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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126511
after reading this topic I had this idea.
It might not be the best idea but what about a forum where high platinum players talk about the real problems of the game, without noobish lowplatinum-and-below players (such as myself) posting nonesense.
that way, the blizzard people coming to teamliquid have fewer but better topics to read and don't have to figure out which players know their game and which ones are just rubbish.
(edit: maybe this would be better and easier to implement in the official forum, though^^)
edit2: another idea would be, if it is in any way possible, to be able to toggle between high-platinum-player posts and normal view. in this case everyone could post in the same forum, but you can choose also choose to see only the cream of the crop.
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The TL idea of properly supporting the garbage posts with high level replays / something to prove you have a clue was an attempt at solving this, but hasn't gone throught too well.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
it could work,but it would create(widen) a huge social gap among the noobs and pros
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
I'm partly in favor of this. On liquidpoker this works well. However I do feel that too many different subforums is a bad thing...
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On May 21 2010 19:44 Tone_ wrote:
The TL idea of properly supporting the garbage posts with high level replays / something to prove you have a clue was an attempt at solving this, but hasn't gone throught too well.
i thought that post was pretty much a joke -.- the fact so many people take it as a serious one proves the futility of such an attempt imo ^_^. High level plat players? where would they draw the line, im currently second in my plat but i know jack-shit about starcraft2. I'm sure there are lots worse players who could bring out much better points founded on more knowledge than i can.
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reading through the latest patch 13 thread this seems like a good idea, but how would we verify people? At the moment, there is really no way to know if someone is who he says he is unless you msg him on bnet.
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Bad idea. It's like saying "if you're pro, post here; if not, go to the noobs thread". I like it how it is now and stupid complaints from some lower players are always fun to read 
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This just reminds me of the backroom on Smashboards, which may or may not be a good thing.
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On May 21 2010 19:49 Beyonder wrote:
I'm partly in favor of this. On liquidpoker this works well. However I do feel that too many different subforums is a bad thing...
It partially works well because the forum is a lot smaller and its easy to know who are the main high stakes players and such. If you make it invite only you'd have a million applications and it'd be a huge work. If its open but the guidelines state that only good players should post it still becomes a bit of a mess with people claiming to be top platinum diamond division 9999.
Something definitely has to be done though, its understandable that new people migrating from other games have gotten used to less than well thought strategy questions and little to no content threads just because the forums are a lot smaller.
What about a forced "quiz" that requires you to read the guidelines very carefully before you are allowed to post? No idea if it would actually have any effect but right now its too easy to just click away and ignore the rules.
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Though I like this idea but I think it takes too much away from the average poster. If I was unable to view Jinro's and Nony's opinion on certain matters I would not be the player I am today. If there was a forum just for high level players I assume they'd mostly post in there and generally stray away from the average strategy forum. The amount of BS posts in the strategy forum would likely increase as well due to the decreased input from players who know what they're doing.
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*adamantly votes in favor of pro sub forum*
*gets rejected from posting in pro sub forum*
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The trouble is a lot of the "top" players post absolute nonsense too.
Just because you're good at the game doesn't necessarily mean you know how to balance it properly. A lot of the problem is that players become attached to certain races.
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I don't like this idea, there is no need really.
If an idiot makes a retarded thread then they'll get called out.
They either accept the wisdom of the gods or continue to wallow in filth.
Tossing all the non-leet dudes into a cesspool is not good for anyone and it's only going to make the higher tier players stop trying to teach these fools and instead just browse the sub-forum where the leet shines through.
And the above post is very true
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I don't like the idea of separating the community. And being top-platinum doesn't mean you can't be biased towards your race nor does it mean that you are good enough to talk about balance.
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On May 21 2010 19:54 iCCup.Nove wrote:
Though I like this idea but I think it takes too much away from the average poster. If I was unable to view Jinro's and Nony's opinion on certain matters I would not be the player I am today. If there was a forum just for high level players I assume they'd mostly post in there and generally stray away from the average strategy forum. The amount of BS posts in the strategy forum would likely increase as well due to the decreased input from players who know what they're doing.
I'd imagine a forum like this would be viewable by all, only postable by some.
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presumably the forum would be viewable by all, but only people above a certain rating (say 1850+ plat arbitrarily) would be able to post
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On May 21 2010 19:58 FC.Strike wrote:
presumably the forum would be viewable by all, but only people above a certain rating (say 1850+ plat arbitrarily) would be able to post
I think invite only would work better. I know that there are a few good players who don't have as many points as they could since they don't really ladder. Also, what happens if they fall below 1850?
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On May 21 2010 19:56 ToT)OjKa( wrote:
I don't like this idea, there is no need really.
