EPTI dont think its IMBA from my limited experience though. If it attacked air, ya it would be horribly imbalanced.
[D] Planetary Fortress, badly designed? - Page 6
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Sadist
United States7219 Posts
I dont think its IMBA from my limited experience though. If it attacked air, ya it would be horribly imbalanced. | ||
|
baytripper
United States170 Posts
On June 04 2010 03:19 HubertFelix wrote: I don't know, to kill SCVs or destroy an expand when you have the advantage? is that how you usually kill SCVs? attack the expo where their army already is? | ||
|
Vain
Netherlands1115 Posts
i think he means that a full bunker costs 4 rines at 1 supply each. that 4 supply could have been used as tanks if you're maxed | ||
|
HubertFelix
France631 Posts
On June 04 2010 03:35 baytripper wrote: is that how you usually kill SCVs? attack the expo where their army already is? Harassment, you know  | ||
|
Niten
United States598 Posts
On June 03 2010 19:54 Rabiator wrote: That depends largely on the design of the map and the positioning of the "ramp" to the main base. The PF only has range 6 (upgraded to 7) and that does NOT cover a lot of space. It is strong now? Errr ... only against Zerglings or Marines (one-shotting). The ridiculously slow rate of fire and its damage requires the PF to take two shots for a Hydralisk and even more for Roaches. It is only going to kill a lot of stuff if you have 20 SCVs repairing it, but then you can target-fire the SCVs and the Terran loses a lot more than a defensive structure. Sure the PF will kill early-mid assaults on it, but any late-game army will annihilate it in seconds, much too fast for the Terran to get his SCVs there to repair. Each race has units which outrange the PF and it doesnt even shoot air, so making it weaker means you are making it useless. The thing which annoys me most about the Planetary Fortress is its grand name compared to the rather meager damage output and boring weapon. I would prefer for the PF to have a defensive shield matrix (cf. Brood War) and a big cannon (cf. Thor), both of which use energy, plus some small infantry-like auto-fire. Sure the Fortress kills stuff early- and mid-game, but in the late game it has the survivability of a Depot. What a cool and great idea!! Adding a D-matrix onto the PF... holy shit, that'd be awesome. Seems wholly sensible for the PF to have such an ability in the lategame as the armies get quite big. But to respond to the OP, I agree that the PF seems a little robust for its cost and availability. Perhaps moving its unlockability to Factory instead of Engineering Bay would be better? | ||
|
SpicyCrab
402 Posts
| ||
|
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On June 04 2010 03:36 Vain wrote: i think he means that a full bunker costs 4 rines at 1 supply each. that 4 supply could have been used as tanks if you're maxed Tanks are 3 supply..? And that's a dumb analogy... but I can see him trying to use it On June 03 2010 19:54 Rabiator wrote: That depends largely on the design of the map and the positioning of the "ramp" to the main base. The PF only has range 6 (upgraded to 7) and that does NOT cover a lot of space. It is strong now? Errr ... only against Zerglings or Marines (one-shotting). The ridiculously slow rate of fire and its damage requires the PF to take two shots for a Hydralisk and even more for Roaches. It is only going to kill a lot of stuff if you have 20 SCVs repairing it, but then you can target-fire the SCVs and the Terran loses a lot more than a defensive structure. Sure the PF will kill early-mid assaults on it, but any late-game army will annihilate it in seconds, much too fast for the Terran to get his SCVs there to repair. Each race has units which outrange the PF and it doesnt even shoot air, so making it weaker means you are making it useless. The thing which annoys me most about the Planetary Fortress is its grand name compared to the rather meager damage output and boring weapon. I would prefer for the PF to have a defensive shield matrix (cf. Brood War) and a big cannon (cf. Thor), both of which use energy, plus some small infantry-like auto-fire. Sure the Fortress kills stuff early- and mid-game, but in the late game it has the survivability of a Depot. What you described isn't even somewhat relatively close to what happens. It's rate of fire isn't slow at all, it deals splash damage and OWNS hydralisks and stalkers, not to mention marines and zerglings. At the same time, the armor is so high that they do little dmg in return. It not only effectively shuts down harassment but can massively tank midsize armies. | ||
|
starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
| ||
|
darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
| ||
|
kajeus
United States679 Posts
