EPTOh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 58
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ForKvatch
United States54 Posts
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
On April 29 2010 15:25 Rabiator wrote: Who said there had to be new micro? Oh and you actually can do new funky stuff with the queued commands, but that isnt clicky-hungry enough for you I suppose. Burrowing injured Roaches from your pack during the fight and blinking Stalkers apparently isnt enough micro for you, but then nobody forces you to buy the game. I have already seen a TvT with both of them getting Thors and dropping them onto the others base. The result was like a gunfight from a Western ... whoever activated his 250mm strike cannon faster (stun + 500 dmg = dead opposing Thor) won the duel. No new micro indeed ... just not the stuff you are looking for. How long exactly did it take to find out about the moving Muta shot and stacking in BW? Years if my information is correct. The point is we know about that stuff now. We're not as ignorant of rts mechanics as we were when bw was released. We know what made it a great game, and we see some of those aspects missing from sc2. How long do you think that thor mechanic in tvt will keep the matchup interesting? Will the timing of one large ability keep the game fresh for a long time? What makes some of the micro exciting is that it is so easy to make small mistakes that will influence the outcome of an encounter, but when everything is done correctly beautiful things can happen. Is burrowing roaches still really viable after all the nerfs it has gotten? Has anyone successfully shown this to make a difference lately, especially after the hivetech upgrade? Roaches are so spammable that the damage you lose from burrowing them seems to outweigh the gains in keeping the roach alive. Blinking stalkers is interesting to me, although I know many have complained. I've only seen it really used in blink-rush builds that solely use stalkers. If people actually can do it in larger engagements while still doing everything else I think it could be exciting. | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
BroodWar is amazing, I love watching it, playing it on the other hand, is fighting the engine, the units, and your hands. Dragoon control isn't micro so much as forcing it to not be retarded. That's skill, but fun it is not. Don't tell me you never wanted to strangle a blizzard programmer as you watched a dragoon fail to fire or mindlessly get stuck on a building. Starcraft 2 is amazing, I love watching it and I enjoy playing it. I feel I have more control, simply because I am not fighting with the AI every time I move. While I do agree with some changes(ala: would love to see a tad faster phoenix control) I think alot of things are just fine. Hellion micro is amazing to watch and requires you to think ahead of time to get the angle to roast a line of drones or zerglings also allowing your enemy to do the same to counter-act the power of a linear splash attack. And yes Hellions die quickly to properly guarded bases, just like vultures, what is the problem? Overall I think sc2 is more of a thinking man's game, which I don't feel is a bad thing. Beta is a good time to be explaining problems but I think alot of it is just you and many others wanting broodwar in 3d. It sounds great in theory till you realize how damn annoying alot of that is. Once again the dragoon comes to mind. It's fun to watch, but not fun to play and in the end Blizzard is making a game to play not just to watch. Perhaps I am just crazy but I love sc2 and I love broodwar. Why can't you love both? | ||
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ZergOwaR
Norway280 Posts
On April 29 2010 15:47 Rokk wrote: The point is we know about that stuff now. We're not as ignorant of rts mechanics as we were when bw was released. We know what made it a great game, and we see some of those aspects missing from sc2. How long do you think that thor mechanic in tvt will keep the matchup interesting? Will the timing of one large ability keep the game fresh for a long time? What makes some of the micro exciting is that it is so easy to make small mistakes that will influence the outcome of an encounter, but when everything is done correctly beautiful things can happen. Is burrowing roaches still really viable after all the nerfs it has gotten? Has anyone successfully shown this to make a difference lately, especially after the hivetech upgrade? Roaches are so spammable that the damage you lose from burrowing them seems to outweigh the gains in keeping the roach alive. Blinking stalkers is interesting to me, although I know many have complained. I've only seen it really used in blink-rush builds that solely use stalkers. If people actually can do it in larger engagements while still doing everything else I think it could be exciting. well yeah we know about rts mechanics, but that doesn't mean there will never be discovered new tricks in sc2, like the thor drop... someone has been thinking, and i bet blizzard didnt expect that fully. how about the reaver drop in BW? It was said that the reaver was never ever inteded for such work, just some nerd in the world that figured it out. same with moving a worker through