If an idiot makes a retarded thread then they'll get called out.
They either accept the wisdom of the gods or continue to wallow in filth.
Tossing all the non-leet dudes into a cesspool is not good for anyone and it's only going to make the higher tier players stop trying to teach these fools and instead just browse the sub-forum where the leet shines through.
And the above post is very true
Unfortunately my friend this doesn't seem to be the case.
Let me explain. Lets use Voidrays as an example.
1. Idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. - He gets told how to counter and goes away.
2. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP.
3. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP.
3. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP.
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
202. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP.
Blizzard comes along and reads the TL forums. Oh well VR is clearly OP look at all these threads about how strong it is - we must nerf!
The problem with it is that there is just alot more noobs than what their is pros and also that alot of pros would rather play than cry.
This leads to a situation where noobs are screaming and they are all screaming and arguing with people who know better because they would rather cry than improve. Happens in all RTS games, unfortunately developers of a game listen to a stupid majority rather than an experienced minority.
SC2 is apparently destined to fail because of this, like so many other RTS games in the last 10 years. Shame but I guess if you wanna win you gotta play Terran 
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Arena junkies has this for wow arena. But I honestly can't say it improves the quality of their posts. And if you raise the bar to high it just leads to stagnation. All you really need to do is have the mods highlight good posts and I think they already do that.
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On May 21 2010 19:56 ToT)OjKa( wrote:
I don't like this idea, there is no need really.
If an idiot makes a retarded thread then they'll get called out.
They either accept the wisdom of the gods or continue to wallow in filth.
Tossing all the non-leet dudes into a cesspool is not good for anyone and it's only going to make the higher tier players stop trying to teach these fools and instead just browse the sub-forum where the leet shines through.
And the above post is very true
the problem is that the noob:good players ratio is so huge now. I was a d+ terran on iccup and I am fluctuating at around 1950 elo on sc2 ladder.
Maybe 3 years ago they'd get called out, but that's not gonna happen if everyone else is an idiot too.
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It's so stupid taking a beta version of a game and generalizing it to the games status 10 years from now.
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I like the idea. this might actually be nice for nonhigh ranked players too. To get more perspectives of highlevel players
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If TL just start to enforce their rules this wouldn't be a problem. Maybe they go easy on OPs because they know its beta but the overall quality of this forum is way below the TL standard. At least the TL BW forum I knew before SC2 beta was released. I think TL should resurrect their legendary alpha squadron to clean up this forum from bad posts. There are so many posts whining about balance over and over without a significant amount of replays or vods. And some of them disguise themselves as discussion threads but they should also require replays or vods. And if you want to discuss balance, show at least one replay or vod where you got the opposite result. Otherwise the discussion will just be another buff this and nerf that thread and not constructive discussion.
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On May 21 2010 20:06 cartoon]x wrote:
It's so stupid taking a beta version of a game and generalizing it to the games status 10 years from now.
How does that have anything to do with this? The quality of the forums has gone terribly down, not because the players are bad but rather because they have no intention to actually post well or spend time on thinking if they can actually contribute anything. You can be a good strategy forum poster without being better than the average wow player at the game.
Tef, the moderation is very very active and a lot of posts get removed all the time. The thing is that the userbase has gone through the roof lately and the moderator team hasn't grown in size at all. The amount of work is no doubt huge. Giving the very top players who've proven to also be good forum users rights to censor bad advice in the strategy forum would make the moderators job a bit easier but I have no idea if it would have some bad things attached to it.
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United States47024 Posts
The problem with this idea is that other than the express purpose of communicating balance issues to Blizzard, this sort of forum serves little to no purpose. If high-level players want to discuss their play in a closed setting, they have private forms of communication for that. If they want to present content, they can already do so in the more open format.
On May 21 2010 20:02 Necrosjef wrote:Unfortunately my friend this doesn't seem to be the case. Let me explain. Lets use Voidrays as an example. 1. Idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. - He gets told how to counter and goes away. 2. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. 3. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. 3. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. etc etc etc etc etc 202. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. Blizzard comes along and reads the TL forums. Oh well VR is clearly OP look at all these threads about how strong it is - we must nerf! The problem with it is that there is just alot more noobs than what their is pros and also that alot of pros would rather play than cry. This leads to a situation where noobs are screaming and they are all screaming and arguing with people who know better because they would rather cry than improve. Happens in all RTS games, unfortunately developers of a game listen to a stupid majority rather than an experienced minority. SC2 is apparently destined to fail because of this, like so many other RTS games in the last 10 years. Shame but I guess if you wanna win you gotta play Terran
In this context, the "pro-only subforum" is only useful as a means to bitch about balance to Blizzard. In terms of generating real content/discussion for the site, it would be fairly pointless.