Moreover, since when is Starcraft "a game in which units have clearly defined roles"? This definitely doesn't describe BW, in which there are quite a few catch-all units doing all sorts of things. In fact, that's what makes it interesting. | ||
|
Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
Doesn't anyone wonder why good terrans always seem to get OC's? That's right. Because they need the scans and extra income by Mule's (and ocassionally Drop Supply). But since TLO spammed PF's once it's imba? (did he even win that game?). First of all PF's are beaten in cost efficiency by photon cannons which for the same cost do more damage, shoot both ground and air and double as detector ... You can outrange the PF --> it's a 550/150 paperweight, attack it by air --> it's a 550/150 paperweight, attack it with cloaked units --> it's a 550/150 paperweight. Or you could just kill them before they turn into PF's, since a CC takes ages to build and then another age to morph it to a PF. But no! I have a better idea ... I will take my army and run it into his PF/ Siege tank/ Turret/ Bunker wall ... that ought to do the trick! :D ... wait what!? my army melted ... imba! So guys, let's try to adapt to the game rather than demanding it to adapt to our every demand. Because on a brighter note, when terrans begin leaving their bases defended by only turrets and PF's ... Ultralisks would become viable! Yeah. PS. To OP ... ofcourse Blizzard designs everything with a certain goal in mind (awesomess) but even in SC, the most balanced game ever according to SC fans, units and buildings were used in original ways to get an edge over the opponent. Muta stacking certainly wasn't a choice of design but people found out about it and used it to their advantage. When you get cannon/ bunker rushed, what are you going to do? Try to convince your opponent bunkers and cannons are for base defense only? Or that it's aesthatically unpleasant?  | ||
|
kcdc
United States2311 Posts
| ||
|
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On June 04 2010 05:17 Saechiis wrote: And the Terran imba shitstorm continues ... it seems to me that most people would rather complain on TL about everything they lost to, rather than finding a way to beat it. Seriously ... the Planetary Fortress? Doesn't anyone wonder why good terrans always seem to get OC's? That's right. Because they need the scans and extra income by Mule's (and ocassionally Drop Supply). But since TLO spammed PF's once it's imba? (did he even win that game?). First of all PF's are beaten in cost efficiency by photon cannons which for the same cost do more damage, shoot both ground and air and double as detector ... You can outrange the PF --> it's a 550/150 paperweight, attack it by air --> it's a 550/150 paperweight, attack it with cloaked units --> it's a 550/150 paperweight. Or you could just kill them before they turn into PF's, since a CC takes ages to build and then another age to morph it to a PF. But no! I have a better idea ... I will take my army and run it into his PF/ Siege tank/ Turret/ Bunker wall ... that ought to do the trick! :D ... wait what!? my army melted ... imba! So guys, let's try to adapt to the game rather than demanding it to adapt to our every demand. Because on a brighter note, when terrans begin leaving their bases defended by only turrets and PF's ... Ultralisks would become viable! Yeah. PS. To OP ... ofcourse Blizzard designs everything with a certain goal in mind (awesomess) but even in SC, the most balanced game ever according to SC fans, units and buildings were used in original ways to get an edge over the opponent. Muta stacking certainly wasn't a choice of design but people found out about it and used it to their advantage. When you get cannon/ bunker rushed, what are you going to do? Try to convince your opponent bunkers and cannons are for base defense only? Or that it's aesthatically unpleasant? I feel like your post was just a bunch of rambling. And I'd take a PF over 5 photon cannons as the PF does splash and can be repaired. | ||
|
Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On June 04 2010 05:17 Saechiis wrote: And the Terran imba shitstorm continues ... it seems to me that most people would rather complain on TL about everything they lost to, rather than finding a way to beat it. Seriously ... the Planetary Fortress? Doesn't anyone wonder why good terrans always seem to get OC's? That's right. Because they need the scans and extra income by Mule's (and ocassionally Drop Supply). But since TLO spammed PF's once it's imba? (did he even win that game?). First of all PF's are beaten in cost efficiency by photon cannons which for the same cost do more damage, shoot both ground and air and double as detector ... You can outrange the PF --> it's a 550/150 paperweight, attack