the zerg to attack the front like that lol
and if ur worried about terran defending expoes with it, just stop it before its done. takes huge time to build up a PF base
agreed.
Just because a terran player builds a PF, should that force a Zerg player to attack him head-on? That's just stupid on zerg's part...its the same as going head on with a crapload of hydralisks into a line of tanks behind a wall..why in the world would you do that?
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On June 23 2010 22:29 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 22:26 DooMDash wrote:
What if they gave Hydras 7 range w/ the upgrade? This way Zerg could out range PF unless they got the upgrade. I know hydras are already pretty sick units though, so that may end badly. That imbalances everything else though lol- plus who dosent get the range upgrade if they build a pfort?
I don't.... unless its in a FFA or something.
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On June 23 2010 22:56 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 22:29 Zoltan wrote:On June 23 2010 22:26 DooMDash wrote:
What if they gave Hydras 7 range w/ the upgrade? This way Zerg could out range PF unless they got the upgrade. I know hydras are already pretty sick units though, so that may end badly. That imbalances everything else though lol- plus who dosent get the range upgrade if they build a pfort? I don't.... unless its in a FFA or something.
Slightly off topic, but +1 static defense range is one of my first upgrades VS Zerg in any game.
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i wrote a topic about defensive planetary fortresses 3 or 4 months ago. it was ridiculous back than. now tlo does this strategy and it suddenly becomes viable. you don't understand a thing about starcraft strategy. it costs 550 minerals. and does more damage than bionic units that cost 550 minerals. sometimes you can't hold your back entrance because terran is not mobile enough to deal with speedlings. it is viable in those situations.
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On June 23 2010 22:58 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 22:56 DooMDash wrote:On June 23 2010 22:29 Zoltan wrote:On June 23 2010 22:26 DooMDash wrote:
What if they gave Hydras 7 range w/ the upgrade? This way Zerg could out range PF unless they got the upgrade. I know hydras are already pretty sick units though, so that may end badly. That imbalances everything else though lol- plus who dosent get the range upgrade if they build a pfort? I don't.... unless its in a FFA or something. Slightly off topic, but +1 static defense range is one of my first upgrades VS Zerg in any game.
I would think armor might be more useful since most Zerg units don't do huge chunks of damage, plus it effects all your buildings. I suppose +1 turrets would be nice.
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+1 range is so important for preventing muta harass- its really a small gas investment for allowing your turrets to cover such a greater area. If im going to have a Pfort the +1 range is also a huge bonus. If you can fire into the 2nd row of hydras/roaches, you are going to do much more splash damage to the whole group than if you are firing at the first row only.
I get the armor upgrade after the range upg, because usually i throw down my eng bay only if i need turrets or a pfort, so im going to want the range on those turrets right away.
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Correct me if I am wrong but I believe they fixed the “PF does 150% splash damage” bug when they corrected the HSM bug as well.
That being said, the PF is not nearly as large of an investment as people claim it is if it is being used at a mining expansion since it’s only 150/150 at that point. If you do what TLO did and build like 50 of them at one base then yes they are a hefty investment for security.
However, a lot of players seem to think this game is all about killing your opponent right now and very few seem to realize that you need to wait to beat a turtling player. Now, this doesn’t mean never harass or be offensive, just don’t take you army and try to a-move it into his base. It takes almost a full minute for the building to construct in addition to the time it takes to set up the expansion. Assuming semi-decent scouting, you should be aware of it before it is completed. It is basically the Terran player saying “I’m mining from this base, get over it” which is not something the other races can’t do themselves. How many high level zerg games do you see where the Zerg builds a half a dozen spine crawlers at their nat on lost temple (and similar maps) to defend pushes, it is accomplishing the same thing – but nobody is complaining about that and it is a lot more common than the P-Fort.
What I don’t understand about these forums is that a couple months ago people were posting threads saying “SC2 needs 30 APM to play, there is literally no micro involved at all” and then 2 months later (nothing has changed game-wise) and the threads consist of “Waaah! I have to micro! It’s too hard!”
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Fight him where the static defenses aren't. In battle the enemy gets a vote, and victory always goes to the general who can control the terms of engagement. If terran sacrifices the opportunity cost to build an extra PF, zerg has the opportunity to gain either an economic or army advantage.
Just because something denies a tactic you want to use, it doesn't make it imba.
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Would making the Overseer contaminate ability stop the PF be to strong? Otherwise it might add a element to that match-up and give the Overseer further use.
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On June 23 2010 23:39 nihlon wrote:
Would making the Overseer contaminate ability stop the PF be to strong? Otherwise it might add a element to that match-up and give the Overseer further use.
Yes it would, when Contaminate was on the Corruptor it had the ability to do this but Corruptors were much more expensive and therefore not as readily available, even if it was by the simple virtue of their location in the tech tree. Overseers however, are available sooner, and cheaper, not to mention in much higher quantity. When the ability was moved over to them, its effectiveness had to be reduced to compensate for its new availability.
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On June 03 2010 19:35 ghen wrote:
I don't think its such a big deal. Zerg has 3 ways to bypass a PF. Drops, Nydus, and flying units. Attacking it head on with cheap ground units (most of zergs army) is silly because that's exactly what the PF counters.
How could you say nydus is a counter? the nydus would be able to kill a PF when the PF could attack it as it is being built. Please elaborate what you mean, also PFs could be in the main so nydus wouldn't really help.
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Planetary Fortress is great as it is, imo. Its 3-way usage as cc, static defense, and drop-offense, makes for interesting games. It's very powerful, but very costly too; it has major weaknesses.
If anything, I'd like to see more players use it in late game with 200/200 armies. To compensate for the lack of AA, always build a bunch of turrets around the PF and it almost becomes "invulnerable", with some repair support. To take out one of those becomes a mini-challenge.
I think the OP has one single main argument - aesthetics. Or what I'd care more about: map clutter. But yes, that's actually good, don't make it smaller please. Because it means it costs the Terran quite a lot of mobility and building area, plus once down he cannot move the PFs anymore, he has to kill them, if he needs the terrain.
Remember, even if you want, you cannot control too much how the good game compositions would evolve to look, and insist on making them pretty or cool. They will have a tendency to become "weird" anyway.
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EPT
