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On April 23 2010 03:15 -orb- wrote:
you clearly have never heard of this game called wow
HT/DTs see extensive use in Korean servers. Tanks, Thors (mass), Hellions, Reapers as well. I've seen replays of players pushing with Thors with Hellions behind them to good effect. Just because on the US server where you play all Terrans always go MMM on n00b and pro level or use hellions just for harass early game doesn't mean blizzard should balance the game around that.
Blizzard has also held a lot of important events in Korea. Regardless of its popularity there if they were to just cater to the casual players they would have made the announcement somewhere else just because the entire world is bigger then one country.
Also, arguably WoW is a cooperative game (to a certain extent) and you will have masses of players at any given time (not 1v1). It does not make sense for them to listen to just the 1 or 2 elitists on each server.
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The way mining minerals in this game works already that test would have so much RNG in it you would have to run it through like 50 scenarios of placing probes properly after chrono boost alone.
Also how would you factor in a gold mineral patch with these simulations as well as time of expansion, considering that I am sure blizzard doesn't expect T and P to expand at the same time..
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Sweden3522 Posts
On April 23 2010 03:20 -orb- wrote:
I can almost guarantee you floophead that chrono boost is not going to give protoss a better economy than MULEs...
In fact that'd be an interesting thing to try. Have a protoss just build pylons and probes and use every chrono on probes to full saturation and have the terran just get the orbital command with the standard 15oc build and use every 50 energy on mules and see who's getting more money.
I feel like this would be what they balanced it towards (like what else?), but would still be interesting to see because while logically they should be even my gut tells me due to the sheer amount the mule mines and the fact that it lets other scvs mine the same node at hte same time that the terran would have a better economy.
listen to urself orb, again u just compare 2 things towards each other. this is now how u come to conclusions in rts games
yes ofcoruse the mule will give more minerals and thats the only thing it can do well
but chrono boost gives more of anything, at anytime. terran must sacrifice mule to scan vise versa while the nexus only has 1 option
both spells r just so different that u cant just say which one of them is best
overall the mule gives more low tier units while chrono boost leans towards more tech, upgrades and higher tech units
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On April 23 2010 03:23 Black Octopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 03:15 -orb- wrote:
you clearly have never heard of this game called wow
HT/DTs see extensive use in Korean servers. Tanks, Thors (mass), Hellions, Reapers as well. I've seen replays of players pushing with Thors with Hellions behind them to good effect. Just because on the US server where you play all Terrans always go MMM on n00b and pro level or use hellions just for harass early game doesn't mean blizzard should balance the game around that. Blizzard has also held a lot of important events in Korea. Regardless of its popularity there if they were to just cater to the casual players they would have made the announcement somewhere else just because the entire world is bigger then one country. Also, arguably WoW is a cooperative game (to a certain extent) and you will have masses of players at any given time (not 1v1). It does not make sense for them to listen to just the 1 or 2 elitists on each server.
Here yet again you illustrate your complete lack of knowledge of wow, but keep spewing bullshit and making yourself look like an idiot, it's amusing
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On April 23 2010 03:21 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 03:20 -orb- wrote:
I can almost guarantee you floophead that chrono boost is not going to give protoss a better economy than MULEs...
In fact that'd be an interesting thing to try. Have a protoss just build pylons and probes and use every chrono on probes to full saturation and have the terran just get the orbital command with the standard 15oc build and use every 50 energy on mules and see who's getting more money.
I feel like this would be what they balanced it towards (like what else?), but would still be interesting to see because while logically they should be even my gut tells me due to the sheer amount the mule mines and the fact that it lets other scvs mine the same node at hte same time that the terran would have a better economy. I think someone tried this before and they found that Protoss has a better economy for a short window of time (which is where the immortal all-inish push comes from) but after that window, Terran starts to pull ahead by a HUGE amount.
What really matters is that protoss ALWAYS hits saturation faster, and therefore they can cut workers for more units without being truly allin before terran can. I could care less if protoss has more money or not, because they can put 100% of that money into army before terran can. THAT is what makes a timing window, not just simply having more money.
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On April 23 2010 03:22 -orb- wrote:
You clearly don't play wow or know anything at all about wow.