it by air --> it's a 550/150 paperweight, attack it with cloaked units --> it's a 550/150 paperweight. Or you could just kill them before they turn into PF's, since a CC takes ages to build and then another age to morph it to a PF. But no! I have a better idea ... I will take my army and run it into his PF/ Siege tank/ Turret/ Bunker wall ... that ought to do the trick! :D ... wait what!? my army melted ... imba! So guys, let's try to adapt to the game rather than demanding it to adapt to our every demand. Because on a brighter note, when terrans begin leaving their bases defended by only turrets and PF's ... Ultralisks would become viable! Yeah. PS. To OP ... ofcourse Blizzard designs everything with a certain goal in mind (awesomess) but even in SC, the most balanced game ever according to SC fans, units and buildings were used in original ways to get an edge over the opponent. Muta stacking certainly wasn't a choice of design but people found out about it and used it to their advantage. When you get cannon/ bunker rushed, what are you going to do? Try to convince your opponent bunkers and cannons are for base defense only? Or that it's aesthatically unpleasant? I think you are overreacting. For example my comment on PF attack priority had nothing to do with race balance and everything to do with game balance. For the fun of the game I think PF attack priority should be removed. Like Morrow said you can just never attack it and expand yourself, but to keep SC2 a dynamic game there should at the very least be a slight possibility of attacking a PF with an army next to it if you have enough units to do so. Pretty sure a lot of the comments in this thread are made with this in mind and not so much pure race balance of saying T > P. | ||
|
Tuplex
80 Posts
| ||
|
DTown
United States428 Posts
| ||
|
Wolfpox
Canada164 Posts
If this becomes part of a standard Terran strategy, it will become anticipated, scouted, and prevented. There are certain strategies in SC1 that must be prevented as well, because they're so hard to stop once they're going. There are aesthetically bad things in pro SC1 games (muta clump) but we accept this. Realistically, if this became predictable, it would be important to scout and destroy their Engineering Bays early to prevent this upgrade, and missile turrets. EngBays don't even float in this game, so that's easier. Siege Tanks have higher range than the PF, and the Yamato Cannon can out-range it too. | ||
|
Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
I am overreacting, it's the hard counter to whiny people  That said I wasn't replying to anything in particular, I just felt that this would become another Terran imba thread and tried to pre-emptively nuke everyone with reasons the PF sucks (which it kinda does in comparison to the much cheaper OC).Ofcourse you have a point on the PF being an annoying attack priority. But in reality you barely see any PF's. Morphing to a PF means the player isn't confident in his ground army being able to withstand pressure. If he was confident he would have chosen the economic route. It almost gives the Zerg and Protoss a hint to the opponents army-composition, strength and confidence. In cases like TLO who was maxxed out and needed to dump his minerals it will be annoying, but in such late stages of the game Zerg should definately have Broodlords and Corrupters out to dominate. | ||
|
petered
United States1817 Posts
So when you say that the PF is not being used as intended, I actually think that is a good thing. It shows the strategic depth of the game. So I don't agree with the OP, but I definitely see the merits of lowering its attack priority. I think it would be fun to see more DoTA style turret dives to take out mules or key units or something. | ||
|
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On June 04 2010 06:43 Wolfpox wrote: I like this strategy... man TheLittleOne is hilarious. If this becomes part of a standard Terran strategy, it will become anticipated, scouted, and prevented. There are certain strategies in SC1 that must be prevented as well, because they're so hard to stop once they're going. There are aesthetically bad things in pro SC1 games (muta clump) but we accept this. Realistically, if this became predictable, it would be important to scout and destroy their Engineering Bays early to prevent this upgrade, and missile turrets. EngBays don't even float in this game, so that's easier. Siege Tanks have higher range than the PF, and the Yamato Cannon can out-range it too. I feel like the bold comment of your thread is anything but realistic... why would you possibly destroy their ebays when it can be remade so easily and repaired while being attacked? If you waste units killing the e-bay then their need for the P-fort is that much less... | ||
| ||
