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On April 19 2010 05:00 feather6 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 04:50 wbz0rn wrote:
i dont know.. "mass up and overwhelm your foe" every single game is kind of boring.
You mean what most see as the defining characteristic of zerg is boring? The word "zerg" has entered modern gaming slang to describe this very thing. It sounds like you shouldn't play zerg :/
if you look at the matchups in BW, there are very few times where zerg actually just "mass up some units and attack".
in ZvT you almost always get mutas for map control and then transition into defiler/lurker play, which are arguably the most tactical units in the game and rely not on massing but great positioning/micro. Eventually you can get 4 or 5 bases and finally just mass up a bunch of ultraling but even then you need great defiler/scourge micro to win (unless you're really far ahead).
In ZvZ it was always super low-econ muta/ling/scourge and required INSANE micro and multitasking. Yes you do mass up lings for a bit but micro is so hard that it was still very fun (unlike mass roach wars in SC2 ZvZ, although my friend masterasia has told me it's all about banelings now....not sure if there is such thing as baneling micro yet lol)
ZvP is pretty much the only matchup where zerg can truly just "mass up a shitload of units and attack-move", but that's really just 1 sort of style, and still required a shitload of good micro in storm dodging/templar sniping/lurker position/flanking. The other big style is playing super defensively with lurker/sunk/spore defense and taking 4 bases and THEN massing up ultraling (not to mention lurker contains were really fun/interesting as well). There were also tons of awesome low-eco semicheesy strats involving fast lurkers/mutas.
I think that the main problems with Zerg are A) the removal of (viable) muta stacking/micro, B) the replacement of hte lurker with the baneling, and C) the new dynamics of massing hydra/roach in SC2 compared to massing hydras in SC1.
With the removal of proper muta stacking and micro, zerg harass is a lot less interesting. Muta harass is no long really harass. Basically you just kill teh Terran unless they get thors really fast, which completely make mutas obsolete. Muta harass is sorta broken vs Protoss compared to how it worked in BW. In BW if you made mutas vs protoss, there would be this awesome micro battle between muta/scourge vs sairs. Now it's just "attack mineral line and then leave while his sentries/stalkers get there". There's just no real finesse to it any more.
I really like the baneling and I think it's the single best new unit to zerg in SC2 (out of the 3 new units LOL). Unfortunately blizzard has decided that it overlaps with lurkers too much and so I guess they cut the lurkers because they favor the new unit. Maybe we just need to wait and see if the baneling isnt being used to it's full potential, but I just dont think it's nearly as versatile as the lurker. The lurker allowed for SO MANY different playstyles and strategies, and was the ultimate map control unit. As much as I like banelings, they just dont match up. Maybe if dark swarm was given back to Zerg they would be more useful, but from what I understand they are just completely useless after the 1st 10 minutes vs P or T.
The biggest problem with Zerg now though is how hydraroach is so different from hydras in SC1. In BW, hydras were cheap, massable, and had low HP and a pretty decent DPS. Theyre weakness was in how strongly countered tehy were to AoE attacks such as storm, scarabs, and siege tanks/spidermines. In SC2 the roach was added which is a slow unit with insane amount of HP for the same cost as BW hydra, and Hydras were buffed in DPS. Mass hydra was still sort of fun to use in BW because there was a real skill involved in templar/sniping and then dancing your hydras around to dodge storms. in SC2 you just sorta sit there and take it. Roaches are so slow and have so much HP that there's no point in dodging storms, and the duration of storm is so fast that it's really almost impossible to storm dodge with hydras very well at all.
Dont even get me started on how much hive tech zerg sucks gameplay wise.
In theory yes zerg should be the "mass a bunch of shit and attack" but ultimately Zerg in BW were NOT like that 90% of the time and required more finesse than any of the other races. SC2 Zerg is a complete failure compared to BW Zerg.
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I mean they removed the 3 most fun aspects of BW in lurkers, muta micro (although this is probably not a design choice but rather just impossible to implement with the engine), and defilers. What do we get instead? banelings that are half as useful as lurkers, roaches which NOBODY likes, queens which are cool I guess but sorta boring, and infestors which are just a shitty dark archon that is only useful because all it's spells are free.
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On April 19 2010 05:31 wbz0rn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:26 Jack_Acer75 wrote:And I gotta ask, can anyone tell me what the use of the changelings are? I haven't seen anyone use them competitively yet so I'm a little curious  overseers can produce em infinitly for energy and they are used to scout. they change their form to either marine or a berserker(first enemy race to contact with) and u can hide em among enemy units to scout their army movement(via "track movement" of certain enemy unit) or the base.