There is a core community in wow that is competitive in PvP in arenas and blizzard doesn't give a flying fuck about them which is why it's been shrinking for ages. Blizzard caters to the casuals in every single opportunity and it can easily be seen if you knew anything at all about wow
As a retired very competitive wow player (2450+ rating), this is simply not true. (They did balance alot around PVE tho, which is to be expected since its mostly a pve game).
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On April 23 2010 03:24 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 03:20 -orb- wrote:
I can almost guarantee you floophead that chrono boost is not going to give protoss a better economy than MULEs...
In fact that'd be an interesting thing to try. Have a protoss just build pylons and probes and use every chrono on probes to full saturation and have the terran just get the orbital command with the standard 15oc build and use every 50 energy on mules and see who's getting more money.
I feel like this would be what they balanced it towards (like what else?), but would still be interesting to see because while logically they should be even my gut tells me due to the sheer amount the mule mines and the fact that it lets other scvs mine the same node at hte same time that the terran would have a better economy. listen to urself orb, again u just compare 2 things towards each other. this is now how u come to conclusions in rts games yes ofcoruse the mule will give more minerals and thats the only thing it can do well but chrono boost gives more of anything, at anytime. terran must sacrifice mule to scan vise versa while the nexus only has 1 option both spells r just so different that u cant just say which one of them is best overall the mule gives more low tier units while chrono boost leans towards more tech, upgrades and higher tech units
That's not the only thing it can do well, you have in-game legal maphacks with scan. Are you seriously going to argue that scan is useless and mule is the only thing to ever use?
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On April 23 2010 03:23 Black Octopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 03:15 -orb- wrote:
you clearly have never heard of this game called wow
HT/DTs see extensive use in Korean servers. Tanks, Thors (mass), Hellions, Reapers as well. I've seen replays of players pushing with Thors with Hellions behind them to good effect. Just because on the US server where you play all Terrans always go MMM on n00b and pro level or use hellions just for harass early game doesn't mean blizzard should balance the game around that. Blizzard has also held a lot of important events in Korea. Regardless of its popularity there if they were to just cater to the casual players they would have made the announcement somewhere else just because the entire world is bigger then one country. Also, arguably WoW is a cooperative game (to a certain extent) and you will have masses of players at any given time (not 1v1). It does not make sense for them to listen to just the 1 or 2 elitists on each server.
Is there any source for streamed Korean play or at least VODs/replays? There is plenty of US/Euro stuff here and I'd be interested in its comparison to the Asian servers.
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Its tough to compare wow and sc2.
WoW had to balance between PvE and PvP.
SC2 balances around 1v1.
Also, different sections of blizzard working on different games, as well as the simple fact that WoW is a P2P game. 15 dollars a month forces a division to work pretty hard on keep the majority (which is of course casual/extremely mediocre-core) happy.
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Sweden3522 Posts
On April 23 2010 03:26 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 03:24 MorroW wrote:On April 23 2010 03:20 -orb- wrote:
I can almost guarantee you floophead that chrono boost is not going to give protoss a better economy than MULEs...
In fact that'd be an interesting thing to try. Have a protoss just build pylons and probes and use every chrono on probes to full saturation and have the terran just get the orbital command with the standard 15oc build and use every 50 energy on mules and see who's getting more money.
I feel like this would be what they balanced it towards (like what else?), but would still be interesting to see because while logically they should be even my gut tells me due to the sheer amount the mule mines and the fact that it lets other scvs mine the same node at hte same time that the terran would have a better economy. listen to urself orb, again u just compare 2 things towards each other. this is now how u come to conclusions in rts games yes ofcoruse the mule will give more minerals and thats the only thing it can do well but chrono boost gives more of anything, at anytime. terran must sacrifice mule to scan vise versa while the nexus only has 1 option both spells r just so different that u cant just say which one of them is best overall the mule gives more low tier units while chrono boost leans towards more tech, upgrades and higher tech units That's not the only thing it can do well, you have in-game legal maphacks with scan. Are you seriously going to argue that scan is useless and mule is the only thing to ever use?
i thought we were talking about macro and mule vs chrono boost
and why r we even talking about it, i was just trying to shut down that discussion which of the spells r better because its a retarded discussion
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On April 23 2010 03:23 Black Octopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 03:15 -orb- wrote:
you clearly have never heard of this game called wow
HT/DTs see extensive use in Korean servers. Tanks, Thors (mass), Hellions, Reapers as well. I've seen replays of players pushing with Thors with Hellions behind them to good effect. Just because on the US server where you play all Terrans always go MMM on n00b and pro level or use hellions just for harass early game doesn't mean blizzard should balance the game around that.