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It's true what you say about mass threads with the same shit but that is sadly a case of moderating and just how much they can put their foot down and say
" NO, NO MORE VOID RAY SHIT, if you have trouble then please refer to this thread"
Maybe instead of a sub forum for gosu they should have a sub forum for each race, then you could have stickies by lovely members of this site for build orders and common troubles for x race vs x unit.
Although that idiots will still post shit but it will be a lot easier to see
"VOID RAY WTF"
and close the topic and link to the "VOID RAY WTF guide" thread and warn the idiot and tell him to learn to read and then offer to pay for some tuition and ting
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What is this? Some kind of support group for those who don't make it to diamond league? 
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That's stupid. Just as rating would say so much about skill. I know a 1900 rating guy getting beaten up by a 1400 rating guy every game because the last guy doesn't play so much ladder. Now even the 1900 rating guy is far from beeing maxed out on score because he plays few.
Unlike WoW Arena, for example, where the only way to train properly is to use the ladder, or poker where pretty much the same will apply, RTS players do not depend on the ladder to train, thus there will be many who do not have high ratings but still be extraordinary good.
A bit more extreme example: Check out WC3 ladder. There are almost no pro players at the top. Nobody ladders anymore. This might be because the ladder is tainted with cheaters, but was this way before as well. They just do not care about it because they have better practice partners via custom games.
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On May 21 2010 20:02 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:56 ToT)OjKa( wrote:
I don't like this idea, there is no need really.
If an idiot makes a retarded thread then they'll get called out.
They either accept the wisdom of the gods or continue to wallow in filth.
Tossing all the non-leet dudes into a cesspool is not good for anyone and it's only going to make the higher tier players stop trying to teach these fools and instead just browse the sub-forum where the leet shines through.
And the above post is very true Unfortunately my friend this doesn't seem to be the case. Let me explain. Lets use Voidrays as an example. 1. Idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. - He gets told how to counter and goes away. 2. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. 3. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. 3. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. etc etc etc etc etc 202. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. Blizzard comes along and reads the TL forums. Oh well VR is clearly OP look at all these threads about how strong it is - we must nerf!
You gotta be kidding me. Do you seriously think that blizzard blindly makes balance change based on how many people complain about it?
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I fully support this idea, would actually make reading strategy threads worthwhile and not an endless trawl for useful, justified and experienced opinion.
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I think this is an ok idea, high level players would be able to discuss strats with eachother more easily, not having to read 10 "newbie" posts and then 1 good one from another high level player hoping that player will see the response to his post since there will have been another 10-20 "newbie" posts in the meantime.
It would make reading threads less time consuming having to scroll down looking for a "known" player to see his opinion on it. In the end good and worse players can benefit from this. Though i dont really like the fact that some worse players cant make suggestions, sometimes they are good at theorycrafting but just not at the game.
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On May 21 2010 20:14 teekesselchen wrote:
That's stupid. Just as rating would say so much about skill. I know a 1900 rating guy getting beaten up by a 1400 rating guy every game because the last guy doesn't play so much ladder. Now even the 1900 rating guy is far from beeing maxed out on score because he plays few.
Unlike WoW Arena, for example, where the only way to train properly is to use the ladder, or poker where pretty much the same will apply, RTS players do not depend on the ladder to train, thus there will be many who do not have high ratings but still be extraordinary good.
A bit more extreme example: Check out WC3 ladder. There are almost no pro players at the top. Nobody ladders anymore. This might be because the ladder is tainted with cheaters, but was this way before as well. They just do not care about it because they have better practice partners via custom games.
Then make it invite only? Not a hard problem to solve.
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On May 21 2010 20:21 DanteStyle wrote:
I think this is an ok idea, high level players would be able to discuss strats with eachother more easily, not having to read 10 "newbie" posts and then 1 good one from another high level player hoping that player will see the response to his post since there will have been another 10-20 "newbie" posts in the meantime.
Maybe there could be an option like "hide all posts from players below rating XXX" combined with the need for a SC2 account name to be added in the account. What would only work as soon as there is some official or always up to date ladder page.
On May 21 2010 20:23 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 20:14 teekesselchen wrote:
That's stupid. Just as rating would say so much about skill. I know a 1900 rating guy getting beaten up by a 1400 rating guy every game because the last guy doesn't play so much ladder. Now even the 1900 rating guy is far from beeing maxed out on score because he plays few.