So someone would actually have to notice "hey, I didn't tell my unit to do that? Like they won't pop up on the mini map as an enemy unit?
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On April 19 2010 05:49 Jack_Acer75 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:31 wbz0rn wrote:On April 19 2010 05:26 Jack_Acer75 wrote:And I gotta ask, can anyone tell me what the use of the changelings are? I haven't seen anyone use them competitively yet so I'm a little curious overseers can produce em infinitly for energy and they are used to scout. they change their form to either marine or a berserker(first enemy race to contact with) and u can hide em among enemy units to scout their army movement(via "track movement" of certain enemy unit) or the base. So someone would actually have to notice "hey, I didn't tell my unit to do that? Like they won't pop up on the mini map as an enemy unit?
yea, It's not that hard to notice really and they all have like 1HP so they die to anything that hits them.
I really hate the idea of changelings but honestly it works pretty good since you have make overseers anyway and it's their only spell, there's no reason NOT to make changlings. especially since zerg requires such little multitasking now lol
it's just a free way to scout enemy positions and stuff without risking an overlord or saccing a ling (with the possibility of scouting way more than either of those could otherwise)
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i agree with the OP completely. it just seems zergs really dont have many options. they also have no real defensive units that can push back and hold off entire armies like lurkers did in BW. toss still have storm and terran still have tanks to push back armies or for defensive measures. zerg has nothing and all you really can do is just out mass the opposing player.
basically it just feels like zerg is naked and is a mostly offensive race compared to BW. infestors are good and game changing in certain match ups. i can fungal growth a M&M&M composition or a stalker+zealot+immortal composition and maybe neural parasite any collousus that are around and completely turn the battle in my favor, but it just doesn't feel the same.
ultras is another problem... i very rarely manage to get ultras in my matchups mainly because immortals and marauders/thors rape the HELL out of them. srsly, in one of the games i played i had atleast 5 ultras ready mixed in with my roach/hydra composition and they just disintegrated in like 5 seconds to the immortals and stalkers. another problem they have is that they are TO BIG. these maps are much much smaller then sc1 maps it seems and they just can move around nicely in such a small area especially when u already have a sizable ground army as it is... i mean it is almost near impossible for me to get a good surround with a ultras because there just plain to big for these maps -_-
zerg (to me anyway) just feels like they lack alot in the defense department. i think the changes they should make is first of all bring lurkers back (obviously) or a similar unit to a lurker and change hydras supply from 2 to 1. there should be no reason why hydras cost 2 supply. they also need to bring back hydra speed upgrade (there slower then roaches which is ANNOYING when ur playing on maps with huge distances. always have to wait a little while for hydras to catch up even on creep highways.) they also need to fix the adrenal upgrade for zerlings. for w/e reason the difference is not noticeable at all. in BW it was very noticeable and u can see the results in real time but in sc2 i barely notice any change. maybe it has to do with graphics idk. but sc2 cracklings just dont seem like sc1 cracklings.
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On April 19 2010 05:30 kei-clone wrote:lolwut? in what ways are they stronger?
considering their stats they're not stronger. but they feel stronger to me.. for example against stalkers etc..(compared to goons in BW). edited the post anyway. 
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It's rather obvious that zerg is limited now. Anyway, what is blizzard thinking? They are giving us intro about zerg - "We were hiding, we were waiting and we EVOLVED" my ass. Zergs EVOLVED? where?
Let's start from the beginning.
1.Zerglings. O, those are actually units that evolved in sc2! They can morph into banelings now. Good.
2. Overlord. Wow.. Overlords went deaf or what? They lost their detector, instead of that they can now sh....produce creep- well it is okay, since there is pretty cheap Overseer to get.
3. Hydra forgot how to move fast( no upgrade available - probably because they were hiding too long and didn't move at all, like pigs on a farm. ). Hydras forgot that they are made on tier1, and they also forgot how to morph into a lurker, w00t? Q_Q
4. Roach - new unit... No idea where did the zergs get it from ( probably some normal roaches from human colonies feeded with zerg creep - and tada! zerg roach). It's actually the best new zerg unit in sc2 ;o
5. Mutalisk - stayed the same, if i don't mention the fact that it forgot how to morph again.
6. Corruptor - oh.. devoruers are now made instantly , without morphin them from mutalisks? well, not bad... but how can it morph into Blood Lord instead of mutalisk? lol :| WTB mutalisk morphing into blood lord.
