EPTOh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 16
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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funnybananaman
United States830 Posts
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mrdx
Vietnam1555 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:19 fulmetljaket wrote: is there anyone here to played the SC / SC:BW beta? if not i really think you should all just wait and see what happens. wait until SC2 has 12 years of development, and then complain. seems to make a bit more sense to me Certain things need time to tell (balance, metagame....) But there are other aspects that you can realize right away - the lack of the move shot and how it affected the game, as LaLush excellently pointed out, is one of those. If we just say to ourselves "let's wait for 12 years to see how it will turn out" everytime we encounter a fundamental issue in the beta, the whole idea of us SC1 community doing beta testing SC2 would be almost useless. As a community of a 12 year old game, it's up to US to voice what we think could make significant improvements to its sequel. Why passively wait when we could make a change? We already have 12 year of experience in observing the evolution of SC1, we should apply that experience to contribute to SC2, NOW. | ||
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GaMeOfFeAr
United States26 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:24 Spazer wrote: Just because it's a new game doesn't mean that it can't have some elements similar to BW beyond "you need to macro and micro". Obviously something was done right with BW - it'd be stupid to just ignore everything that could be learned from the most successful RTS in the past decade. Besides, I don't really think Lalush is arguing that the balance should be exactly the same as Broodwar's. It's arguing more for improved unit control, which, in his examples, is the moving shot. What was done right was years and years of stringent gameplay + excellently balanced maps by the community. And even Starcraft 1 has its flaws in terms of unit diversity, which is practically non existent. The moving shot was a nice discovery of SC1, but ultimately unnecessary in SC2. The main issue is the units themselves, and their capacity to both do heavy damage and keep units from retreating (Forcefield, Marauder slow, Zerg Creep). If those were in SC1, moveshooting would be just as irrelevant. | ||
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mOnion
United States5660 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:31 GaMeOfFeAr wrote: What was done right was years and years of stringent gameplay + excellently balanced maps by the community. And even Starcraft 1 has its flaws in terms of unit diversity, which is practically non existent. The moving shot was a nice discovery of SC1, but ultimately unnecessary in SC2. The main issue is the units themselves, and their capacity to both do heavy damage and keep units from retreating (Forcefield, Marauder slow, Zerg Creep). If those were in SC1, moveshooting would be just as irrelevant. um, nuh uh? muta micro was still incredibly potent in ZvP even though maelstrom existed. also maps weren't made by the community, they were made by professionals in KoreaLand | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
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Fallen
Canada192 Posts
Have you seen that bob vs idra game? if thats not a micro win im not sure what to tell you. There's countless example! Leave brood war behind guys, this is a new game. Stop comparing them you're wasting your time and breath. | ||
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Storm[PT]
120 Posts
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
he moves from thread to thread proclaiming each of them to be "worthless complain threads" as he exits he returns to his blizzard fanboy shrine to attempt resurrection ceremonies of bill roper | ||
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BigDatez
Canada434 Posts
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:26 Ballistixz wrote: im arguing what you said about corsairs being good because of moving shots mainly. you tried to compare corsairs to phoenixes in your post which is not a fair comparison at all. i then went on to say that a more fair comparsion would be phoenix and scout. as YOU yourself said "scouts have perfect moving shots" or something to that effect. since you said moving shots is what made corsairs good vs mutas why does moving shot not make scouts good vs mutas based on your logic? if moving shots made corsairs good vs mutas then they should also make scouts good vs mutas right? but thats not the case at all. its the splash dmg that makes corsairds good vs muta/scourge. if corsairs did not have splash they would be a epically useless unit vs muta/scourge. now this applies to sc2 as well. phoenixes have NO splash dmg at all. if they did they would be alot better vs mutas in sc2. moving shots will not make them that much more effective especially since if you gave phoenixes moving shots you would also have to consider mutas being able to do moving shots aswell. Yeah sorry about that. But there were no scourge in my example video. With both scourge and mutas chasing scouts, scouts would probably not be cost efficient because they'd have to be running away all the time. But anyway. The point I was trying to make concerned the moving shot mechanic and we're just getting sidetracked with this argument. What I meant to say was simply: Scouts have ideal control mechanics wise. Balancing a game around a unit with the exact same mechanics might well need a unit with a different design, attributes and balance. But that's just going too deep into this argument. It feels nice to control scouts. There. I said what I meant to be saying all along with that. | ||
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Ideas
United States8182 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:35 LunarC wrote: How come nobody thinks Blizzard will make these changes? They said at the beginning of beta that they will not hesitate to completely rework and even throw out units if necessary. And Blizzard is known for listening to its fans. If Blizzard isn't blatantly lying and deciding to throw its reputation (and Starcraft 2's potential to become the next SCBW) out the window, then they WILL fix Starcraft 2 and they WILL listen to input from fans, especially fans that most definitely understand how Starcraft 1 works due to years of watching top level pros and compiling information about the game and know how Starcraft 2 will become a better as a game and an ESport. they also said they'd put online replays in war3. and didnt they say they were putting muta micro back in the game back in like 2008? | ||