Unlike WoW Arena, for example, where the only way to train properly is to use the ladder, or poker where pretty much the same will apply, RTS players do not depend on the ladder to train, thus there will be many who do not have high ratings but still be extraordinary good.
A bit more extreme example: Check out WC3 ladder. There are almost no pro players at the top. Nobody ladders anymore. This might be because the ladder is tainted with cheaters, but was this way before as well. They just do not care about it because they have better practice partners via custom games. Then make it invite only? Not a hard problem to solve.
Ok, that sounds better. Would be alot of work for TL admins however.
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well they're adding a new Diamond league so it should be Diamond instead of Platinum.
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Attempts like these are futile.
You can attempt to devise a system that ensures quality posts all over, but the designer would have to have superior insight that could carry over to the design. How do you chose who would be fitting for these forums, and would they, once invited/qualified, be fit to comment on all balance aspects of the game? People's insight comes in different shapes and domains, and they might not be as knowledgeable as you expect them to be.
Solution is simple though, and is one that we already practice. When the amount of information is great the student has to filter quality from rubbish. This requires him to be a good student of course, but that is one ting you can always demand of your students - for them to engage in critical reviewing of the information. When enough advice is put to the table, most of the time anyone interested enough will be able to figure out which advice to go by. So fuck the 90% rubbish comments, someone eager to learn starcraft knows what to filter out. So does blizzard.
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On May 21 2010 20:29 jstar wrote:
well they're adding a new Diamond league so it should be Diamond instead of Platinum.
good example of why we could use an invite only forum
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How would choose who will get an invite?
Post count?
Bad idea. You'll exclude the new and the not so frequent posters who can have great ideas and skill.
Rank?
Also a bad idea. How will you know which account to associate? What would stop me from lying? Or maybe I had to befriend someone and validate through there? But how would you organize such a thing? And that would be fairly cumbersome to do.
Invite?
Sure invite those you know are great, but what about the other, unknown, greats? How will you locate them? How would you prevent an elit group to bounce ideas without other input? Surely you don't want to exclude great ideas which may very well come from the outside and the unknown. And how would you choose who to invite? People with great ideas but who aren't well-liked wouldn't stand much chance to any sort of community voting.
How would you create a good segregation? I don't know and that's why I don't support this idea.
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On May 21 2010 20:16 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 20:02 Necrosjef wrote:On May 21 2010 19:56 ToT)OjKa( wrote:
I don't like this idea, there is no need really.
If an idiot makes a retarded thread then they'll get called out.
They either accept the wisdom of the gods or continue to wallow in filth.
Tossing all the non-leet dudes into a cesspool is not good for anyone and it's only going to make the higher tier players stop trying to teach these fools and instead just browse the sub-forum where the leet shines through.
And the above post is very true Unfortunately my friend this doesn't seem to be the case. Let me explain. Lets use Voidrays as an example. 1. Idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. - He gets told how to counter and goes away. 2. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. 3. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. 3. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. etc etc etc etc etc 202. Another idiot makes a stupid thread about VR OP. Blizzard comes along and reads the TL forums. Oh well VR is clearly OP look at all these threads about how strong it is - we must nerf! You gotta be kidding me. Do you seriously think that blizzard blindly makes balance change based on how many people complain about it?
I don't think it.
I know its true.
Look at patch 11, 12 and now 13. All of those changes have been generated almost exclusively by noobs bitching on the official battle.net forums and on here.
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I think the admins should just handout more perm-bans really. All these temporary bans are too soft.
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good idea imo. filtering out the noise would do the game good, esp if blizzard was aware of it.
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To be honest what should be done is just to take IdrA, Nazgul, Nony, DeMuslim, MorroW etc and just sit down with a dozen or so top players and come up with a balance idea. Might not be perfect but it would be a better situation than what we have at the moment where everyone gets their 2 cents on balance and 99% of it is totally wrong.
Blizzard have proved catagorically that they can not be trusted to balance their own game. My suggestion is that the top players do it for em. Probably not going to happen but just sayin'.
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They already sit down with top players to get feedback. Blizzcon isn't the best place to do this. Perhaps they should have a Blizzard Summit instead where they invite the top players after the initial stages of the BETA and have more one on one time with them instead of meeting with the Press and Community Website Managers.
Either way, I don't think the Admins and Mods want this place to come off as more Elitist because many people already have that opinion.
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On May 21 2010 20:46 LawnMower wrote:
Invite?
Sure invite those you know are great, but what about the other, unknown, greats? How will you locate them? How would you prevent an elit group to bounce ideas without other input? Surely you don't want to exclude great ideas which may very well come from the outside and the unknown. And how would you choose who to invite? People with great ideas but who aren't well-liked wouldn't stand much chance to any sort of community voting.