7.Ultralisk - super huge now, not many changes , not counting splash attack and ability to burrow( lol). But in sc2 rather useless because of many units having bonuses vs "Big" "armored" "biological" targets, so won't do as zerg tanks anymore.
8. Infestor - ... so , instead of Queen (sc1) and defiler we get this , um? Not bad, but comparing them to previous casters it's not an evolution at all... Q_Q
9. Queen - changed so it can spawn larva and make creep. Not bad change too, but they should nerf spawn larvae thing to spawn only 3 larvae not 4.
10. Infested terran - they are obviously not the same, but it's actually ok, since they are at least available, not like in sc1 :D
11. Brood Lord - again, good change for guardian, but why the hell is it morphed from Corruptor ?Q_Q
12. Nydus - yeah, at last it can be used. But not in many games, or not vs really good players.
After looking at what i wrote, it seems to me that zergs actually de evolved... They got used to safe life while hiding themselves and forgot how to kick ass out of other races in the galaxy. I hope the Overmind is going to fix that soon( it means before 2nd part of sc2 t_T)
Sum up(What zergs lacks most in sc2):
-Good caster unit (other races benefit like HELL from smart casting mode, but zergs do not )
-Some kind of good unit for tier3 , or ability to make brood lords from muta, instead of corruptors.
-Any mass damage unit? I know, we have ultral, but hey, don't even compare it to Collosi, thor or even Siege tanks....
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thanks for all your opinions btw. 
i kinda feared to get flamed out of the forum in an instant.
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I am posting here not since long ago, but who the hell you think ppl here are? Hungry trolls waiting for new prey to flame? :D
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On April 19 2010 05:42 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:00 feather6 wrote:On April 19 2010 04:50 wbz0rn wrote:
i dont know.. "mass up and overwhelm your foe" every single game is kind of boring.
You mean what most see as the defining characteristic of zerg is boring? The word "zerg" has entered modern gaming slang to describe this very thing. It sounds like you shouldn't play zerg :/ if you look at the matchups in BW, there are very few times where zerg actually just "mass up some units and attack". in ZvT you almost always get mutas for map control and then transition into defiler/lurker play, which are arguably the most tactical units in the game and rely not on massing but great positioning/micro. Eventually you can get 4 or 5 bases and finally just mass up a bunch of ultraling but even then you need great defiler/scourge micro to win (unless you're really far ahead). In ZvZ it was always super low-econ muta/ling/scourge and required INSANE micro and multitasking. Yes you do mass up lings for a bit but micro is so hard that it was still very fun (unlike mass roach wars in SC2 ZvZ, although my friend masterasia has told me it's all about banelings now....not sure if there is such thing as baneling micro yet lol) ZvP is pretty much the only matchup where zerg can truly just "mass up a shitload of units and attack-move", but that's really just 1 sort of style, and still required a shitload of good micro in storm dodging/templar sniping/lurker position/flanking. The other big style is playing super defensively with lurker/sunk/spore defense and taking 4 bases and THEN massing up ultraling (not to mention lurker contains were really fun/interesting as well). There were also tons of awesome low-eco semicheesy strats involving fast lurkers/mutas. I think that the main problems with Zerg are A) the removal of (viable) muta stacking/micro, B) the replacement of hte lurker with the baneling, and C) the new dynamics of massing hydra/roach in SC2 compared to massing hydras in SC1. With the removal of proper muta stacking and micro, zerg harass is a lot less interesting. Muta harass is no long really harass. Basically you just kill teh Terran unless they get thors really fast, which completely make mutas obsolete. Muta harass is sorta broken vs Protoss compared to how it worked in BW. In BW if you made mutas vs protoss, there would be this awesome micro battle between muta/scourge vs sairs. Now it's just "attack mineral line and then leave while his sentries/stalkers get there". There's just no real finesse to it any more. I really like the baneling and I think it's the single best new unit to zerg in SC2 (out of the 3 new units LOL). Unfortunately blizzard has decided that it overlaps with lurkers too much and so I guess they cut the lurkers because they favor the new unit. Maybe we just need to wait and see if the baneling isnt being used to it's full potential, but I just dont think it's nearly as versatile as the lurker. The lurker allowed for SO MANY different playstyles and strategies, and was the ultimate map control unit. As much as I like banelings, they just dont match up. Maybe if dark swarm was given back to Zerg they would be more useful, but from what I understand they are just completely useless after the 1st 10 minutes vs P or T. The biggest problem with Zerg now though is how hydraroach is so different from hydras in SC1. In BW, hydras were cheap, massable, and had low HP and a pretty decent DPS. Theyre weakness was in how strongly countered tehy were to AoE attacks such as storm, scarabs, and siege tanks/spidermines. In SC2 the roach was added which is a slow unit with insane amount of HP for the same cost as BW hydra, and Hydras were buffed in DPS. Mass hydra was still sort of fun to use in BW because there was a real skill involved in templar/sniping and then dancing your hydras around to dodge storms. in SC2 you just sorta sit there and take it. Roaches are so slow and have so much HP that there's no point in dodging storms, and the duration of storm is so fast that it's really almost impossible to storm dodge with hydras very well at all. Dont even get me started on how much hive tech zerg sucks gameplay wise. In theory yes zerg should be the "mass a bunch of shit and attack" but ultimately Zerg in BW were NOT like that 90% of the time and required more finesse than any of the other races. SC2 Zerg is a complete failure compared to BW Zerg.
