EPT
)I agree with a lot of things in here, especially with the concept of having FULL control of air units.
Oh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 13
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sLiniss
United States849 Posts
)I agree with a lot of things in here, especially with the concept of having FULL control of air units. | ||
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Three
Japan278 Posts
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
and what made corsairs so strong against mutas is not the moving shot but the fact that corsairs do splash dmg and zerg players always stack there mutas in clumps. this is what made corsairs so dangerous in a muta vs corsair scenario. some of your other points are somewhat valid tho, but i just dont think comparing phoenixes to corsairs was a good comparison. moving shot is not what mad corsairs good. it was there splash dmg to air units. thats the main thing i want to get out the way of lalushes post. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On April 27 2010 11:09 PanzerDragoon wrote: I'm saying the only reason people are agreeing with LaLush is because of his name factor and that it's negative against the sequel. This literally happens with every single anticipated sequel. It can never live up to your dreams. I never heard of Lalush prior to this thread ;o. | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
In SC:Bw as well as Warcraft 3 you could use (partially even extremely cheap) Units to do terrible damage or at least very cost effective if you microed them well. Such as a Blademaster killing individual units or stealing high level creeps. Such as all these air units lalush presented or vultures, with the extreme example of spider mines which can really go far above the potential damage a hellion could ever achieve. Or this incredible incredible zeppelin micro video by moon where he uses a zeppelin and a bunch of archers in some kind of synergy that goes far beyond their original ressource costs. I think there are several things in SC2 preventing this: -> The issue lalush presented: No shooting while moving, not even remotely with stop/patrol/attack micro. -> Very concentrated games that rarely ever spread out over a larger area (especially the armies don't). Clumped armys rarely allow things like zeppelin/drop ship micro to pick up and release units for efficient results or even economy harass. It results from small maps and weak static defense imo. -> No high ground advantage. Also contributes to the concentration of units which don't spread because they would get picked one by one then. -> No cool skills of mass destruction that has to be used well. Aiming a storm or EMP well is no piece of great micro. Sometimes you might have cool situations like ghosts vs templars but often it's just "hit it where he has his huge army ball". -> Players very rarely have the opportunity of turning the game around by good micro. Maybe some people here remember this great scene in Warcraft 3 where mTw.Tak3r (I hope he was that) got an insane turnaround against a korean undead by good hero control that allowed him to kill all the undead's heros. Imo this results in the situation that cost efficency mainly means: - A unit is cost efficient anyways, such as marauders, because it has a great cost-damage-health-ratio. - Taking fights in which you have an advantage anyways because you have the better army - basic positioning, don't have your opponent have the better arch and so on. - Sometimes a little hit and run that doesn't change much in many situations. - Hitting your opponent where he doesn't defend, like dropping some hellions in his eco. Overall the really cool spectacular ZOMFG micro got lost! No cool "2 units kill 20"-moves exept for ultralisk vs lings maybe, but nothing that is much about micro. Better micro does not allow you turnarounds mostly, it takes heavy failure of the advantagues player or some tech like air against a terran who only has marauder/tanks but you won't get it done only because you have one good positioned siege tank or use some skill insanely well (Using forcefields on ramps is not a sign of skill as you should be able to know the hotkey and hit the ramp with your mouse without much trouble.) The problem that arises is: you can never engage with an inferior force against a superior one. The outcome of taking the risk of firing a shot on a superior air force in SC2 is a vastly different one from that of Brood War. Yes! I think that's such a huge problem of SC2. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On April 27 2010 11:30 Ballistixz wrote: i have to disagree with the corsair and phoenix comparison. i have no idea why ppl constantly try to compare phoenix to corsair. phoenixes are more comparable to sc1 scouts and not corsairs. and what made corsairs so strong against mutas is not the moving shot but the fact that corsairs do splash dmg and zerg players always stack there mutas in clumps. this is what made corsairs so dangerous in a muta vs corsair scenario. the rest of your argument with moving shot is good tho, i just dont think comparing phoenixes to corsairs was a good comparison. Lol. Scouts are like the single best example of a unit with a perfect moving shot. I even considered making the video using speed upgraded scouts, but ultimately decided against it because the scouts had too good control for the comparison to be fair. Scouts have such a fast turning animation with the speed upgrade that they can literally turn 180 degrees in the blink of a second using patrol micro (mutalisks can only do 90 degrees for some reason). The only reason no one used scouts was because of its cost, and because it sucked against ground. The corsair essentially fulfilled its role at a cheaper cost, and usually to a better effect. Only because scouts weren't used in SC1, doesn't mean they aren't a DREAM to micro. If I could choose one prime example of a unit with perfect moving shot and turning animation for Blizzard to emulate, I would choose the speed upgraded Scout. | ||
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Kezzer
United States1268 Posts
On April 27 2010 11:32 teekesselchen wrote: Overall the really cool spectacular ZOMFG micro got lost! No cool "2 units kill 20"-moves exept for ultralisk vs lings maybe, but nothing that is much about micro. Where in SC1 did you have 2 units killing 20 units that isn't in SC2? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Vharox
United States1037 Posts
good job! | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On April 27 2010 11:37 BDF92 wrote: Where in SC1 did you have 2 units killing 20 units that isn't in SC2? Vulture. But that's pretty much the only one. When you get up to 5-6 units killing a ridiculous amount of units... that's when there's a noticeable difference. | ||
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Vharox
United States1037 Posts
On April 27 2010 11:37 BDF92 wrote: Where in SC1 did you have 2 units killing 20 units that isn't in SC2? Nada's firebat/medic killing 30~ zerglings. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3137 Posts