How would you create a good segregation? I don't know and that's why I don't support this idea.
"unknown greats" is a made-up concept. You have to practice and play against other greats in high pressure situations to be great, it doesn't just happen by itself.
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On May 21 2010 20:58 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 20:46 LawnMower wrote:
Invite?
Sure invite those you know are great, but what about the other, unknown, greats? How will you locate them? How would you prevent an elit group to bounce ideas without other input? Surely you don't want to exclude great ideas which may very well come from the outside and the unknown. And how would you choose who to invite? People with great ideas but who aren't well-liked wouldn't stand much chance to any sort of community voting.
How would you create a good segregation? I don't know and that's why I don't support this idea. "unknown greats" is a made-up concept. You have to practice and play against other greats in high pressure situations to be great, it doesn't just happen by itself.
Of course.
But I mean unknown here on the forums.
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Reddit seems to have a developed an effective way to separate the wheat from the chaff (the ability to down-rank or up-rank posts).
You could even release some sort of system to weight the down/up rank by the 'rank' (ELO or whatever) of the person doing the ranking.
It would require a considerable amount of work, and probably wouldn't be possible unless Blizzard released some sort of API to its player data.
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That was already brought up on the feedback forums and it was shot down.
Look they already have a system in place. If you have a star beside your name it means you are a noteworthy poster.
It's pretty simple really. If you stuck around here for a while and have a good amount of posts then there ought to be a reason. Except for a few, i.e. baal (who seems to be gone) and CM. There is some consistency here.
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There doesn't need to be a separate forum but I can't believe blizzard hasn't been talking to the top players. They could even pay them minimum wage to play a ton of games on the asia server (where I heard siege tanks shoot air units) and make them do a bunch of podcasts discussing their thoughts. Treating the balancing act like a democracy is only killing the game. I can understand why a lot of lower level players think their opinion matters but the opinions of the top players matter substantially more. I know everyone thinks their a special snowflake but unfortuantely we live in reality. The top players took the time and had the discipline to get good at the game and therefore their opinions should pull more weight. If blizzard truly cares about the game then I think the correct process for improving it is clear.
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A lot of the high platinum players are still terrible players with horrible ideas though. A lot of them are just as stupid as lower ranks when it comes to what makes a balanced game, the difference is that they have more competency with RTS interfaces in general.
Even still, there's no correlation between having good ideas and being a good player. A lot of bad players have probably come up with great ideas from time to time. I think the only good way of cleaning up the forum and making sure stupid posts and posters are removed is to just go into Armageddon mode with the bans. I think the fear of being held responsible for your stupidity would rapidly straighten up the forum. Smart people will think twice and make sure what they are saying is beneficial to discussion, dumb people will be culled without remorse or sympathy
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On May 21 2010 21:02 ethos wrote:
Reddit seems to have a developed an effective way to separate the wheat from the chaff (the ability to down-rank or up-rank posts).
You could even release some sort of system to weight the down/up rank by the 'rank' (ELO or whatever) of the person doing the ranking.
It would require a considerable amount of work, and probably wouldn't be possible unless Blizzard released some sort of API to its player data.
Giving posts a score like that is an option. But slashdot has a very nice system in place that is more suited to the discussion that take place here. And that system has proved to work well for many years now. It is quite a lot of work to implement, though.
I think TL is doing quite fine. You got to give some room for people to shout as there always will be people doing that, more so during beta with all the theorycrafting and patches. There is plenty of proper discussion going on but it is diluted by a crazy amount of bad posts from a high amount of bad posters. If there were single users on the site with a lot of bad posts, it would be much easier to single them out for a ban, but right now it just needs to die down a bit by itself. The end of beta will bring major change I'm sure. Once SC2 is out, there should be less speculating going on and moderators can be more strict with the rules.
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if you really want to improve the quality of this forum then you need a system like yahoo clever has or any other system that rewards good posting. (youtube also has sth like this)
maybe something like this:
- the owners and veterans of this forum get the ability to rate posts
- if a user has been rated "good" enough times then he also gets the ability to rate
- if a user has been rated "bad" enough times then he might get warnings etc.
- a search function to find high rated posts.
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On May 21 2010 21:08 floor exercise wrote:
A lot of the high platinum players are still terrible players with horrible ideas though. A lot of them are just as stupid as lower ranks when it comes to what makes a balanced game, the difference is that they have more competency with RTS interfaces in general.