I'm fairly certain the American team rolled their Korean opponents in the Stars War over in China. So what's with this assumption that Koreans are already miles ahead of everyone else in terms of strategy? I've watched a lot of korean, european, and north american replays. I think it's pretty silly to make those statements right now. There really isn't a clearly superior or more innovative region right now.
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I can't believe you legitimately believe everything you say, orb. You're just trolling at this point. Your analysis is so one-sided and narrow-minded it's hilarious.
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1) Forcefield energy cost increased to 70
2) Roach HP decreased by 10
3) Maruders stim effect attack rate reduced slightly
4) Hallucination cost redcued to 90 mana
5) Broodlords attack nerfed slightly
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On April 23 2010 03:22 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 03:20 NightOne wrote:On April 23 2010 03:15 -orb- wrote:On April 23 2010 03:12 NightOne wrote:On April 23 2010 03:04 -orb- wrote:On April 23 2010 02:59 NightOne wrote:
So to call 90% of this thread retarded is just wrong. Besides, what does Orb's ranting and rage have to do with this patch-notes contest anyways? Orb are you pissed off for people suggesting patch notes that you would never suggest? You should be happy about it then because that means your patch-note suggestion should theoretically win. Also, if this is a patch-note contest for beta keys, most of these people probably havn't played the game, so why are you trolling newbs when you have better things to do?
Because on a certain level Blizzard listens to the players and unfortunately when you look at the patch histories (things like the DT nerf when no one complained about DTs since they're half as useful as they were in brood war, etc) it's obvious they listen to the casuals more than the high level players, and unfortunately these idiots are shaping the game in a terrible way. When you dumb down every race to be as attack move as the zerg are right now the game becomes hopelessly boring and is not fun to watch. Micro/spells are what make starcraft such a spectator sport (PLAGUUUUUU STORMMMUUUUU etc), yet it seems like everyone just wants to attack move to victory while they sit there and watch their units' AI take over Even if this is the case I rather have more people enjoy playing starcraft for a bigger community than leaving something hard for low-mid teir players to deal with. Di spite the changes im confident the best players will cCome up with something to make the win ratio close between the races. Remember in starcraft didnt look perfectly balanced but playesr found away to deal with everything Players ultimantly balance the game not blizzard My point was that calling other people retarded simply because you are Orb and you don't agree with them is wrong. Half of those people probably watch your daily show. Its disrespectful. Try something more constructive because pissing people off because other people pissed you off isn't helping your image. DT nerf was a suprise to me as it was to alot of players. However, you are mistaking causality and outcome if you think that Blizzard listens to casuals more than top-tier players. It is in no means evidence of such a thing at all, it is your simple guess that blizzard listens to noobs rather than you. We really have no clue as to where Blizzard gets most of their information because they don't disclose that. Moot point and pointless, moving on. Its true that dumbing down a race to attack-move is boring, I am sure that top-tier zerg and terran players would argue that their unit usage is anything but attack move. Even if everyone wanted to just attack-move to victory that is probably not what they'll get. Besides, top-tier players all know that noobs want easy-wins and attack-move strategies. If you were put into a situation where you only had to beat those noobs and automatically be called a pro-gamer i'm sure you would find your way out of it. Top tier players don't attack-move or cheese as often, you should know that by now otherwise you are just being difficult and unreasonable. When you play Idra, I think attack-move would be the least of your worries. Lol no evidence of blizzard listening more to casuals than high level players? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha you just completely nullified your entire post you clearly have never heard of this game called wow Last time I checked, WOW wasn't as competetive as RTS games, or do you somehow have that mentality stuck in your head that if you reach Level 80 shaman you'll be #1 too? Its very cute that you try and disregard my entire post based on that. Since thats the case, you obviously aren't listening and trying to convince you to manner up and respect other people is a waste of my time. I'll just let you keep trolling noobs who don't know better since you feel good about that, must feel like a man. Have fun. PS: The poster about statistical analysis and other BS on your daily show is a complete contradictory to any evidence or constructive criticism / support for any hypothesese you came up with in this very thread. Good Luck. You clearly don't play wow or know anything at all about wow. There is a core community in wow that is competitive in PvP in arenas and blizzard doesn't give a flying fuck about them which is why it's been shrinking for ages. Blizzard caters to the casuals in every single opportunity and it can easily be seen if you knew anything at all about wow
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You get a cloaked permanent moving scout, -orb-. All is not lost in Shakuras.