PLEASE post this on the bnet forum as well if you haven't already done so. It's such a constructive post and points out some major flaws in zerg.
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On April 19 2010 06:50 bendez wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:42 Ideas wrote:On April 19 2010 05:00 feather6 wrote:On April 19 2010 04:50 wbz0rn wrote:
i dont know.. "mass up and overwhelm your foe" every single game is kind of boring.
You mean what most see as the defining characteristic of zerg is boring? The word "zerg" has entered modern gaming slang to describe this very thing. It sounds like you shouldn't play zerg :/ if you look at the matchups in BW, there are very few times where zerg actually just "mass up some units and attack". in ZvT you almost always get mutas for map control and then transition into defiler/lurker play, which are arguably the most tactical units in the game and rely not on massing but great positioning/micro. Eventually you can get 4 or 5 bases and finally just mass up a bunch of ultraling but even then you need great defiler/scourge micro to win (unless you're really far ahead). In ZvZ it was always super low-econ muta/ling/scourge and required INSANE micro and multitasking. Yes you do mass up lings for a bit but micro is so hard that it was still very fun (unlike mass roach wars in SC2 ZvZ, although my friend masterasia has told me it's all about banelings now....not sure if there is such thing as baneling micro yet lol) ZvP is pretty much the only matchup where zerg can truly just "mass up a shitload of units and attack-move", but that's really just 1 sort of style, and still required a shitload of good micro in storm dodging/templar sniping/lurker position/flanking. The other big style is playing super defensively with lurker/sunk/spore defense and taking 4 bases and THEN massing up ultraling (not to mention lurker contains were really fun/interesting as well). There were also tons of awesome low-eco semicheesy strats involving fast lurkers/mutas. I think that the main problems with Zerg are A) the removal of (viable) muta stacking/micro, B) the replacement of hte lurker with the baneling, and C) the new dynamics of massing hydra/roach in SC2 compared to massing hydras in SC1. With the removal of proper muta stacking and micro, zerg harass is a lot less interesting. Muta harass is no long really harass. Basically you just kill teh Terran unless they get thors really fast, which completely make mutas obsolete. Muta harass is sorta broken vs Protoss compared to how it worked in BW. In BW if you made mutas vs protoss, there would be this awesome micro battle between muta/scourge vs sairs. Now it's just "attack mineral line and then leave while his sentries/stalkers get there". There's just no real finesse to it any more. I really like the baneling and I think it's the single best new unit to zerg in SC2 (out of the 3 new units LOL). Unfortunately blizzard has decided that it overlaps with lurkers too much and so I guess they cut the lurkers because they favor the new unit. Maybe we just need to wait and see if the baneling isnt being used to it's full potential, but I just dont think it's nearly as versatile as the lurker. The lurker allowed for SO MANY different playstyles and strategies, and was the ultimate map control unit. As much as I like banelings, they just dont match up. Maybe if dark swarm was given back to Zerg they would be more useful, but from what I understand they are just completely useless after the 1st 10 minutes vs P or T. The biggest problem with Zerg now though is how hydraroach is so different from hydras in SC1. In BW, hydras were cheap, massable, and had low HP and a pretty decent DPS. Theyre weakness was in how strongly countered tehy were to AoE attacks such as storm, scarabs, and siege tanks/spidermines. In SC2 the roach was added which is a slow unit with insane amount of HP for the same cost as BW hydra, and Hydras were buffed in DPS. Mass hydra was still sort of fun to use in BW because there was a real skill involved in templar/sniping and then dancing your hydras around to dodge storms. in SC2 you just sorta sit there and take it. Roaches are so slow and have so much HP that there's no point in dodging storms, and the duration of storm is so fast that it's really almost impossible to storm dodge with hydras very well at all. Dont even get me started on how much hive tech zerg sucks gameplay wise. In theory yes zerg should be the "mass a bunch of shit and attack" but ultimately Zerg in BW were NOT like that 90% of the time and required more finesse than any of the other races. SC2 Zerg is a complete failure compared to BW Zerg. PLEASE post this on the bnet forum as well if you haven't already done so. It's such a constructive post and points out some major flaws in zerg.
from what I understand, isn't it more likely to get read on TL than bnet forums? lol. every thread on bnet is total garbage for the most part. I cant imagine blizzard takes anything said there very seriously.