Even still, there's no correlation between having good ideas and being a good player. A lot of bad players have probably come up with great ideas from time to time. I think the only good way of cleaning up the forum and making sure stupid posts and posters are removed is to just go into Armageddon mode with the bans. I think the fear of being held responsible for your stupidity would rapidly straighten up the forum. Smart people will think twice and make sure what they are saying is beneficial to discussion, dumb people will be culled without remorse or sympathy
there is almost certainly a correlation...
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On May 21 2010 21:08 floor exercise wrote:
A lot of the high platinum players are still terrible players with horrible ideas though. A lot of them are just as stupid as lower ranks when it comes to what makes a balanced game, the difference is that they have more competency with RTS interfaces in general.
Even still, there's no correlation between having good ideas and being a good player. A lot of bad players have probably come up with great ideas from time to time. I think the only good way of cleaning up the forum and making sure stupid posts and posters are removed is to just go into Armageddon mode with the bans. I think the fear of being held responsible for your stupidity would rapidly straighten up the forum. Smart people will think twice and make sure what they are saying is beneficial to discussion, dumb people will be culled without remorse or sympathy
That's true and a lot of great ideas in history have come from normal people, but in order to filter out the noise it's easier just to go to college professors and experts in the field. Sure some random guy probably had the idea for nony's phoenix build but his mechanics were probably awful so he ditched the build. Because of the sure volume of bs that everyone is posting someone is bound to be right. Then something changes in the patch and a ton of people scream that they're prophets because they spit out an essay of garbage and one of their prophecies comes true.
"A lot of high platinum players are still terrible players. . ."
sigh
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Except now it's the high "Diamond" league players.
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On May 21 2010 21:10 Badjas wrote:
Giving posts a score like that is an option. But slashdot has a very nice system in place that is more suited to the discussion that take place here. And that system has proved to work well for many years now. It is quite a lot of work to implement, though.
I think TL is doing quite fine. You got to give some room for people to shout as there always will be people doing that, more so during beta with all the theorycrafting and patches. There is plenty of proper discussion going on but it is diluted by a crazy amount of bad posts from a high amount of bad posters. If there were single users on the site with a lot of bad posts, it would be much easier to single them out for a ban, but right now it just needs to die down a bit by itself. The end of beta will bring major change I'm sure. Once SC2 is out, there should be less speculating going on and moderators can be more strict with the rules.
Hrm, yah that's true. Slashdot's system does seem more conducive to discussion.
Unless you give people the option they seem to default to ranking people based on wittiness and the forum degenerates into a popularity contest.
Nevertheless I am definitely in favor of a system to help people filter out the nonsense. Before it may not have required much work on the user, but these days...
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The criticism repeated over and over that sometimes high platinum players have bad ideas or lower rated players have good ones has no merit. The idea is to improve the signal to noise ratio, not remove 100% of the noise.
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or there should be the possibilty of becoming a "premium" member, if you have posted some really good guides, or where active with a lot of helpful comments.
With funky colors and all that.
Would be much work for the staff to look&appoint such guys, perhaps a propose button near each account would be helpful so you have ranking to see how many ppl thought that this guy knows what hes talking about.
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for those complaining about this suggestion, I already (and I assume many other vets who think that 1600 plat is lol) filter through and look for users that we recognize before reading these posts. I think this would just be a formality.
and pretty much everything in the sc2 forum right now is dominated by ppl with less than 100 posts and don't really understand rts gaming very well.
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On May 21 2010 20:04 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Arena junkies has this for wow arena. But I honestly can't say it improves the quality of their posts. And if you raise the bar to high it just leads to stagnation. All you really need to do is have the mods highlight good posts and I think they already do that.
Arena is far more simple though.
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blizz employees wouldn't have access to such a forum because they're all atrocious noobs
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I agree with creating a sub forum exclusive for platinum, blizz employes even though i'm neither. I'm all for the better balancing of the game. It's a great idea, worth of consideration at least.
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(sorry my bad - double post)
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You do realize you just quoted yourself, right?
Okay, that's better.
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On May 21 2010 19:54 iCCup.Nove wrote:
Though I like this idea but I think it takes too much away from the average poster. If I was unable to view Jinro's and Nony's opinion on certain matters I would not be the player I am today. If there was a forum just for high level players I assume they'd mostly post in there and generally stray away from the average strategy forum. The amount of BS posts in the strategy forum would likely increase as well due to the decreased input from players who know what they're doing. I don't believe they're saying it should be hidden from us plebeians, but rather that we should be able to view it, but not post there. That said, I don't have an opinion because I'm new here and don't thing I should have a say yet .
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One problem is that you can have high platinum players that are more biased and contribute less to balance because they want to win with their race. Or a silver player that has 100 apm and thus can't do everything all the time, but realizes that most of his losses are because of that or because he met a better player.