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fulmetljaket
482 Posts
and like an above poster said. youe xpect them to just have everything down within a few months? the game isnt even out yet... let them do their thing, ffs. cry about it AFTER the game comes out? | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:36 Fallen wrote: I think this is all blown out of proportions. There's plenty of micro in sc2 to do. Have you seen that bob vs idra game? if thats not a micro win im not sure what to tell you. There's countless example! Leave brood war behind guys, this is a new game. Stop comparing them you're wasting your time and breath. Have you watched Starcraft Brood War Proleague games? Have you seen Idra play Starcraft Brood War? Or are you another one of those people that have been raised solely on Starcraft 2 spectating? Go to the VODs tab at the top of this page, and watch a series of games, both short and long. THEN you will get a feel for true micro (not just unit micro, but also large army control). | ||
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GaMeOfFeAr
United States26 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:33 mOnion wrote: um, nuh uh? muta micro was still incredibly potent in ZvP even though maelstrom existed. also maps weren't made by the community, they were made by professionals in KoreaLand You, like most other posters, including the original poster, seem to just be lamenting about the removal of muta micro. Yes, it was interesting to watch, but I'm willing to move onto a new game with its own mechanics, many of which have yet to be discovered, instead of writing an essay that summarizes to: a) Corsairs are better than Phoenix's b) I miss muta micro c) I don't like Dustin Browder. | ||
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Storm[PT]
120 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:39 LunarC wrote: Have you watched Starcraft Brood War Proleague games? Have you seen Idra play Starcraft Brood War? Or are you another one of those people that have been raised solely on Starcraft 2 spectating? Go to the VODs tab at the top of this page, and watch a series of games, both short and long. THEN you will get a feel for true micro (not just unit micro, but also large army control). Damn! beat me to it! | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:40 GaMeOfFeAr wrote: You, like most other posters, including the original poster, seem to just be lamenting about the removal of muta micro. Yes, it was interesting to watch, but I'm willing to move onto a new game with its own mechanics, many of which have yet to be discovered, instead of writing an essay that summarizes to: a) Corsairs are better than Phoenix's b) I miss muta micro c) I don't like Dustin Browder. No, corsair vs. Phoenix is an EXAMPLE of the removal of the capacity for micro from the game engine. Blizzard should have made more conscious decisions to implant what worked in Starcraft 1's engine into Starcraft 2 and remove what did not. Then, they should have designed units around the concept of diverse ARMY control and micro. Muta micro would break Starcraft 2 in so many ways because of unlimited unit selection. I think everyone would be perfectly fine if Blizzard supplanted classic Mutalisk micro with more units designed and balance around control. Which they did not. | ||
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mOnion
United States5660 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:40 GaMeOfFeAr wrote: You, like most other posters, including the original poster, seem to just be lamenting about the removal of muta micro. Yes, it was interesting to watch, but I'm willing to move onto a new game with its own mechanics, many of which have yet to be discovered, instead of writing an essay that summarizes to: a) Corsairs are better than Phoenix's b) I miss muta micro c) I don't like Dustin Browder. you, like most other posters, seem to want to ignore a perfect game and act like it never existed. i was merely stating an example. i play toss in both games and couldnt care less about muta micro. "I only saw so far because I stood on the shoulders of giants" eh? let's build on the past. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
No doubt there is plenty of room for SC2 to grow but that doesn't mean it will necessarily grow into a game that is as good as BW unless it has the right seeds- an engine that allows things like (effective) moving shots for some units. All games, of course, will evolve the more they are played but evolution itself is not enough to solve a problem if it is fundamental. Even if C&C3 had been played competitively for 12 years I doubt it would have developed into as fun a game as BW. One of the problems is that us BW fans are going to never really see eye-to-eye with those casual players migrating from WOW in anticipation of SC2. To them if it has a reasonable single player and is not too difficult it will be enough for them to play for a year or so before moving on to something else. To these people visiting this site for the first time we probably sound like a bunch of lunatics worrying so much about what seem like minor things like having (effective) moving shots. The sad truth is that they are the majority and we are the minority and ultimately Blizzard will cater more for them than us. | ||
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insectoceanx
United States331 Posts
Let’s just think about it for a second. Were Blizzard’s balance designers really that good in 1999? Or did the game in fact owe a lot of its success to an exceptionally well coded engine, and the resulting smooth gameplay and perfect control that followed with it? Many people throughout these years we’ve enjoyed with Starcraft have argued the stance that Blizzard managing to balance Starcraft as well as they did must have been a fluke of cosmic proportions. Well what if it wasn’t? What if the game - through being coded in a way that gave the player perfect control of one’s units, and thus made the ceiling of the possible infinitely high - in reality balanced itself? SC1 units were not perfectly controlled. They bugged out all the time. eg goliaths goons or ultra who all get stuck on a ramp. You only had to dance because the units were so retarded otherwise. I like sc2 and im glad its not just sc1 in 3d. Give the game time to evolve. How long was sc1 played before people began dancing mutas? | ||
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