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On April 23 2010 03:27 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 03:23 Black Octopi wrote:On April 23 2010 03:15 -orb- wrote:
you clearly have never heard of this game called wow
HT/DTs see extensive use in Korean servers. Tanks, Thors (mass), Hellions, Reapers as well. I've seen replays of players pushing with Thors with Hellions behind them to good effect. Just because on the US server where you play all Terrans always go MMM on n00b and pro level or use hellions just for harass early game doesn't mean blizzard should balance the game around that. Blizzard has also held a lot of important events in Korea. Regardless of its popularity there if they were to just cater to the casual players they would have made the announcement somewhere else just because the entire world is bigger then one country. Also, arguably WoW is a cooperative game (to a certain extent) and you will have masses of players at any given time (not 1v1). It does not make sense for them to listen to just the 1 or 2 elitists on each server. Is there any source for streamed Korean play or at least VODs/replays? There is plenty of US/Euro stuff here and I'd be interested in its comparison to the Asian servers.
Sen played often on stream at a time, the game was an accent or so different when played on asia server. It wasn't this crazy mix-up though people talk about...
http://www.livestream.com/senbattlenetstream
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Go with smufts additude dont call things unbalanced or underpowered just find away even if patches get into the way
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On April 23 2010 03:27 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 03:23 Black Octopi wrote:On April 23 2010 03:15 -orb- wrote:
you clearly have never heard of this game called wow
HT/DTs see extensive use in Korean servers. Tanks, Thors (mass), Hellions, Reapers as well. I've seen replays of players pushing with Thors with Hellions behind them to good effect. Just because on the US server where you play all Terrans always go MMM on n00b and pro level or use hellions just for harass early game doesn't mean blizzard should balance the game around that. Blizzard has also held a lot of important events in Korea. Regardless of its popularity there if they were to just cater to the casual players they would have made the announcement somewhere else just because the entire world is bigger then one country. Also, arguably WoW is a cooperative game (to a certain extent) and you will have masses of players at any given time (not 1v1). It does not make sense for them to listen to just the 1 or 2 elitists on each server. Is there any source for streamed Korean play or at least VODs/replays? There is plenty of US/Euro stuff here and I'd be interested in its comparison to the Asian servers. Go watch on Husky and HD channels on youtube, they've been posting quite a few Korean ones recently.
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8751 Posts
I don't think Blizzard changes the game based on anyone's opinion. There are a few steps to the process:
1.) What's wrong with the game?
--> Look for ourselves
--> Collect opinions via user feedback
2.) Why is a particular issue an issue?
--> Investigate for ourselves
--> Read users' investigations
3.) How to fix the issue?
--> Come up with our own solutions
--> Read user-suggested solutions
4.) Is the solution good?
--> Investigate for ourselves
--> Read users' investigations
I'd say that (1) and (3) are opinions or hypotheses that are basically just thrown out there like a brainstorming process. Who says what doesn't really matter. Nothing here changes the game. The important thing is getting everything on the table. They're things that could potentially change the game.
(2) and (4) are arguments that stand by themselves, independent of who wrote them. (2) can eliminate or validate things from (1), as can (4) do to items from (3). It still doesn't matter who says what.
For the most part, I think (2) and (4) are only truly completed by Blizzard employees. Most people aren't knowledgeable enough to do them. The few users, or groups of users, who are knowledgeable enough aren't getting paid and don't know if their work will actually make a difference. The best instances of (2) and (4) from users remain hidden in the form of informal conversations between top players...
Nothing gets in the game without coming clean through analysis and investigation. "User opinion" doesn't ever weigh in during an investigation. There isn't anything like "well it seems to us that Storm is perfectly balanced, but 60% of users say it isn't, so let's nerf it"
(this has nothing to do with WoW changes, which are not analogous for a bunch of reasons...)
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I don't think wow has any place in this discussion
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EPT