the temples? that bit was fun to watch even if it failed  I can understand that many here want air combat to be more like the old sc, it does look damn cool, but at some point in the OP he made it seem that he just wanted SC:BW with better graphics and that kinda made it feel more like a well documented rant, but a rant nontheless. I have seen some pretty wild micro thus far, micro that made/broke the game. like a cool zerglings vs less zerglings + 1 baneling. i would love to see more micro like that | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 29 2010 15:38 scwizard wrote: What I'm disappointed by, is that blizzard hasn't mentioned this key issue before, and given their thinking behind their decision making. I think this is the major issue for me. I wouldn't mind so much that it was gone so long as I knew there was a good reason for WHY it was gone. | ||
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mfukar
Greece41 Posts
On April 29 2010 01:40 LaLuSh wrote: Haha nice find. I recall reading somewhere that they weren't necessarily expecting to make a profit out of SC2. Profit would be an added bonus. So the ones going on about "Blizzard only wants to make money", need to rethink. I recall someone, somewhere, attributing some words to someone without a proper source. Know what I called him? Idiot. | ||
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mfukar
Greece41 Posts
On April 29 2010 03:01 Half wrote: Dustin Browder was a lead designer on that xD Hope? Of course. Despite of what many will have you believe, Browder is a human being too. He's capable of good things, but he will no doubt disappoint others. ;-) | ||
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madnessman
United States1581 Posts
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grfan
Romania3 Posts
- Linux is dedicated for fans and people who really appreciate his strength as an OS. - Windows is dedicated mostly for commercial purpose. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On April 29 2010 11:19 PanzerDragoon wrote: So you just cherry-pick which "pros" you want to listen to (basically, the ones that concur with the viewpoint you already held) and ignore the pros that might disagree with you (Nony, Day9, Drone, etc) Yeah. That's totally what he did. WoW. | ||
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pheus
Australia161 Posts
On April 29 2010 18:27 mfukar wrote: Of course. Despite of what many will have you believe, Browder is a human being too. He's capable of good things, but he will no doubt disappoint others. ;-) Really depends if he is designing for the top level gamers or the lowest common denominator. I think we both know what it looks like so far. One interesting thing I have noticed is that every micro example I've seen for sc2 so far is for very small engagements, 1 unit vs 2 units, a hand full of stalkers, a single hellion or something like that. Those using those examples to back up their support of the current micro in sc2: Do you think micro only has a place in the first 5 minutes of a Starcraft game? *edit* also, considering it IS a beta, what argument can be made against *trying* moving shot (or any other micro sugggestions) for even a week or so. Is that not the point of the beta, to try things out before the game goes retail and it's harder to change. | ||
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Kim_Hyun_Han
706 Posts
blizzard employees want to know if they should implement moving shot and muta micro again or not | ||
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Snake626
United States2 Posts
On April 29 2010 11:59 Xenocide_Knight wrote: If starcraft broodwar was a flashlight, sc2 is like giving someone a candle and then telling them to innovate to the level of the flashlight. There is no new micro in sc2 They just removed the majority of micro from sc:bw thats that Sorry, Ill just mention a few that have already been discovered. Blink micro, Roach burrow, Sentry Force field, kiting with reapers up and down cliffs. Im sorry you are correct in your saying that there will be no new micro in sc2, I dont want to stupid glitches of making patrol and spam clicking the screen to rev my apm to 300+ to do things theyre not meant to do. Your ignorant in saying that broodwar was a flashlight, It was a busted flashlight that didnt even do what it was supposed to, but you liked it because it made some cool effect. Starcraft 2 is a flashlight that has yet to be discovered what it can possibly do. So instead of making such outworldy assumptions, Play the game and invent them. | ||
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lamo
Lithuania17 Posts