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On April 19 2010 05:42 Ideas wrote:
....
In theory yes zerg should be the "mass a bunch of shit and attack" but ultimately Zerg in BW were NOT like that 90% of the time and required more finesse than any of the other races. SC2 Zerg is a complete failure compared to BW Zerg.
i totally agree.
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I agree that zerg is relatively limited and "boring" compared to the other races right now, particularly in the early game. However, I imagine this will change after we have TWO expansion packs, so I'm not too worried, though it may be a long wait. Remember SC1 didn't have lurkers either until the expansion.
Part of me thinks that bliz held back some units on purpose so they would have things to "add" in the expansion.
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On April 19 2010 06:58 dhardisty wrote:
I agree that zerg is relatively limited and "boring" compared to the other races right now, particularly in the early game. However, I imagine this will change after we have TWO expansion packs, so I'm not too worried, though it may be a long wait. Remember SC1 didn't have lurkers either until the expansion.
Part of me thinks that bliz held back some units on purpose so they would have things to "add" in the expansion.
this is bullshit though. As consumers we shouldnt put up with this shit. Zerg should be as complete as the other 2 races at launch of the 1st game. Not to mention that if each expansion adds the same amount to each race, zerg will still always be behind.
The game should be as complete as possible at launch and then blizzard adds new units after months and months of metagame development reveals holes in each race's arsenal. It's bullshit that zerg has 5x more holes than the other 2 races.
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On April 19 2010 06:58 dhardisty wrote:
Remember SC1 didn't have lurkers either until the expansion.
Remember, that terrans didn't have medics, and protoss didn't have corsairs until the expansion. Now, compare it to sc2. What would happen to zerg, if terran would get medics first, and zerg wouldn't get lurkers? I will tell you : absolute rape.
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I've been playing Zerg lately and although I am not a good player games always seem to repeat, fast expand, mass econ and then depending on what the enemy is doing mass either roach/hydra or muta/ling. I haven't had the chance to get tier 3 units unless I'm crushing my opponent, if I try to tech to tier 3 it's only because my enemy is going colossus or thor.
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i definitely think some things could be added to z, 1. Banelings should be able to roll down cliffs 2. I'd like to see some better detections, maybe a unit (maybe infestors) that can detect anything on the ground while its burrowed (it can feel tremors like spider mines used to) 3. give hatcheries some kind of buff maybe anti air like a spore attack or something, hatcheries feel a little week compared to nexus and cc! the queen is great but can be picked off and it has to be built, yet cc and the nexus seem like they are harder to kill than hatcheries and you cant disable there abilities by killing a queen (and nexus has shields and timewarp, cc has scan,mule, death turrets, can lift off with scvs and terran has building upgrades for armor and toss can upgrade shield. Or maybe the queen just needs a stronger anti air attack. In any case I feel like these are just fine tunings and you may have more sweeping changes in mind.
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Big problems I'm seeing with zerg are;
1) Lack of a AoE-range attack unit
2) Infestor is a poor replacement of the defiler, poor damage output, and lost its consume + dark swarm ability.
3) Overseer's? Really? The crap why do my detectors have to cost x2 as terran AND protoss?
4) Lack of an early AA unit (IE HYDRA TEIR 1)
5)Roach is just a changed hydra. It can only attack ground, but has a fast Regen rate.... underground??
6) Why is it that the main arsenal of the zerg force is located at lair tech?? Its where the bulk of the upgrades for units are and the main part of army composition is at.
Of course... All these problems and more will be fixed day 3 of starcraft 2 when the REAL pro mod is released ^^
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If i remember correctly there where some charts with player/race distribution shown at TL a few weeks ago, which was amazingly even. i wont be surprised if that will change if things stay as they are now and more and more players eventually switch races.. as i said before, i dont really think its imbalanced/unfair.. i just think the zerg gameplay tends to get boring after a while, due to its lack of options/actions, and it seems i'm not quite alone with it..
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EPT