Yeah I'm saying he went waaaaaaay too far talking about design philosophy, game engines, how and why SC:BW was such a good game, etc. It was a bunch of bullshit that will make it easy for a Blizzard employee reading it get a bad feeling. A straight article about how the mechanics of moving shot micro worked in SC:BW along with a reason why it was so great for everyone (healthy for competition, fun to use, fun to watch) and a quick proof that it doesn't really exist in SC2 would have been great. I basically agree with what Nony said. Say I'm a Blizzard employee reading this article. Most of what I see is either something I simply know to be false because I've actually made the game he's talking about and none of what he's saying is obviously false based on that experience, suggestions about units that are questionable at best and probably would be impossible to implement, or else personal attacks and insults against me, the rest of the SC2 team, and Blizzard in general. In the whole long post, there's only a few things that I can actually take and show to the design team--and most of that they've almost definitely heard before anyway, barring a few specific examples (which are good, imo). Basically, this post is great if your attitude toward SC2 is "Starcraft 2 has failed as a game. Let's throw up our hands, curse Blizzard, and die." But if you actually want to make the game better, hear constructive criticism, and have the flaws in the game pointed out so they can be fixed, there just isn't much here that you can actually work with, and it's buried beneath a bunch of stuff that is the opposite of constructive anyway. All of which isn't to say I have anything against the OP personally. The article was, at the least, food for thought, even if I desperately wish his points had been made in a briefer and less insulting fashion. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
On April 27 2010 11:18 checo wrote: Its really kind of sad to try micro vikings to kite collosus and get rape cause the damn thing cant move for like 2 secs after it fired.... Awsome read thx for this I don't have this problem. Vikings can kite colossus ezpz. Maybe you should practice your Viking micro? On April 27 2010 11:19 SichuanPanda wrote: You WANT to micro your units back, but since they get hung up on each other and/or attack whatever they want when you try to do this, and the fact that pushing CTRL at any point sets your units off on their own is very detractive from micro. Jesus Christ, the ctrl+click attack thing has been removed for two patches and people are -still- bitching about it? How about this for an idea -- Don't press ctrl and right click if you know it gives an attack-move command. You have nobody to blame but yourself for "accidentally" pressing keys you don't mean to. | ||
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Kezzer
United States1268 Posts
On April 27 2010 11:39 LaLuSh wrote: Vulture. But that's pretty much the only one. When you get up to 5-6 units killing a ridiculous amount of units... that's when there's a noticeable difference. But what I'm asking is what 5-6 units can kill a ridiculous amount of units with micro? Vultures killing zealots/zerglings is just like a hellion killing zealots/zerglings | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
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Motiva
United States1774 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
I blame the gosu playtesters at Blizzard for not speaking up. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On April 27 2010 11:36 LaLuSh wrote: Lol. Scouts are like the single best example of a unit with a perfect moving shot. I even considered making the video using speed upgraded scouts, but ultimately decided against it because the scouts had too good control for the comparison to be fair. Scouts have such a fast turning animation with the speed upgrade that they can literally turn 180 degrees in the blink of a second using patrol micro (mutalisks can only do 90 degrees for some reason). The only reason no one used scouts was because of its cost, and because it sucked against ground. The corsair essentially fulfilled its role at a cheaper cost, and usually to a better effect. Only because scouts weren't used in SC1, doesn't mean they aren't a DREAM to micro. If I could choose one prime example of a unit with perfect moving shot and turning animation for Blizzard to emulate, I would choose the speed upgraded Scout. i have no idea what game you played but scouts was not a efficient counter to mutas at all. muta/scourge demolished them. it may have had "perfect moving shots" but that did not matter when scourge/mutas demolish them. ppl used corsairs because they had splash and if u got enought of them u could take out a good fleet of mutas/scourge with proper micro. thats something scouts could and will never do because they have no splash. just imagine for a minute if corsairs did not have splash dmg. how effective would they be against scourge/mutas even with moving shots? phoenixes has no splash dmg against air targets. give phoenixes splash dmg and i guarantee u they will be usefull with our without the moving shots. the only air unit scouts are good against are wraiths IF you have a observer around. all other air units demolish them. On April 27 2010 11:36 LaLuSh wrote: This unit is stupid. The only reason it’s in the game is because it used to have a cool mechanic that corrupted enemy air units. Blizzard, please remove the corruptor and replace it with a unit that actually makes sense! Preferably a unit with an attack animation that doesn’t look stupid, but at the same time allows it to move while firing! Corrupting buildings is a stupid spell and you know it. I’d rather that corruptors had no energy (when the hell have you seen someone use up the corruptors’ energy?) so templars couldn’t feedback them because they have a spell that no one ever uses. corruptors stupid? again i have no idea what game your playing but corrupting buildings is strong as hell. atm no air unit can beat corruptors head on. they demolish anything and everything in the air. and corrupting a building can be very strong like i said. the time a building stays corrupted is insane and if u have enought corruptors u can keep those building corrupted for a even more insane amount of time. have 8 gate ways? corrupt them and those 8 gateways are useless. you wont be able to make any kind of units for a insanely long period of time while the zerg can just mass up more units. Planetary fortress in your way? corrupted it and it becomes useless. seriously corruption is a very strong ability. im not going to go and pick apart your entire post since u have some valid points and not so valid points. but the corsair thing (and corruptors) is the main things i want to touch in your post. | ||
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Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
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