I saw this in the HDH tournament a few times where 1 probe could delay the zerg expansion with 2 drones until zerglings came out. The probe "micro" was spamming waypoints and putting down a pylon from time to time to recharge shield. That only requires 100 apm and impossible for zerg to do anything. SC2 won't be as competative as SC1 was :/ | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 28 2010 21:16 LaLuSh wrote: No, and I even acknowledge those changes as good ones. Most people do after having played the game. If anything, the fact that we embraced certain changes but didn't like the absence of moving shot, should strengthen our argument. We tried the game. We liked certain changes and certain innovations. We thought the absence of moving shot was a step in the wrong direction. Maybe we aren't the nostalgic brainless fanatics you think we are after all? Who is "we"? and why do you phrase the original post as if moving shot was the only micro that mattered (the title suggests that there is no more micro, but the only argument you bring is moving shot)? While I may agree that bringing moving shot back wont be such a big deal I think there are much bigger problems in SC2 which affect the gameplay negatively. Why does it make sense to get rid of stacking air units when ground units are enabled to do almost the same thing? The increased damage density does effectively kill all strategic and defensive play on larger maps, because it is not feasible to build enough defenses to survive against a "typical" SC2 task force (usually at least 70-80% of all troops of one player). Having no viable option for defensive play will practically kill large scale maps and the "instant reinforcement / movement options" for Protoss / Zerg will add to the problem of not being able to defend on a large scale. Obviously this mostly hurts Terrans, who have a large part of their army specialized on immobility. Watching BW matches you can see spread out forces, but every SC2 battle is between tight balls of units on just a portion of a screen. That is the much bigger problem than moving shot IMO. Countermeasures (all area attacks / splash damage) to tight balls get nerfed to be "fair" to these packed formations ... | ||
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lamo
Lithuania17 Posts
On April 29 2010 20:09 Rabiator wrote: Who is "we"? and why do you phrase the original post as if moving shot was the only micro that mattered (the title suggests that there is no more micro, but the only argument you bring is moving shot)? While I may agree that bringing moving shot back wont be such a big deal I think there are much bigger problems in SC2 which affect the gameplay negatively. Why does it make sense to get rid of stacking air units when ground units are enabled to do almost the same thing? The increased damage density does effectively kill all strategic and defensive play on larger maps, because it is not feasible to build enough defenses to survive against a "typical" SC2 task force (usually at least 70-80% of all troops of one player). Having no viable option for defensive play will practically kill large scale maps and the "instant reinforcement / movement options" for Protoss / Zerg will add to the problem of not being able to defend on a large scale. Obviously this mostly hurts Terrans, who have a large part of their army specialized on immobility. Watching BW matches you can see spread out forces, but every SC2 battle is between tight balls of units on just a portion of a screen. That is the much bigger problem than moving shot IMO. Countermeasures (all area attacks / splash damage) to tight balls get nerfed to be "fair" to these packed formations ... You just said yourself that it is hard to defend, while the thread clearly defined how moving shot helps to defend or have a chance against larger armies. Moving shot is the biggest issue, because atm the fate of a battle is mainly defined by unit composition and size rather than the ability to control it. | ||
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 29 2010 20:05 lamo wrote: "How the hell do you expect Jaedong to switch over to this game if he, even with the most perfect control and anticipation, can’t prevent a 100 apm noob from delaying his expansion? Do you really expect the Koreans to switch over from a perfect game to one that lacks even the most basic control? Are you all deluded?" I saw this in the HDH tournament a few times where 1 probe could delay the zerg expansion with 2 drones until zerglings came out. The probe "micro" was spamming waypoints and putting down a pylon from time to time to recharge shield. That only requires 100 apm and impossible for zerg to do anything. SC2 won't be as competative as SC1 was :/ i think the drones can stop the probe but its harder than in sc1 not only because the probe needs 0 control but also because u cant run and attack with drone, the drone also dont have range and u pretty much have to be in-range before u click attack else it may just slide or collide with the probe without an attack but afaik when u put down shift-moves with the probe or workers in general they slow down all the time because of the acceleration, thats how it is with my scvs when i scv scout anyway blizzard should really make micro more significant because its 10 times less than in wc3 and sc1 :/ | ||
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lamo
Lithuania17 Posts
 I don't posses the micro to pull off such high micro intense moves, but I still want to watch tournaments where progamers are godlike, because atm the games aren't as much fun to watch as it was with sc1. | ||
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Rus_Brain
Russian Federation1893 Posts
I have translated your article into Russian. See reps.ru Hope you don't mind Many thanks for you article. Truly yours, Kirill | ||
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