Just because someone is a better player doesn't mean they are good at balancing or that their suggestions are worth anything, but it will definitely reduce the "I lost to something, nerf it" spam that some bad players use.
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On May 21 2010 23:01 Lobo2me wrote:
One problem is that you can have high platinum players that are more biased and contribute less to balance because they want to win with their race. Or a silver player that has 100 apm and thus can't do everything all the time, but realizes that most of his losses are because of that or because he met a better player.
Just because someone is a better player doesn't mean they are good at balancing or that their suggestions are worth anything, but it will definitely reduce the "I lost to something, nerf it" spam that some bad players use.
you can be high plat with 100 apm easy, not very hard
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On May 21 2010 23:01 Lobo2me wrote:
One problem is that you can have high platinum players that are more biased and contribute less to balance because they want to win with their race. Or a silver player that has 100 apm and thus can't do everything all the time, but realizes that most of his losses are because of that or because he met a better player.
Just because someone is a better player doesn't mean they are good at balancing or that their suggestions are worth anything, but it will definitely reduce the "I lost to something, nerf it" spam that some bad players use.
This. Good players (in other sports) dont always become good coaches (for example). Know how to play doesnt mean you understand what is behind what you do. How many players just copy BO and get wins because they perfect their use? Would you rather have someone that only knows how to win with an Immortal timing push giving balance opinions or someone who reads and adapts to what he sees in game and tries to learn from his losses? I think the first player would just complain that banshees are OP because immortals cant shoot them while the second would start building stalkers and probably a stargate. I used obvious exaggerations on this post but it was just to show my point because this doesnt happen with all good players, theres a good number of them that understand the game better than the average player and that lets them win.
Balance wise they will tend to favor their races imho!
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It would be nice if this is realized after release and only people in the higher 'Pro' league are invited.
P.S. Whoops sorry i didn't realise that there is one already.. It hasn't patched yet here..
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This subforum (diamond players only) would be extremely useful to players plat and below who have a hard time sifting the gems of advice from the pile of crap currently avaliable.
Or a silver player that has 100 apm and thus can't do everything all the time, but realizes that most of his losses are because of that or because he met a better player I play top-ranked silvers through mid-ranked plats and they pretty much all have between 50 and 80 apm. I rewatch all my losses and have never seen over 100.
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I think I'd be able to get in, so I'm all for this.
Does that make me too elitist?
Actually even if I didn't get in I still think it would be a good idea. There's so many trash players in platinum, and people who are in platinum think they are good and give garbage advice all the time. Being in platinum (oops I mean diamond) doesn't mean much really.
But maybe once retail hits, diamond league will actually only contain the better players in the community.
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Alot of assumptions made in the OP, you assume that most platinum players can express their opinion in a non-biased way and that they can look at the bigger picture rather than their own race.
You also assume that all of the platinum players are the top players, trust me alot of them are not. Some of them got there by abusing 1 strat or by doing well in placement matches. They have very shallow understanding of the game.
Main point is that it has to be more criterias than being a plat player to be able to voice your opinion in an exclusive forum.
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Anything that willstop hundreds of 1500 rating players with 20 posts making threads about void rays.
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Completely unnecessary idea. It even reeks a little of the smash bros "backroom" forum or whatever it's called. The more democratic approach used on this site is a large boon to the userbase whom feels equally as important (as a recognized forum user entity) as any pro. Distinctions between users are made on the human level based on accomplishments and intellect and thus pros do not need to be arbitrarily raised up on a pedestal by the system. In short, we do not need to add needless bureaucracy and forced elitism simply to solve a problem that could be fixed with increased moderator activity.
I believe an earlier post said that this was brought up a while ago as a suggestion and shot down. I'm thankful that the people who run this site are such intelligent fore-thinkers.
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Rather than creating a subforum, low skilled players should have a common sense and not complain (make a new thread) about something we (low skilled guys) dont know... like OMGZ ROFL VOID RAY OP LOLOL NERF
Thats what I do, I know no shit about strategy in SC2, and Im aware of that, so how could I possibly comment/complain about something i dont know?
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would be nice to discuss something other than how to deal with void rays Z/TvsP
On May 22 2010 00:22 PacketOverflow wrote:
Completely unnecessary idea. It even reeks a little of the smash bros "backroom" forum or whatever it's called. The more democratic approach used on this site is a large boon to the userbase whom feels equally as important (as a recognized forum user entity) as any pro. Distinctions between users are made on the human level based on accomplishments and intellect and thus pros do not need to be arbitrarily raised up on a pedestal by the system. In short, we do not need to add needless bureaucracy and forced elitism simply to solve a problem that could be fixed with increased moderator activity.
I believe an earlier post said that this was brought up a while ago as a suggestion and shot down. I'm thankful that the people who run this site are such intelligent fore-thinkers.
The problem is there's more idiot newb posts that are "theorizing" something as opposed to the good players actually trying different strategies out. For every 5 or so "what's better to do? 9 Overlord or 11 Overlord?" threads there's maybe one quality discussion thread usually created by the same 4-5 people.
I don't want to hear about why mid-gold or silver players think the roach is imbalanced and discuss it for god knows how long.
Democracy fails when the majority consists of the bad players lol.
Also Beyonder, there's no way to make a forum appear invisible unless you have rights to view it? Such as the mafia forum? It would be like a VIP SC2 Discussion and strategy forum, just combine the two.
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There's not enough moderation. If you go to say the patch notes discussion thread, about a third of the people in there deserve temporary bans, yet there's usually only a few in the beginning of the thread.
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On May 22 2010 00:28 fabiano wrote:
Rather than creating a subforum, low skilled players should have a common sense and not complain (make a new thread) about something we (low skilled guys) dont know... like OMGZ ROFL VOID RAY OP LOLOL NERF
Thats what I do, I know no shit about strategy in SC2, and Im aware of that, so how could I possibly comment/complain about something i dont know?
too many bad players are in platinum and think being in platinum entitles them to educate everyone about their opinions -_-
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TL in it's entirety used to be something like that for BW. I still feel like most people in the BW forum know a lot about the game.
In the SC2 forum there are sooooo many people, it's kind of ruined.
On May 21 2010 19:49 Beyonder wrote:
I'm partly in favor of this. On liquidpoker this works well. However I do feel that too many different subforums is a bad thing...
At first sight I don't like the idea of too many subforums either. But I guess the thing that I'd worry about is that there isn't enough activity in one of the subforums. Right now, there is so much activity in the SC2 forums that it feels like a waste of time to just post there. Every random topic gets like 5 pages of replies within an hour. I read TL a lot, but still I stumble over a lot of interesting topics in which I don't want to post anymore because it got derailed already with everybody and their mother writing walls of text full of silver league I'm-new-to-rts opinions.
There is absolutely no useful discussion at all in the SC2 forums right now. If Blizzard really listens to TL in general, which isn't better than listening to the Bnet forums right now, it would explain why they patch the game with the consistency of a headless chicken.
Maybe the admins should compare user numbers for the BW forums during all of TL's existence and compare them to the SC2 forum activity right now. Then you can decide whether there is room for more subforums. And it would probably be a better idea to create a forum with a generally much higher standard of posting, instead of focusing on certain player skills. That's how TL used to work years ago. The good old "even though you put a lot of effort into your post, your opinion is bullshit and you are banned" reasoning.
Nice quote I found on that topic:
On November 05 2004 04:37 Legionnaire wrote:
and dont give us that wgtour newbie crap here.
For halpmeh.com you needed to get the password sent by email individually. That's how small the community was back then. I was looking for the pw when I found that quote. Think it was some ghost or firebat sentence.
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I like the idea somewhat, it's a little bit like EJ/BG/Arenathingy where they are very very harsh on post quality.
BG in particular split it's discussions up into standard/advanced and had a requirement that you needed x amount of posts to be able to use it and threads had to be for a specific issue with supporting evidence. ( something like 200 posts to make a thread in advanced, 100 to reply - with a harsh banstick ).
While the OP's suggestion is a bit "what's your rating?" an advanced forum if well moderated and thought out is a nice thing to have.
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Calgary25980 Posts
I'm against it. I feel you don't have to be a good player to understand good play. And you don't have to understand good play to have results.
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On May 22 2010 00:33 Amber[LighT] wrote:
The problem is there's more idiot newb posts that are "theorizing" something as opposed to the good players actually trying different strategies out. For every 5 or so "what's better to do? 9 Overlord or 11 Overlord?" threads there's maybe one quality discussion thread usually created by the same 4-5 people.
I don't want to hear about why mid-gold or silver players think the roach is imbalanced and discuss it for god knows how long.
Democracy fails when the majority consists of the bad players lol.
Also Beyonder, there's no way to make a forum appear invisible unless you have rights to view it? Such as the mafia forum? It would be like a VIP SC2 Discussion and strategy forum, just combine the two.
Again, this is a problem solved by increased rule enforcement (they aren't supposed to be "theorizing" without lots of good replays) and making people more aware of the search function. There is no need to pile on another level of complexity to how the site works or segregate users at all.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/839/th1256340887656.gif)
